The Biggest Crime - To Hubbard

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, he set it up so that the charade will self-perpetuate. That is what a great deal of the organizational and ethics policy is about. Keeping it all chugging along.

I also view him as a "master of manipulation", and say again, that ANY aspiring dictator would do well to study Hubbard's Church of Scientology.

++++++

We can only hope that no aspiring dictator would study Hubbard or the church of Scientology.

Hubbard rarely openly displyed his tricks, god help the world if someone is as cunning.Big Brother.
 

Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
I posit this hypothesis: Hubbard somehow, through his own mind, amassed an incredible amount of energy through his magical meanderings. Maybe he did hook into some kind of alchemical force through his OTO days (let us not ask how he came to "rise above the bank") and he saw some amazing things happen but, he was still a novice.

(I know a person who follows Crowley who does not respect Hubbard as he believes Hubbard tried to take shortcuts on the road to enlightenment via magic.)

What he couldn't make happen by postulate or magic, he made happen by force. Sooner or later, it was mostly force. Trying to make his vision happen by force (and lies) drove him even more insane. In the end he died hoist by his own petard.

We, unlike Hubbard, are always channeling our energies to ensure that we take the "other guy" into account.

Imagine the raw energy you have at your disposal when you operate from the rule: "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

or.................... he's a conjured up Tulpa. :coolwink:

Excellent Hypothesis.

Very interesting about your crowley friends views.

Its strange when you say that about Hubbards Postulates and then viewing his visions coming through his policies intentionally or unintentionally with force.

He said he was thinking of us but wasnt thinking of us.

sounds like Tarvu.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I know a person who follows Crowley who does not respect Hubbard as he believes Hubbard tried to take shortcuts on the road to enlightenment via magic.) What he couldn't make happen by postulate or magic, he made happen by force. Sooner or later, it was mostly force. Trying to make his vision happen by force (and lies) drove him even more insane. In the end he died hoist by his own petard.

We, unlike Hubbard, are always channeling our energies to ensure that we take the "other guy" into account.

Imagine the raw energy you have at your disposal when you operate from the rule: "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

I read a great deal by and about Crowley. And I also have the view that Hubbard screwed up along the path of magic. He succumbed to a common pitfall, where the practitioner of magick falls victim to the urgings of EGO and self, and uses the techniques of magic for "personal gain", instead of for "enlightenment" and the "benefit of others".

Crowley, while making the statement about doing what thou wilt, also couched it within a larger philosophy that was well aware of the consequences of following the darker path of self-aggrandizement.

Magic, when used for the eradication of the personal ago, and as a tool aimed towards spiritual enlightenment, often in conjunction with others in shared rituals, can be a "good thing".

But, it IS a tough road to travel, and many slip off into using magick for personal gain to the detriment of others. Most views of magick also accept the notion of Karma, and the idea "to be careful what you wish for", is very real.

Using the imagination to create realities is a neutral activity. It is the basis of all "magick". In some strange way it may be the basis over everything you experience, in all time and space, even as you sit and read this. It is apparently an ability of the mind that can be learned and improved. Few ever actually do it to the degree that it can be done (learning how to control and discipline the concentration and imagination through extensive drilling and practicing). Part of the idea is that the same creative power of God that thought the entire universe into existence exists in each of us, to a lesser degree, as "creative imagination". Crowley's magick fits into a much larger pre-existing Kabbalistic tradition which goes WAY BACK in time.

In the end the ONLY thing that separates the "white magician" from the "black magician" is WHAT one chooses to imagine. And, does it hurt or help other people?

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Jachs

Gold Meritorious Patron
So Gadfly, are you saying Hubbard at some point flipped from misuse of the magik of greatest good to more good for self ?

would this have been 63/65?

about Crowley ,yes, i believe this too, i havent read anything much by crowley,
after reading a bit of Alan C Walters and the ascension experience accompanied with a
negative chaos as Scn would call hitting the next level- "dramatisation of case" (your effect)

This EGO theme runs through from the early years of LRon though.

Could it just be his core trait to gain admiration.

or could it just be the Dichotomy ying and yang of his core being that LROn never left unguarded ?

No compassion ( inhumane-show me where he spoke with sincere emotion) versus its opposition full obsession for Admiration ,
once an 'OT 8' in England said to me- this is my favorite lecture where Ron displays some emotion, i never picked up on that till now-as mans best friend he always had that didnt he, by the mere fact he was saving mankind from the nuclear war and into spiritual harmony, like any good general takes the bull by the horns never displaying emotion?

Mother Teresa had selfless compassion without Ego and tons of Admiration flowed her way, as did Gandhi, buddha.


.
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
So Gadfly, are you saying Hubbard at some point flipped from misuse of the magik of greatest good to more good for self ?

