The Anatomy of a LRH Apologist: Steve Hall of Scientology-cult.com

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
I wish more people who personally met Hubbard and knew him really well came out and enlightened us all now in 2010. People like Mayo and Broeker, I suppose. But I guess they are too scared or something. Or something. Have a nice life you two. Hope you found the way to live with yourself.
P.S. Oh, I forgot, as an advanced OT's you can always spot the source of enthurbulation and stay away from it. Never mind. Peace.
P.P.S. On the second thought, aren't you SP's too? We can be one happy SP family. But you probably signed too many papers or what.
Disregard. Them lawyers.

I’m not a persona like Mayo or Broeker (both of whom I knew) but I did know El Ron and Mary Sue personally and have written thousands of words about that experience here on ESMB in the last 7 months or so.

Face:)
 

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
I’m not a persona like Mayo or Broeker (both of whom I knew) but I did know El Ron and Mary Sue personally and have written thousands of words about that experience here on ESMB in the last 7 months or so.
Face:)

Have you ever written a short summation of the two? :confused2:
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Have you ever written a short summation of the two? :confused2:

No, I haven't. I have mostly written about events, interactions and actions that I observed, knew about or was part of in order to give context to the opinions that I given about them, the SO and Scn. My posts #’s 74 and 84 on the “Power of Source” thread were the first two I made re: El Ron “in action” around 7 months ago. I have made well over a dozen, some similar to these two and some more general in overview, since that time…mostly on the Apollo ’73 thread and a few on the “LRH Thumbnail Sketch” thread.

I have sought to give context to my opinions regarding El Ron and Mary Sue.

Face :)
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Axiom142 said:
The people you have mentioned have done a tremendous job of reaching those still in the CoS who would probably not have listened to anything that your or I would have said.


Well, for starters you can see the number of people that post on Rathbun’s blog and Scientology-cult. It is clear from what they have said, that many still consider themselves Scientologists and consider ESMB a ‘natter-board’. In addition, I have spoken to several Scns who have told me that the public declarations by Rathbun, Hawkins et al, were instrumental in getting them to look at the truth.

Obviously I cannot give you exact figures and we will probably never know how many people have been reached in this way. But it is clear from what I have heard from others and what I have seen myself, that there is a hard core of Scns who refuse to listen to any critics of Scientology or Hubbard. If they won’t listen, it is difficult to communicate to them.

But, if Marty Rathbun, Steve Hall and the others can get a foot in the door, then I think that is a good thing.

Axiom142 said:
If they publicly criticise Hubbard unduly, then they will most likely lose their target audience.

so getting people out consists of keeping them in?

Clearly Rathbun doesn’t want people to leave Scientology. Therefore we can’t expect him and others of his belief to try and make Scns into ‘exes’.

Personally, I’m not too bothered either way – I just want everyone to look honestly at the truth and make up their own minds. If they do that and decide to stay in the CoS, well they deserve what is coming their way.

Axiom142 said:
I don’t see how you can claim this as a ‘fact’. I haven’t seen any proof that they are colluding on this. Please don’t confuse supposition with facts.

LOL Ax - you just did the exact same thing.

But I also thought Alanzo is, I think, mistaken about Jeff Hawkins' position. Actually I don't think any of this people are colluding on some sort of PR front. DM is the preferred target because Hubbard is dead and gone. Miscavige is the guy runing things.

Actually I don’t think I did, for reasons stated above. I never used the word ‘fact’ in relation to my own argument. Clearly it is my opinion which obviously I believe to be accurate, but I am not claiming it to be an incontrovertible fact.

And besides, my arguments are clearly much more intelligent, relevant, consistent and cohesive than Alanzo’s. :whistling:

Axiom142
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
From what I read, and, as much as possible I read all of Marty's blog; Scientology Cult less so, the people posting there were *already* out of the 'Church'. Often against their will. What Marty *has* done, and, I congratulate him for that, is give them a place to *voice* their thoughts. Without Marty they would *still* be out, but they would not be speaking out.

That's not chopped liver, but, it's a huge difference to 'getting people out'.

And, I think there are very legitimate concerns about what he intends to *do* with his new flock. Use them to enhance his own position? Prepare a BBQ? If you think you *know* his goals, I'd love to hear what you think they are and why you think that.

