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The Aftermath Last Night

Discussion in 'Mike Rinders Blog' started by RSS Feed, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    No, it isn't. There's been quite a lot of discussion since you returned with your agenda to handle and reform us to your way of thinking.
  2. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    To be honest,
    I would bet that the number of people embracing the idea he pushes a similar ( if not the same) agenda is high.

    It's not at all discarded in my mind.
    The reasons are the close similarity with Marty Rathbun turning out to OSA COS
    Alanzo was a Rathbun fan at the time
    There is a proeminent top exec closely involved in children abuses and it's Marty ( according to testimonies about RPF)
    Alanzo has never since called Marty to tell his "crimes" ; no critics regarding Marty who seems to be the only one (+ Miscavige) who are left alone. Never mentionned as being among the few top exec ordering abuses.
    Alanzo came back when planets are aligned with Scientology desperate attempts to discredit Aftermath and proeminent critics.
    He came back in Emma"s life at a vulnerable time and then back on the board to persue his mission.
    He doesn't contribute to provide with informations but only pushes the same smearings even when prooved to be false or unfounded.
    Never apologizes for wrong accusations but instead fabricates new one...
    Links on fair gaming COS websites on his blog
    Doesn't answer questions neither really discuss but mainly stir shit and creates agitation and drags lot of attention to read his posts.
    Post a lot of threads and jumps in any other discussion related to critics and aftermath ( only)
    Asking for truth but is not interested in it, or discard it when is provided with
    And on and on and on...

    We may ask Tory for a thorough analysis of all Alanzo's posts..she is good at that.

    I challenge people to bump old posts regarding RPF, abuses, fair gaming to see how Alanzo is still really concerned...
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
    tesseract likes this.
  3. Tanchi

    Tanchi Patron with Honors

    Thanks for the link. It warms my heart that an environment of care and support started from one video. RIP Miss Bonnie.
    Type4_PTS, Veda, lotus and 1 other person like this.
  4. George2

    George2 Patron

    I thought the show was very moving. ot, I like that I have "ignored" Alonzo as it seems he keeps derailing the discussion at hand. He sort of takes it over and it gets irritating. But obviously, "ignore" isn't a solution for people who are not signed in.
  5. Lynn Fountain Campbell

    Lynn Fountain Campbell Silver Meritorious Patron

    Back when I was a Class 8, I believed I was helping people, and I thought I was exempt from all the criticism people had of Scientology and its abuses. After all, I was "helping people," right? It's only now that I've processed the whole experience that I realize what was actually happening. I lucked out, in that I never had a pc who needed real professional help. As talk therapy went, I was pretty good at it, because I cared about the pc and had a decent comm cycle. And people do get some benefit from having a caring person really listen to them and pay attention to what they have to say.

    But when you go into session and give a "motivator-ish" origination, the auditor is going to go for "what overt did you commit just before that?" I did it all the time as an auditor, and as a preclear I had it done to me. According to the tech, that's what you're supposed to do. But I now know "the tech" is not the cure-all it's cracked up to be.

    One time as a pc, I was trying to tell about a series of bad incidents I was experiencing. The auditor kept going for "what overt, etc." and there wasn't one. It didn't occur to me to put an end to that line of questioning by making something up or diving past track, so the session was going nowhere. And I was looking for real help with the situation. I finally just said something like, "Look, I know there's supposed to be an overt there, but there's also such a thing as reality." And I FNed on it, which gave the auditor a chance to bail out of the session -- which he did.

    But asking me for an overt wasn't getting it for me. Pop psychology calls it victim-blaming. I don't know what the "tribal narrative" is. I just appreciate all the attention the show has brought to Scientology's abuses. People have to understand what's going on before anything can realistically be done about it. It takes a lot of time and a lot of repetition. Some of it is so unbelievable that people have to get over that, before they can even take in what's being said -- let alone do anything about it.

    Have you ever tried to explain Scientology's abuses to somebody who never heard of it before?
    Flur, Type4_PTS, Glenda and 1 other person like this.
  6. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    I tried watching the finale on rutube yesterday but there was a lot of lag so I reckon I'll wait a few days then try again. In the mean time could you (or anyone else) please post a brief synopsis of what was covered? Thanks!
  7. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Yes, first time in 25 years,
    It happened 2 weeks ago that I discuss that with a social worker who is on course to complete a psychotherapist licence.