No, personally, I think he was nuts from the very beginning!

would this have been 63/65? See above. I don't doubt that certain people around Hubbard were infected with a certain VERVE and exuberence at various times, but his luncay seems apparent to me at all stages.

about Crowley ,yes, i believe this too, i havent read anything much by crowley, after reading a bit of Alan C Walters and the ascension experience accompanied with a negative chaos as Scn would call hitting the next level- "dramatisation of case" (your effect)

This EGO theme runs through from the early years of LRon though.

YES, indeed, the EGO theme has always been a major component of the personality known as L. Ron Hubbard.

Could it just be his core trait to gain admiration.

I have no idea, other than he himself stated that admiration was the most desired particle in this universe. But also, I have the opinion that Hubbard put MANY things out there that he didn't necessarily believe himself, at least not in the same way as he presented them. Was he a vampire for admiration? Was he addicted to the admiration flow (like certain celebrities seem to be)? Maybe. I can see how it could make sense, but also, I determined a long time ago that it is utterly impossible to know completely (or even well) the mind/soul of another person (especially considering that each of us rarely even know ourselves to anything other than a mild superfical degree).

or could it just be the Dichotomy ying and yang of his core being that LROn never left unguarded ?

:confused2:

No compassion ( inhumane-show me where he spoke with sincere emotion) versus its opposition full obsession for Admiration , once an 'OT 8' in England said to me- this is my favorite lecture where Ron displays some emotion, i never picked up on that till now-as mans best friend he always had that didnt he, by the mere fact he was saving mankind from the nuclear war and into spiritual harmony, like any good general takes the bull by the horns never displaying emotion?

:confused2:

Mother Teresa had selfless compassion without Ego and tons of Admiration flowed her way, as did Gandhi, buddha.


.

See my answers above in BOLD, and below.

Yes, but whereas Mother Theresa, Ghandi and Buddha were the recipients of extensive admiration, I doubt that there was the slightest small fiber in any of them that DESIRED or NEEDED or WANTED to be this recipient of admiration.

I see it, admiration, NOT as something to strive for from others, not as something to desire, but as something to direct OUT from yourself at other aspects of life and the universe. It has no real value as an INFLOW, other than as an accidental, sometimes slightly inconvenient and possibly annoying, by-product of having done something that others view as truly wonderful.

Those type of people (Buddha, Mother Theresa, Ghandi, and others NOT including Hubbard), when receiving admiration, look at you, wave their hand while implying that what he or she did was NOT that big of a deal, and direct your admiration and thanks to God (or some version of that idea).

At a Scientology event, the MC is forever waving the hand towards some picture of LRH whenever applause or admiration occurs. Hubbard set it up even at events, in perpetuity, that HE and ONLY he will get the "hip-hip-hoorays" and accolades.

But, to a higher and cleaner being, when admiration comes his or her way, he or she waves the hand so that the audience gazes and admires right into the eyes of the Infinite.

The SOURCE of all-that-is (God, the Infinite) is VERY different than some temporary Earth fellow named L. Ron Hubbard!

To me, a desire for admiration is slimy. It is a contrivance of the human EGO. The desire to help and benefit others, along a path of pure and brutal TRUTH, which is WAY higher than any desire for admiration, may result in admiration, but it is not basic or intended.

+++++++++++++++
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
In some tape on the PDC Hubbard states that, and I paraphrase, "all a thetan is trying to do is mock up things and get other thetans to agree with the mock-ups". I think the statement is accurate to a certain degree, but I might rewrite it as "all the human EGO or fleeting personality is trying to do is mock up things and get others to agree with the mock ups".

I've found it an extremely worthwhile experience to pop in EGO everywhere "thetan" is used...as in:

When Hubbard said that, "The thetan is basically putting out mock-ups", he meant it as a most BASIC and funadamental ability or thing that any thetan does (far below even this specific universe). He also added in his comment, "the thetan creates time and space, so that the thetan can then create other things in this time and space".

...becomes...

"The EGO is basically putting out mock-ups,"..."the EGO creates time and space, so that the EGO can then create other things in this time and space".

Very eye-opening for me.

I consider Scn to actually be a very accurate description of the EGO, by the EGO, for the EGO. EGO worship...which may be a self redundant word...

Great thread! Keep it going!!
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
I posit this hypothesis: Hubbard somehow, through his own mind, amassed an incredible amount of energy through his magical meanderings. Maybe he did hook into some kind of alchemical force through his OTO days (let us not ask how he came to "rise above the bank") and he saw some amazing things happen but, he was still a novice. (I know a person who follows Crowley who does not respect Hubbard as he believes Hubbard tried to take shortcuts on the road to enlightenment via magic.) What he couldn't make happen by postulate or magic, he made happen by force. Sooner or later, it was mostly force. Trying to make his vision happen by force (and lies) drove him even more insane. In the end he died hoist by his own petard.