Zinj
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Well, for starters you can see the number of people that post on Rathbun’s blog and Scientology-cult. It is clear from what they have said, that many still consider themselves Scientologists and consider ESMB a ‘natter-board’. In addition, I have spoken to several Scns who have told me that the public declarations by Rathbun, Hawkins et al, were instrumental in getting them to look at the truth.

Obviously I cannot give you exact figures and we will probably never know how many people have been reached in this way. But it is clear from what I have heard from others and what I have seen myself, that there is a hard core of Scns who refuse to listen to any critics of Scientology or Hubbard. If they won’t listen, it is difficult to communicate to them.

But, if Marty Rathbun, Steve Hall and the others can get a foot in the door, then I think that is a good thing. [snip]


Axiom142

I've been promoting the FZ for a decade. Nearly all the people on Marty's blog are people I didn't reach. He's without doubt getting people out of COS, or publically stating they are out.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
I've been promoting the FZ for a decade. Nearly all the people on Marty's blog are people I didn't reach. He's without doubt getting people out of COS, or publically stating they are out.

He's now close to *demanding* that they 'state that they're out', regardless of how long they have been out. Because, *not* to attest to Marty is promoting Miscavige. Silence is not optional.

For those who've been hidden for years, there is no longer an excuse; Marty will protect them.

Zinj
 

Feral

Rogue male
Have all of you read the book "Madman or Messiah" by Bent Corydon? I started it last night and am nearly done with it. I don't see how anyone who has read it could ever think L Ron Hubbard was innocent. I was in Scientology since 1969 and said hasta lavista in 2009.

Hey, welcome to the board mate!

I read Bent's book, as well as John Atack's and the Bare Faced Messiah books.

The evidence between those three books is very damning as well as incredibly consistent, that is once you eliminate some of Nib's input.:whistling:

I was done with Scientology after reading them, what a disappointment.! :lol:
 
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Terril park

Sponsor
He's now close to *demanding* that they 'state that they're out', regardless of how long they have been out. Because, *not* to attest to Marty is promoting Miscavige. Silence is not optional.

For those who've been hidden for years, there is no longer an excuse; Marty will protect them.

Zinj

This is a bad thing?
 

Veda

Sponsor
Hey, welcome to the board mate!

I read Bent's book, as well as John Atack's and the Bare Faced Messiah books.

The evidence between those three books is very damning as well as incredibly consistent, that is once you eliminate some of Nib's input.:whistling:

I was done with Scientology after reading them what a disappointment. :lol:

Poor Nibs.

The first "Ron's Org" SP Declare I ever read was the one on L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (Nibs). It was in a notebook owned by the person who is currently the Senior C/S for Ron's Orgs in the USA:

"Sector Ethics Order:

"Ron De Wolfe, alias Nibs Hubbard, alias L. Ron Hubbard Junior

"...He has recently come under direct influence of the infamous suppressive implanter known as Xenu, subject of Ethics Order No. 1 (written in 1967 by Elron Elray)...

"Astar Paramejgian

"Deputy Sector Commander"


The use of "alias" for dramatic effect is another echo of L. Ron Hubbard, whose (perceived) enemies were invariably communists, criminals, or sex perverts, for example, according to the founder of Scientology, his 2nd wife was a Russian spy, sent in to run a Covert Operation on Dianetics:

"Sara Komkovadamanov, alias Northrup..."

Good ol' Captain Bill. And to think his Ron's Orgs flying saucer cult is the number one FZ group. http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html Oh well.

As for Ron Jr., or Nibs, and his contribution to books, there's not very much. There is a total of five pages of material, from Ron Jr., in the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'. All the material used in "Madman?' was supported by others' testimony and by court's evidence.

There's a confusion re. the 'Penthouse' article, as stories told to Ron Jr., by his father, were presented as being believed by Ron Jr. Ron Jr. belived some of it, not all of it, and was uncertain about some things. That's one category: Things he was *told* by his father. His father *told* him (he was 17 in 1950) that he was selling secrets to the Russians, just as his father told Scientologists so many things. And, not unlike the Scientologists who are still "sorting it out" and recovering, so did Ron Jr. attempt to do so.

