The anti-Scientologist

StatPush

Patron
I agree with you in that the CoS should be allowed to exist. But they shouldn't be allowed to defraud people as they've done on a routine basis for over 65 years now.

While there's some truth in what you write above, there's huge differences between the CoS and the Catholic Church.

You don't have to pay the Catholic Church hundreds of thousands of dollars to find out what their beliefs are. You can find out for free before you get involved.

You don't have to pay ANY money whatsoever to be saved in accordance with their beliefs.

They don't have mandatory events where they block the doors in case you attempt to leave before seeing the registrar, demanding you pay to buy a new building for them.

Compare what the Volunteer Ministers do compared to Catholic Charities:
https://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/
I agree, the lies and deception really irk me. There needs to be a Public Health Warning. Buyer Beware.

Regarding the Catholic Church, its certainly less demanding and far less dangerous. The comparison is a bit unfair, since I believe Scientology to be a pop psychology multi level marketing business pretending to be a religion.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
I agree with you in that the CoS should be allowed to exist. But they shouldn't be allowed to defraud people as they've done on a routine basis for over 65 years now.
One could argue that the fact that the Co$ has continued to defraud people for well over 65 years is the exact reason it should not be allowed to exist. With or without our beloved "hairman of the board".

 

StatPush

Patron
A nice stream of thought.

Miscavige makes the religious equivalency argument on Nightline (His last public TV interview = Fail).

The problem is that the true science behind Scientology is the gradual (or not so gradual) progression of the individual from a New Age activity into an exploitative high control activity that can operate under the laws of the land without regard for the laws of the land.

Except for Islam most other respectable religions don't have a fundamentalist doctrine like KSW or Sharia that demand the installment of a global government based on their internal judicial and organizational systems. As a Muslim try going into a Mosque and saying you don't believe other people should be converted and there shouldn't be Sharia Law. As a Scientologist try going into an org and saying you don't believe in global clearing or making enough OTs to save the planet and that there shouldn't be KSW, that you don't believe Scientology spiritual and management and study technology should be used in all mental health services, businesses and governments, and schools.

In application Scientology ideas about the spirit and the mind are a cynical excuse for control.

We now see businesses applying similar techniques. Weinstein's use of NDAs, Google and Facebook's intrusive access and biased control of information and ideas. If Scientology is the "Astrology" of any future "science" it is this.

I think the Rinder/Cognita article speaks directly to the existential nature of being a Scientologist because being a Scientologist is the process of going from naive New Ageist to understanding Hubbard's exploitative high control end game. Somewhere during this process the individual either retains and recovers their original moral compass or becomes a clone of Hubbard's moral compass or finds that their original moral compass and Hubbard's moral compass were always aligned. So the real EP (End Phenomena) or VFP (Valuable Final Product) of Scientology is someone whose moral compass has been tested and reconfirmed.

I can relate to much of what you've said. The thought of a fanatical, "unreasonable" KSWer in-charge of the justice system is frightening.

In addition to Weinstein et al,, I would add Trump. The common denominator seems to be they are all bullies.

Interesting observation on the moral compass. Towards the end of time in Scn, I really felt like I was losing my sense of humanity. I had turned into a good, no-sympathy Scnist. Horrible.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
I sincerely believe that anyone who brings their kids into Scientology should be removed as custodians of those kids. If the stories of what's been going on for 65 years isn't enough to prove that, I don't know what whacked out, crazy parenting could be defined as. Period.

I also believe that anyone who practices auditing, whether they warn the victim that they might go crazy, or whether the victim willingly wants to, should be put to prison for illegal practice of mental health.

I believe that any organization that practices shunning or disconnection in any way, should be illegal.

The fact that these points still needs to be argued is, put plain, stupid. I don't see how anyone can defend the actual practice of being a Scientologist, with all that it brings.

Whether its in the "church", "Free-zone" or the "Indies". Doesn't matter, its been proven far too many times that what Scientology is, it's crazy, it's dangerous to the mind and unhealthy as fuck. I'll try and remember that the next time I try to reach for the middle ground.