Yes, but whereas Mother Theresa, Ghandi and Buddha were the recipients of extensive admiration, I doubt that there was the slightest small fiber in any of them that DESIRED or NEEDED or WANTED to be this recipient of admiration.

I just had to put these two quotes together as they are perfect examples of negative and positive enantiodromia.

Just like "The North Wind and the Sun" where the wind tries to force the jacket off the traveler by blowing harder and harder...forcing the traveler to clutch tighter the jacket...whereas the sun beams warmth...causing the traveler to remove it...

The_North_Wind_and_the_Sun_-_Wind_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_19994.jpg

The_North_Wind_and_the_Sun_-_Sun_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_19994.jpg


WARNING! CHEESY QUOTE TO FOLLOW!

The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.

However, I call it "positive" and "negative" enantiodromia because I have only seen enantiodromia referred to in a "negative" sense as in irony, hypocrisy, contradictory, "become what you resist when you fail", etc. But there also exists a "positive" aspect of enantiodromia that really seems to only emerge when studying spirituality...as in Gadfly's quote above...or in achieving something by non-direct means...as in it is NOT the hardest swing that drives the ball the furthest.

Positive can mean unlooked for but none the less desired attributes, as in Gadfly's example. Positive can also be "sought" but by non-direct means, as in relinquishing control over the mind...allowing it to "free flow"...thus gaining control by transcending the incessant pictures, movies, scripts, dialogues, etc.

Some of the most interesting people I met weren't being interesting at all...rather they were interested and constantly pursuing that interest. Contrast that with the truly boorish who are obsessed with being interesting.

Enantiodromia is the most absolute relevating tool I've stumbled across in terms of enlightenment and spirituality...I truly mean stumbled and it's the positive aspect of it that serves. To my knowledge, that aspect of it has never before been revealed.
 

Badass

Patron with Honors
<sniip>

I had the notion that possibly Hubbard, more than anything else, really couldn't tolerate rejection.

In some tape on the PDC Hubbard states that, and I paraphrase, "all a thetan is trying to do is mock up things and get other thetans to agree with the mock-ups". I think the statement is accurate to a certain degree, but I might rewrite it as "all the human EGO or fleeting personality is trying to do is mock up things and get others to agree with the mock ups"........

But, either way, Hubbard no doubt was mocking up an entire universe of ideas (the Scientology paradigm) and working VERY hard to get others to agree completely and without reservation. I have some opinions about it all being part of an intention and plan based on "magic", but that doesn't really matter for this idea.


+++++++++++++++++++++

I had already posted this but I couldn´t help myself and I´m doing it again....

In the PDC #1 (1952) Hubbard describes the MEST universe as an enforced agreement, and is remarkable how 59 years later The CoS is doing the same things Hubbard said the MEST universe was doing...

You can even exchange the term MEST universe with the term CoS on that lecture!!!

Check out this little sample in the very words of the Old Man:

PDC Lecture #1
WHAT TO BE DONE IN COURSE
1 December 1952 66 MINUTES
(Includes only selected paragraphs, my comments in red)


"Because you are studying the anatomy of universes—the construction, maintenance and destruction of universes of various kinds and dimensions (The CoS can be seen as a universe construed by The Old Man)”…..

The laws which compose the CoS universe, as stated by Ron, are the basic agreement of all Scientologists.
It is perfectly acceptable to agree with the workability of any scientific (or not very scientific) model, as long as we remember that it is only a model useful in certain aspects of life or work, and maintain our freedom to disagree with it and create different models at will, but when we accept to be forced into complete agreement with it, and consider that model to be an absolute truth, we become its slaves, losing our ability to think outside of it.



"..... So I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m actually asking you to find out what you agreed with and what you have been agreeing with all this time in order to bring you to such a point of agreement that you’re actually here and think that you should only be here and in the MEST universe and so forth—and examine that track of agreement so that then you can undo it.”

Scientology apparently started as a method of undoing the track of agreement which enslaved people into this universe, according to The Old Man studies, to restore their freedom, personal integrity and self-determinism, but then The CoS became a method of enforcing agreement, to turn them into slaves of the CoS, with no personal integrity or self-determinism, again.

".... The one thing you mustn’t do in the (MEST universe) (CoS) is know. You must agree, not know. And if you agree enough, it seems to say—if you just agree enough—why, you’ll just get along better and better and better. And sure enough, you apparently do, up to a certain point. And then it’s a case of “agree or else.” And then it’s the case of “You will agree. We don’t care if you’re agreeing—we’re just going to go right on punishing you. And sure, you’re willing to do all this. We don’t care if you’re willing or not—we’ll just go on punishing you.”


The basic trick of the Old Man was to make Scientologists agree (believe) on things which were not necessarily part of reality, but part of the system of things he created. He became “source”, and that meant he was the only one able (authorized) to look. (KSW).