Of course, Ron Jr. had the problem of having been Fair Gamed, by his father and Scientology, for most of his life. The two "buttons" that Scientology Inc. went after were "family, wife, children," and "money, jobs, etc." Scientology Inc. was relentless.

Ron Jr. was told many things by his father, but he also *witnessed* his father's behavior: his father throwing dinner plates against walls, his father drinking heavily, and his father using drugs; he witnessed his father's fascination with the writings of Aleister Crowley, and with the darkest aspects of the occult, witnessed his father's use of self-hypnosis with the 'Affirmations' - the 'Affirmations' beginning in the late 1930s. He also witnessed his father secretly stuffing cash into shoe boxes, then telling people he had no money, and he witnessed the contempt with which his father regarded Scientologists, the Scientologists to whom his father had repeatedly lied.

All this, and more, has since been confirmed.

However, Ron Jr. was told so many tall tales by his father, that he spent the rest of his life trying to sort it out, and free himself from his father's manipulations. And he said so.

After the birth of Ron Jr.s youngest son in the early 1970s, who was born with Downs syndrome, Scientology Inc. - which was already tightening the screws on Ron Jr. with an assortment of covert dirty tricks, such as messing with his credit rating, having him fired from jobs, and even taking pictures of his kids walking to school, etc. - approached him to "settle, and "make peace." He did, for a while, and then began to speak out again in the early 1980s. A few years later, he had surgery related to diabetes, come under further harassment, was penniless again, and settled again, withdrawing from involvement with the (then) half written 'Messiah or Madman?' book.

Ron Jr.'s name does not appear on the 2nd (1992), 3rd (1996), or Russian language (2005) editions of 'Messiah or Madman?'
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Poor Nibs.

The first "Ron's Org" SP Declare I ever read was the one on L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (Nibs). It was in a notebook owned by the person who is currently the Senior C/S for Ron's Orgs in the USA:

"Sector Ethics Order:

"Ron De Wolfe, alias Nibs Hubbard, alias L. Ron Hubbard Junior

"...He has recently come under direct influence of the infamous suppressive implanter known as Xenu, subject of Ethics Order No. 1 (written in 1967 by Elron Elray)...

"Astar Paramejgian

"Deputy Sector Commander"


The use of "alias" for dramatic effect is another echo of L. Ron Hubbard, whose (perceived) enemies were invariably communists, criminals, or sex perverts, for example, according to the founder of Scientology, his 2nd wife was a Russian spy, sent in to run a Covert Operation on Dianetics:

"Sara Komkovadamanov, alias Northrup..."

Good ol' Captain Bill. And to think his Ron's Orgs flying saucer cult is the number one FZ group. http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html Oh well.

As for Ron Jr., or Nibs, and his contribution to books, there's not very much. There is a total of five pages of material, from Ron Jr., in the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'. All the material used in "Madman?' was supported by others' testimony and by court's evidence.

There's a confusion re. the 'Penthouse' article, as stories told to Ron Jr., by his father, were presented as being believed by Ron Jr. Ron Jr. belived some of it, not all of it, and was uncertain about some things. That's one category: Things he was *told* by his father. His father *told* him (he was 17 in 1950) that he was selling secrets to the Russians, just as his father told Scientologists so many things. And, not unlike the Scientologists who are still "sorting it out" and recovering, so did Ron Jr. attempt to do so.

Of course, Ron Jr. had the problem of having been Fair Gamed, by his father and Scientology, for most of his life. The two "buttons" that Scientology Inc. went after were "family, wife, children," and "money, jobs, etc." Scientology Inc. was relentless.

Ron Jr. was told many things by his father, but he also *witnessed* his father's behavior: his father throwing dinner plates against walls, his father drinking heavily, and his father using drugs; he witnessed his father's fascination with the writings of Aleister Crowley, and with the darkest aspects of the occult, witnessed his father's use of self-hypnosis with the 'Affirmations' - the 'Affirmations' beginning in the late 1930s. He also witnessed his father secretly stuffing cash into shoe boxes, then telling people he had no money, and he witnessed the contempt with which his father regarded Scientologists, the Scientologists to whom his father had repeatedly lied.

All this, and more, has since been confirmed.

However, Ron Jr. was told so many tall tales by his father, that he spent the rest of his life trying to sort it out, and free himself from his father's manipulations. And he said so.