    Bad idea.
    I only told that the stuff mentionned on the show is true. She asked me questions and when I mentionned I worked in the high administration and had to escape...whooooooooooo I suddenly saw in her eyes that I look like a flying saucer and conspiracies believer.

    Will never do that again..will only say: look at the show or read on internet to know the truth, but no mentions or answers regarding my personnal experience.

    They may think of all the exposed sexual abuses and beatings and that we were part of it...this point shall have been better explained according to the involvement level.

    We all knew there was neglecting, but for most of us it didn't occurred in our mind there were child molesting neither RPF till we went in the SO..and decided to blow.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  8. Glenda

    Glenda Crusader

    I watched Aftermath Finale last night. I tend to watch these things from two perspectives. Through the eyes of someone who was deeply in all-things-scientology and, best I can, how the general audience will view it. Neither perspective is more important than the other to me. I lived through it and I now live in the real world.

    From a personal view I found it very moving and thought-provoking. There are abuses within the scientology culture and they are covered up and dealt with internally which is always a dangerous position for any group to take. Mike said something near the beginning of the show which really resonated with me. He said (not his exact words, I am paraphrasing here) that scientology has a bubble universe around it. That it is paramount to protect the inner bubble of scientology but not serve the genuine well-being of the individual. Anyone that is seen to be, or is, a liability to the organisation has to be dealt with internally. A lid has to be put over events no matter what. This is very in alignment with my own scientology experience.

    During the show the subject of covering up suicides came up. That was hard for me to watch. I was involved in this God awful practice. Protect the group at all costs in an area of life that is extremely fragile. The inner bubble protection racket is strong around suicides. People literally disappear from the group and no one in the group ever finds out that person has suicided. How crazy is that? How evil is that? How dark! I can't think of one other group that would not tell its members of the "unfortunate death" of one of its members and offer some sort of respect and remembrance for the deceased person, their family/friends. Besides the practice being completely inhumane, it is also dangerous. Why? If scientology, a group that claims all things decent, blah, blah, blah, can virtually nullify the existence of a member of its group because that person took their own life in a way that may reflect badly on scientology, what else it is capable of? If scientology can set about to lie and deceive the family of a member of scientology that has suicided, a family that is possibly at its most vulnerable (with shock and usually powerful grief) then it is a system that needs to be dismantled. No decent society should tolerate this type of dark conduct. It is wild stuff when you really step back and recognise how seriously fucked up scientolgy behaves.

    From the general audience perspective, which I tend to feel Aftermath is mainly aimed it, I have the pleasure of saying the show has worked. It doesn't matter about all details of story content (though the brave souls that spoke on this show deserve a round of applause. It takes guts to do what they all did.) Scientology, the entity, comes up looking like a big bully, that lies. Which is the truth, it is. Scientology has been thrown into the light, a place it has never wanted to be, a place Hubbard never intended the group to find itself. Mum and Dad Citizen are talking in their living rooms, in the tea rooms at work, to people like me even. After the first series ran and it eventually aired on TV here in New Zealand some people in my life started discussing things with me in ways that were meaningful for all of us. We are still talking. It is very refreshing.

    So, the lights are on and the dialogue is happening. The producers and participants of Scientology The Aftermath should be proud. I am proud of them. And grateful.
  9. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I can surely understand the problems in getting people in mainstream society to understand this stuff, and aftermath does a better job of that than pretty much any other attempt I've ever seen.

    But in creating that understanding that non-scientologists can easily grasp, sometimes - like right here - the understanding that is given is not the truth.

    Asking for overts, from a Scientology point of view is 'putting the pc at cause", as I'm sure you remember. It's based on a (in my opinion failed) theory that all humans are timeless, immortal, omniscient & omnipotent thetans, and by putting them back at cause, they can find relief. That's what Scientology believes, as you know. And that's why they do what they do in the situations you describe.