The people who are, or were, responsible for keeping the mindfuck rolling for over 65 years, if and when possible, should be held responsible by the authorities. Whenever that's possible. I see no point defending or going after anyone in particular, it is what it is. I can personally resent that some of us got out easy, off the hook, but it is what it is.

I know a lot of people disagree with me on some or all of it, but that's how I see it, but what's the point arguing where we all stand in this for well over 5 weeks, apart from ensuring Alanzos crusade doesn't get the "final say" in how this beautiful smorgasbord of ideas ended?

I'd rather focus on pin pointing the mindfuck we all know as Scientology and trying to help people get out if it, rather then trying to define what an anti-whatever is.

That and boobs. Never underestimate the power that a perfect cleavage has on people.

Anyhows, tomorrow I'll be good again, got a list of threads I'm looking for, some of that mind blowing shit that helped me go free some odd ten years ago. Hopefully it'll help someone today. If not, I flippin love rummaging through those old threads.

Also, I'm not trying to stir some more shit up. I just wish we could all just sit back and enjoy the ride as the Church implodes in a spectacular fashion. I guess somewhere along the way to that, people forgot why most of us ended up here. Either that or the only ones of us left are the nutty ones, I dread being one of the nutty ones so I prefer to think of us as the hardcore crowd.

The stayer uppers all night long.

EDIT: Before I forget, @Alanzo and any others who believes that there's an "anti side to this, when you drive past an org or converse with a Scientologist: Should the kids and the people who go crazy be protected, or is it the Scientology practitioners who should be protected?
 
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Gib

Crusader
Easy tiger. Let's step back and think about this.

So only organisations based on truth should be allowed to exist? And who is going to make that determination?

Would be you comfortable applying the same criteria to, let's say, the Catholic Church? One could easily claim that Christian Heaven does not exist, that its all a scam designed to control you and take your money.

But, any reasonable person would recognise that this is something Christians believe in. It is a personal, subjective belief.

While Scientologists may be reluctant to admit that belief plays a role in their practice, I would argue all auditing is a personal, subjective experience. And when they attest to the State of Clear, they believe they have achieved a profound spiritual state. The church confuses the matter by stating auditing level EPs that appear to be objective. And regarding Clear, they look for "evidence" before certification. This, I feel, comes from it's schizophrenic nature (science or a religion). It portrays itself as a science when it serves them. And it portrays itself as a religion when it serves them.

When addressing a customer, its all "sciency" (exact application of "technology", laws, axioms, logics, etc). Upon completing an auditing level, the customer has some assurance that their results are verified and certified by a team of highly trained "experts".

However, if you were to apply other scientific principles to the practice (e.g. peer review, critical inspection, testing, etc), they would flip and become a "religion" and accuse you of discrimination. I think its even a crime to criticise or ridicule a Clear.

Hubbard knew his work would not stand up to real scientific rigour. Hence, the "religion angle".

At best, Scientology is a pseudo-science.

So, should we not allow any pseudo-science to exist?

Let us not forget the close relationship between Astrology and Astronomy.

Maybe Scientology is the Astrology of some future science?
wtf are you are talking about. For gawds sake.

I don't think you were ever in?

Mike Rinder constantly posts on his blog how the so called church of scientology is still trying to clear planet.

Well, it ain't happening, don't you agree?
 

Gib

Crusader
I agree with you in that the CoS should be allowed to exist. But they shouldn't be allowed to defraud people as they've done on a routine basis for over 65 years now.

While there's some truth in what you write above, there's huge differences between the CoS and the Catholic Church.

You don't have to pay the Catholic Church hundreds of thousands of dollars to find out what their beliefs are. You can find out for free before you get involved.

You don't have to pay ANY money whatsoever to be saved in accordance with their beliefs.

They don't have mandatory events where they block the doors in case you attempt to leave before seeing the registrar, demanding you pay to buy a new building for them.