After the birth of Ron Jr.s youngest son in the early 1970s, who was born with Downs syndrome, Scientology Inc. - which was already tightening the screws on Ron Jr. with an assortment of covert dirty tricks, such as messing with his credit rating, having him fired from jobs, and even taking pictures of his kids walking to school, etc. - approached him to "settle, and "make peace." He did, for a while, and then began to speak out again in the early 1980s. A few years later, he had surgery related to diabetes, come under further harassment, was penniless again, and settled again, withdrawing from involvement with the (then) half written 'Messiah or Madman?' book.

Ron Jr.'s name does not appear on the 2nd (1992), 3rd (1996), or Russian language (2005) editions of 'Messiah or Madman?'

I understand that the book "What to Audit", named later "A History of Man" consisted of incidents from teen-aged Nibs - as the sole pc on whom this "research" was done - going "whole track" while on the meter with Ron and Mary Sue, while high on Benzedrine.

Where did I read that?
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Poor Nibs.

The first "Ron's Org" SP Declare I ever read was the one on L. Ron Hubbard Jr. (Nibs). It was in a notebook owned by the person who is currently the Senior C/S for Ron's Orgs in the USA:

"Sector Ethics Order:

"Ron De Wolfe, alias Nibs Hubbard, alias L. Ron Hubbard Junior

"...He has recently come under direct influence of the infamous suppressive implanter known as Xenu, subject of Ethics Order No. 1 (written in 1967 by Elron Elray)...

"Astar Paramejgian

"Deputy Sector Commander"


The use of "alias" for dramatic effect is another echo of L. Ron Hubbard, whose (perceived) enemies were invariably communists, criminals, or sex perverts, for example, according to the founder of Scientology, his 2nd wife was a Russian spy, sent in to run a Covert Operation on Dianetics:

"Sara Komkovadamanov, alias Northrup..."

Good ol' Captain Bill. And to think his Ron's Orgs flying saucer cult is the number one FZ group. http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html Oh well.

As for Ron Jr., or Nibs, and his contribution to books, there's not very much. There is a total of five pages of material, from Ron Jr., in the book, 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?'. All the material used in "Madman?' was supported by others' testimony and by court's evidence.

There's a confusion re. the 'Penthouse' article, as stories told to Ron Jr., by his father, were presented as being believed by Ron Jr. Ron Jr. belived some of it, not all of it, and was uncertain about some things. That's one category: Things he was *told* by his father. His father *told* him (he was 17 in 1950) that he was selling secrets to the Russians, just as his father told Scientologists so many things. And, not unlike the Scientologists who are still "sorting it out" and recovering, so did Ron Jr. attempt to do so.

Of course, Ron Jr. had the problem of having been Fair Gamed, by his father and Scientology, for most of his life. The two "buttons" that Scientology Inc. went after were "family, wife, children," and "money, jobs, etc." Scientology Inc. was relentless.

Ron Jr. was told many things by his father, but he also *witnessed* his father's behavior: his father throwing dinner plates against walls, his father drinking heavily, and his father using drugs; he witnessed his father's fascination with the writings of Aleister Crowley, and with the darkest aspects of the occult, witnessed his father's use of self-hypnosis with the 'Affirmations' - the 'Affirmations' beginning in the late 1930s. He also witnessed his father secretly stuffing cash into shoe boxes, then telling people he had no money, and he witnessed the contempt with which his father regarded Scientologists, the Scientologists to whom his father had repeatedly lied.

All this, and more, has since been confirmed.

However, Ron Jr. was told so many tall tales by his father, that he spent the rest of his life trying to sort it out, and free himself from his father's manipulations. And he said so.

After the birth of Ron Jr.s youngest son in the early 1970s, who was born with Downs syndrome, Scientology Inc. - which was already tightening the screws on Ron Jr. with an assortment of covert dirty tricks, such as messing with his credit rating, having him fired from jobs, and even taking pictures of his kids walking to school, etc. - approached him to "settle, and "make peace." He did, for a while, and then began to speak out again in the early 1980s. A few years later, he had surgery related to diabetes, come under further harassment, was penniless again, and settled again, withdrawing from involvement with the (then) half written 'Messiah or Madman?' book.

Ron Jr.'s name does not appear on the 2nd (1992), 3rd (1996), or Russian language (2005) editions of 'Messiah or Madman?'