    But because Scientology is an ideology to be followed, and not at all a philosophy, these procedures are idiotically and catastrophically applied to children in instances of child rape. And then ethics officers demand that no female ever uses the word "rape". Things like that begin to emerge in the culture of Scientology.

    But to say this is "victim blaming" and "victim shaming" built into the tech of Scientology - is not the truth.

    Donald Trump and his surrogates all claimed "NO COLLUSION! NO OBSTRUCTION!" when the Muller report came out and, as Rudy said "simple wins".

    But it isn't the truth.

    The first casualty of war is the truth. As a long time Ex, I came to see that this kind of oversimplification was simply lying about Scientology. And that was bad for me as an Ex personally, over time.

    So now, I'd rather have the truth.

    Wouldn't you?

    Or are you still at war?
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
    Flur likes this.
  10. freethinker

    freethinker Sponsor

    Well what are you doing?
    Type4_PTS likes this.
  11. Lynn Fountain Campbell

    Lynn Fountain Campbell Silver Meritorious Patron

    So if asking for overts is "putting the pc at cause," why wouldn't it work for children as well? You can't have it both ways. It either works or it doesn't.

    And I'm just going to ignore the question about war. You gotta be kidding.
    Bill and Type4_PTS like this.
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Asking for "overts" - and requiring that "overts" be confessed - was tried out during 1952, and then implemented fully in the early 1960s onward.

    In 1958, Hubbard wrote that inability to withhold reduces IQ.

    A few years after that "having withholds" was almost as bad as being an "SP." He knew what he was doing.

    Years later, Hubbard confided in both David Mayo and Bill Franks that the preoccupation with "overts" was a means of keeping people IN Scientology.

    It was a control gimmick.

    You can dress that pig in a ventriloquist dummy tuxedo and dance around it, but it's still a pig.

    By the way, you haven't answered He-mans question re. Scientology being a cult on the 'Worst thing you can do...' thread.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Of course it doesn't work. It has all these horrific side effects, and gets used politically and idilotically. And when someone is clearly doing worse, well then the process is unflat and "what turns it on turns it off." In practice, Scientology is a freaking disaster.

    But for our discussion here - It doesn't matter whether it works.

    It matters whether Scientology is victim-blaming and victim-shaming, as Aftermath is claiming.

    Your experience matters. You were there. You applied this to people as a highly trained Scientology auditor. Were you victim-blaming and victim-shaming when you were applying this tech?
  14. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    Let me guess Marty deranged BT's showed up on the thread spreading his non-sense to try to discredit the value of any positive review.

    Your take on it was just so accurate and your view on why we don't see it was of great insight.
    Some people , not doing well, are brought to hit the wall, instead of being helped, ( like a psychologist or social worker would do) are forced to look for unexisting crimes and wrongdoings.

    That makes good candidates for the next service: introspection rundown and baby watch.

    Anyway, thank you for your auditor input regarding how the pseudo-tech handle challenging times.
    And also, for giving toilet paper to people in need.

    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  15. Lynn Fountain Campbell

    Lynn Fountain Campbell Silver Meritorious Patron

    When I was applying that tech, I had no concept of victim-shaming/victim-blaming. That was a pop psychology concept, which was totally outside the bubble reality I was in. What is your point?
  16. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    My point is that it is not true that you were victim shaming and victim blaming when you were asking for overts as an auditor.

    And that truth is no longer important to you.

    You're sticking with the Aftermath tribal narrative. Whatever they say - you forward and defend now. Whether it's true or not.
  17. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    But that previous truth was built on falsehoods that were not totally known at that moment, and just maybe aren't fully known yet.
  18. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    When you were a kid, did you believe in Santa?
  19. Lynn Fountain Campbell

    Lynn Fountain Campbell Silver Meritorious Patron

    And you are sticking with your unsubstantiated theories. Whether they are true or not.

    The "truth" I knew as an auditor was not the whole truth. And what is this "tribal narrative" you keep talking about? Are you just pissed because I'm not in your "tribe"? FYI, I'm not in anybody's "tribe." I make it a point to stay on good terms with everyone in the ex community, though you are making that difficult right now.
    dchoiceisalwaysrs likes this.
  20. No One

    No One a girl is no one