Compare what the Volunteer Ministers do compared to Catholic Charities:
https://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/
I disagree, the COS should cease to exist.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Have any of you people here actually read the latest law suits against scientology? They actually spell out the bullshit of hubbard and his organization:

https://www.scribd.com/document/426...suit-against-Scientology-Complaint#from_embed
Thanks for the link. I had read half the complaint and just finished it now.

The main idea I get from the (alleged) detailed behaviour of the perps defendants -- which, in my experience, all seems perfectly common and "business as usual" -- is their overarching consideration of being above the law.

Paul
 

StatPush

Patron
wtf are you are talking about. For gawds sake.
I talked about a lot of things. Will need specifics.
I don't think you were ever in?
30 years, 6 years on staff
Mike Rinder constantly posts on his blog how the so called church of scientology is still trying to clear planet.

Well, it ain't happening, don't you agree?
Of course they aren't clearing the planet.
 

Gib

Crusader
here's something to consider.

Do other churches send you mail thru the USPS?

Only scientolgy does.

Has anybody here received mail from the mormons, from the Christians, etc?
 

StatPush

Patron
here's something to consider.

Do other churches send you mail thru the USPS?

Only scientolgy does.

Has anybody here received mail from the mormons, from the Christians, etc?
Okay, this is getting silly.

So, CoS should not be allowed to exist because they use a government service, a service that is available to all?

Listen, I will agree with you that the church should not be allowed to lie, deceive or defraud the public. But, there are rules and processes which govern how a democratic society deals with this type of activity.

With every Clear they make (whether real or imagined), is them demonstrating they are "clearing the planet", albeit slowly. But, all of this is protected religious activity.

What is not protected activity is financial and credit card fraud. Just in the past year, Tony Ortega reported several instances of overt financial fraud orchestrated by church staff members. These were recent events, months old, and well within the statue of limitations. There were witnesses, real victims (a couple of them elderly), plus a complete paper trail including submitting a financial application with intent to defraud. Effectively, they were caught "red-handed". Mind you, this is not new behaviour for the church. From past experience I believe the church has engaged in this type of activity for decades.

So why no criminal charges? Why was there no call for criminal charges?

It is ironic that people have been accusing CoS of being an criminal organisation, but have been unable to bring actual charges. And here's present day, well documented criminal activity that goes unprosecuted.

What is the deal with that?
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Okay, this is getting silly.

So, CoS should not be allowed to exist because they use a government service, a service that is available to all?

Listen, I will agree with you that the church should not be allowed to lie, deceive or defraud the public. But, there are rules and processes which govern how a democratic society deals with this type of activity.

With every Clear they make (whether real or imagined), is them demonstrating they are "clearing the planet", albeit slowly. But, all of this is protected religious activity.

What is not protected activity is financial and credit card fraud. Just in the past year, Tony Ortega reported several instances of overt financial fraud orchestrated by church staff members. These were recent events, months old, and well within the statue of limitations. There were witnesses, real victims (a couple of them elderly), plus a complete paper trail including submitting a financial application with intent to defraud. Effectively, they were caught "red-handed". Mind you, this is not new behaviour for the church. From past experience I believe the church has engaged in this type of activity for decades.

So why no criminal charges? Why was there no call for criminal charges?

It is ironic that people have been accusing CoS of being an criminal organisation, but have been unable to bring actual charges. And here's present day, well documented criminal activity that goes unprosecuted.

What is the deal with that?
Yes, COS commits financial and credit card fraud.

You seem to be less well-read on its humanitarian crimes, though, such as human trafficking, child abuse, child neglect, elder abuse and neglect, extortion, blackmail and ripping apart families. These are also well documented. Links to dox are on this and many other threads, or you can just Google "Scientology lawsuits" or "Scientology crimes." Crimes are not protected activity, even for a supposed "church."
 

StatPush

Patron
Yes, COS commits financial and credit card fraud.