Thanks for summarizing all that. Not everyone knows the background on Nibs but they should. The harassment can be relentless. I understand why he accepted the gag in the end. He helped the critic movement a lot and gave more than most.

For the lurkers, here are some videos of L Ron Hubbard Jr when he was speaking out.
 
P

Painter

Guest
It's easy to read a lot of pure nastiness in this stuff. A tendency to categorize and condemn people according to this arbitrary scale.

I have to wonder, why did no one ever think to question or challenge this batshit-crazy "tone scale" of Hubbard's?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
It's easy to read a lot of pure nastiness in this stuff. A tendency to categorize and condemn people according to this arbitrary scale.

I have to wonder, why did no one ever think to question or challenge this batshit-crazy "tone scale" of Hubbard's?

Few Scientologists actually question the tone scale.

The idea that one emotion is more "pro-survival" than another emotion - and therefore is "higher on the scale" than others - leads to emotional stultification, and eventually to severe robotism.

Emotions exist to focus a person on things that are important to that person's survival.

EVERY emotion does that. And they are all equally effective.

There is no "scale" of emotions. To denigrate or de-value one emotion over another is to cut off large chunks of yourself, from yourself.

It is NOT a healthy practice.

It does not lead to sanity.

Hubbard was either extremely emotionally immature, or he intentionally sought to control the thoughts, attitudes and emotions of Scientologists in order to get them to do only what he wanted.

And maybe both.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
One of the primary purposes behind the 'Tone Scale' is the implication that 'Human Emotion and Response' is an 'external to me' factor and therefore something to be *used* rather than experienced.

Yes, being able to control your emotions can be valuable, but, to do so by denying, externalizing and thereby *removing* them from 'self' is to align your 'self' with Scientology *against* your own feelings.

Zinj
 

AnonKat

Crusader
Buddhism and Emotions

One of the primary purposes behind the 'Tone Scale' is the implication that 'Human Emotion and Response' is an 'external to me' factor and therefore something to be *used* rather than experienced.

Yes, being able to control your emotions can be valuable, but, to do so by denying, externalizing and thereby *removing* them from 'self' is to align your 'self' with Scientology *against* your own feelings.

Zinj

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva-p/wheel237.html

The Place of Emotions in Buddhism

Emotions are generally regarded in the mind of the Buddhist as aspects of our personality that interfere with the development of a spiritual life, as unwholesome states ethically undesirable, and roadblocks to be cleared in the battleground between reason and emotion. In keeping with this perspective emotions are described as states of "agitation" or "imbalance."[1]

While a large number of emotional states discussed in Buddhist texts fit in to this description, are we to accept that all the emotions are of this sort? Within the field of experimental psychology, some accept that emotions can be both organizing (making behavior more effective) and disorganizing. In the field of ethics, the place of emotions in the moral life is a neglected subject, but a few voices in the contemporary world have expressed opinions which bring out the relevance of the psychology of emotions to moral assessment, reminding us of the very refreshing discussions in Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics. In these discussions too there is an acceptance of the creative role of emotions in the moral life of man. It may be that there is an emotional aspect of man that distorts his reasoning, feeds his prejudices and darkens his vision, but should we not look for an emotional facet in man that expands one's horizons of thinking, breaks through our egotism, sharpens a healthy sense of the tragic and evokes the ennobling emotions of sympathy and compassion for fellow man?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva-p/wheel237.html


hubbard_buddha.jpg
 

omnom

Patron with Honors
I understand that the book "What to Audit", named later "A History of Man" consisted of incidents from teen-aged Nibs - as the sole pc on whom this "research" was done - going "whole track" while on the meter with Ron and Mary Sue, while high on Benzedrine.

Where did I read that?

I believe it was amphetamines. It is mentioned in Messiah Or Madman, and on the special "Secret Lives" (http://www.xenu-directory.net/scienos/hubbard1.html - also http://www.xenu.net/entheta/entheta/media/tv/secret/secret2.html)

I have an old copy of that book, and it is pretty wild and incomprehensible.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
"I saw a Google Alert for something on a blog on Ex-Scn yesterday. I don't read it because for the most part it is entheta, and is owned by OSA."

Steve Hall "Thoughtful"
5/14/2010
Scientology-cult.com
 
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