You seem to be less well-read on its humanitarian crimes, though, such as human trafficking, child abuse, child neglect, elder abuse and neglect, extortion, blackmail and ripping apart families. These are also well documented. Links to dox are on this and many other threads, or you can just Google "Scientology lawsuits" or "Scientology crimes." Crimes are not protected activity, even for a supposed "church."
Let's not jump to conclusions. I did not say financial and credit card fraud where their only crimes. I was purposefully staying focused.

Your accusations of "human trafficking, child abuse, child neglect, elder abuse and neglect, extortion, blackmail and ripping apart families", may be true, however, until you have an actual criminal conviction in a court of law, they remain accusations. Over the years many have tried (and failed) in civil court to establish this, but its a long way to a criminal conviction.

My point is credit card fraud, as criminal charges are concerned, are low-hanging fruit. And there appears to be compelling evidence (in the recent cases), where there was a reasonable chance of a criminal charge. It would be a small victory, and could establish a precedent for future cases.

Everyone is convinced that CoS is a criminal organisation, guilty of real crimes - lots of them. Other than Snow White, there has been nothing which actually supports this assertion (no charges, no convictions). Immorality is not a crime.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Okay, this is getting silly.

So, CoS should not be allowed to exist because they use a government service, a service that is available to all?

Listen, I will agree with you that the church should not be allowed to lie, deceive or defraud the public. But, there are rules and processes which govern how a democratic society deals with this type of activity.

With every Clear they make (whether real or imagined), is them demonstrating they are "clearing the planet", albeit slowly. But, all of this is protected religious activity.

What is not protected activity is financial and credit card fraud. Just in the past year, Tony Ortega reported several instances of overt financial fraud orchestrated by church staff members. These were recent events, months old, and well within the statue of limitations. There were witnesses, real victims (a couple of them elderly), plus a complete paper trail including submitting a financial application with intent to defraud. Effectively, they were caught "red-handed". Mind you, this is not new behaviour for the church. From past experience I believe the church has engaged in this type of activity for decades.

So why no criminal charges? Why was there no call for criminal charges?

It is ironic that people have been accusing CoS of being an criminal organisation, but have been unable to bring actual charges. And here's present day, well documented criminal activity that goes unprosecuted.

What is the deal with that?
You have to thoroughly understand the banking system to understand why. Collections are big business.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Let's not jump to conclusions. I did not say financial and credit card fraud where their only crimes. I was purposefully staying focused.

Your accusations of "human trafficking, child abuse, child neglect, elder abuse and neglect, extortion, blackmail and ripping apart families", may be true, however, until you have an actual criminal conviction in a court of law, they remain accusations. Over the years many have tried (and failed) in civil court to establish this, but its a long way to a criminal conviction.

My point is credit card fraud, as criminal charges are concerned, are low-hanging fruit. And there appears to be compelling evidence (in the recent cases), where there was a reasonable chance of a criminal charge. It would be a small victory, and could establish a precedent for future cases.

Everyone is convinced that CoS is a criminal organisation, guilty of real crimes - lots of them. Other than Snow White, there has been nothing which actually supports this assertion (no charges, no convictions). Immorality is not a crime.
We are ex-Scientologists. We saw, we experienced, we know.

You, on the other hand, wish to refute all the testimonies and court cases that were settled out of court or are still ongoing.

There is a lot of reading to do on ESMB and elsewhere where docs have been provided. If you want to stay focused on financial and credit card fraud, that's no problem. If you are interested in actually knowing and not guessing or presupposing innocence about Scientology's other crimes, they are well documented.
 

TheOriginalBigBlue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Okay, this is getting silly.

So, CoS should not be allowed to exist because they use a government service, a service that is available to all?

Listen, I will agree with you that the church should not be allowed to lie, deceive or defraud the public. But, there are rules and processes which govern how a democratic society deals with this type of activity.

With every Clear they make (whether real or imagined), is them demonstrating they are "clearing the planet", albeit slowly. But, all of this is protected religious activity.

What is not protected activity is financial and credit card fraud. Just in the past year, Tony Ortega reported several instances of overt financial fraud orchestrated by church staff members. These were recent events, months old, and well within the statue of limitations. There were witnesses, real victims (a couple of them elderly), plus a complete paper trail including submitting a financial application with intent to defraud. Effectively, they were caught "red-handed". Mind you, this is not new behaviour for the church. From past experience I believe the church has engaged in this type of activity for decades.

So why no criminal charges? Why was there no call for criminal charges?

It is ironic that people have been accusing CoS of being an criminal organisation, but have been unable to bring actual charges. And here's present day, well documented criminal activity that goes unprosecuted.

What is the deal with that?

It isn't a matter of irony. 



It is an effective strategy.





Most people when thinking of membership in a religion do not associate it with the deliberate creation of a body of documentation that protects the religion from litigation. I think the first thing they have people do now is after watching an introductory video about Scientology they sign something saying they understand and agree Scientology is a religion. Scientologists proceed to sign similar and progressively stricter agreements and waivers when they start another service or start services at another org. Each org is set up as a separate corporation. Scientologists sign NDAs and bonds both as public and staff. With each service completion Scientologists write up "wins" saying how great it was which can be used to counter a later change of position. So being a Scientologist is literally a contractual relationship.
 



Scientology is a full immersion milieu environment where things like language, associates and time become dedicated to Scientology to the exclusion of other things.



Scientologists are indoctrinated into KSW which is by definition fundamentalism. They believe that it is their only path to spiritual freedom and if they cross Scientology they will be condemned to not remembering past lives or not being able to control reincarnation for eternity. 


It is difficult to find Scientology policy. KSW is their most senior (public) policy but if you run a Google image search for it it is extremely difficult to find in it's entirety. By all rights they should be handing it out like The Way To Happiness booklets but they seem to be embarrassed to reveal policies that every public Scientologists should have access to.


Scientologists lie (tell an acceptable truth) and obfuscate to protect the organization and other Scientologists. It is policy that Scientologists cannot sue or report other Scientologists to non-Scientology authorities. They must go through internal procedures. This makes it difficult to find reliable witnesses.



There are a lot of coercive and manipulative techniques embedded in Scientology. If you cross them they declare you a Suppressive Person and everyone must disconnect from you. The internal judicial procedures are harsh, arbitrary and based on a lot of woo. Their Fair Game policy is essentially gang stalking. Scientologists give them a lot of personal and embarrassing or even incriminating information in auditing and security check sessions and staff life history questionnaires. This can be used against them.



There is a lot of internal compartmentalization of information, censorship, misinformation, redirection and shifting of blame. They use confidential special projects to conduct operations outside of normal organizational lines. Different strata and experience levels don’t know what the other is doing and don’t see or know about actionable crimes.



Scientology is an asset stripping operation which depletes resources needed to conduct a protracted lawsuit. People leaving staff may have neglected medical needs and their priority is to simply survive and get reestablished in the outside world.

Scientology cuts short or completely replaces outside education. Education is a factor in deciding to take action or upon a legal strategy.


Scientology has developed legal strategies to weaponize the legal system and operate without good faith.



Scientology safe points or co-opts local law enforcement and agencies by giving them donations, having them participate in events, placing their people on committees and other PR efforts.



Public awareness of Scientology as a cult and it’s abuses has increased significantly in the last 10 - 15 years. Hubbard said that the complexity of Scientology served as a kind of defense and he was right. For anyone who has tried to explain it to a non-Scientologist it is extremely difficult and gets into the weeds quickly and public awareness and support for issues is a factor in litigation.



Scientology uses religious cloaking. The IRS has given them tax exempt status and they can claim First Amendment protection. They form alliances with religious groups and co-opt other group’s agendas to lobby in support of legislation that protects them or opposes national and international restrictions.



In other words it is more like a mafia than a church except as far as government agencies are concerned it is a piker compared to other mafias and government agencies have a very poor track record of dealing with larger more violent mafias as it is. The thing that sets Scientology apart from other mafias is it developed an effective program to operate in the open regardless of the "rules and processes which govern how a democratic society deals with this type of activity."
 
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