"....So, what do we have here then? We have an agreement which starts to fade out. And the interesting proof of this pudding is the fact that you can take your preclears at random who fall into the category of V and you can spot with them—you could just give them a test and find out which one of them was in the firmest agreement with the (MEST) (CoS) universe. And having found this out, what would you do? You’d look at a tough case—that boy’s a tough case. Now, his deepening of agreement is just fastening him more and more solidly to MEST.(CoS). And he’s getting more and more MESTy and he’s less and less able to control MEST, until one fine day he’s either mad or very dead. And try to process this por guy”…..
“It (Scientology) has been under development for a long time and has actually been a progressive development and examination of the agreements which came to bring about the MEST universe, and then became the science of how agreements are made, and then became what are the beings who make these agreements and how can you start all this, from these basics. And that’s where we are now.

And boy, if you don’t think you can’t do something with that, you ought to quit. Because you can do terrible things with this, you can do terrible things with this—just horrible—too grim for words. The only thing that’s a saving grace is as a person comes way up the Tone Scale, his ethic level also comes way up. And is that fortunate!”

Really? Jeezzz…..how high was the old man on the Tone Scale at the end of his game?

Well, it seems as if The Old Man got tired of playing the old game of freeing thetans, and decided to face the MEST universe all by himself and take the prize out of its hands, by simply turning over all its slaves into a new universe in which he was “source”: The CoS.
And he was using the same trick he said the MEST universe was using: gradiently enforced agreement……………..

Ahhh! and of course I also consider misleading to agree that the MEST universe is a trap.....it just places one at effect...same as desiring admiration......
 
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guanoloco

As-Wased
I had already posted this but I couldn´t help myself and I´m doing it again....

In the PDC #1 (1952) Hubbard describes the MEST universe as an enforced agreement, and is remarkable how 59 years later The CoS is doing the same things Hubbard said the MEST universe was doing...

You can even exchange the term MEST universe with the term CoS on that lecture!!!

Check out this little sample in the very words of the Old Man:

PDC Lecture #1
WHAT TO BE DONE IN COURSE
1 December 1952 66 MINUTES
(Includes only selected paragraphs, my comments in red)


"Because you are studying the anatomy of universes—the construction, maintenance and destruction of universes of various kinds and dimensions (The CoS can be seen as a universe construed by The Old Man)”…..

The laws which compose the CoS universe, as stated by Ron, are the basic agreement of all Scientologists.
It is perfectly acceptable to agree with the workability of any scientific (or not very scientific) model, as long as we remember that it is only a model useful in certain aspects of life or work, and maintain our freedom to disagree with it and create different models at will, but when we accept to be forced into complete agreement with it, and consider that model to be an absolute truth, we become its slaves, losing our ability to think outside of it.



"..... So I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m actually asking you to find out what you agreed with and what you have been agreeing with all this time in order to bring you to such a point of agreement that you’re actually here and think that you should only be here and in the MEST universe and so forth—and examine that track of agreement so that then you can undo it.”

Scientology apparently started as a method of undoing the track of agreement which enslaved people into this universe, according to The Old Man studies, to restore their freedom, personal integrity and self-determinism, but then The CoS became a method of enforcing agreement, to turn them into slaves of the CoS, with no personal integrity or self-determinism, again.

".... The one thing you mustn’t do in the (MEST universe) (CoS) is know. You must agree, not know. And if you agree enough, it seems to say—if you just agree enough—why, you’ll just get along better and better and better. And sure enough, you apparently do, up to a certain point. And then it’s a case of “agree or else.” And then it’s the case of “You will agree. We don’t care if you’re agreeing—we’re just going to go right on punishing you. And sure, you’re willing to do all this. We don’t care if you’re willing or not—we’ll just go on punishing you.”


The basic trick of the Old Man was to make Scientologists agree (believe) on things which were not necessarily part of reality, but part of the system of things he created. He became “source”, and that meant he was the only one able (authorized) to look. (KSW).

"....So, what do we have here then? We have an agreement which starts to fade out. And the interesting proof of this pudding is the fact that you can take your preclears at random who fall into the category of V and you can spot with them—you could just give them a test and find out which one of them was in the firmest agreement with the (MEST) (CoS) universe. And having found this out, what would you do? You’d look at a tough case—that boy’s a tough case. Now, his deepening of agreement is just fastening him more and more solidly to MEST.(CoS). And he’s getting more and more MESTy and he’s less and less able to control MEST, until one fine day he’s either mad or very dead. And try to process this por guy”…..
“It (Scientology) has been under development for a long time and has actually been a progressive development and examination of the agreements which came to bring about the MEST universe, and then became the science of how agreements are made, and then became what are the beings who make these agreements and how can you start all this, from these basics. And that’s where we are now.

And boy, if you don’t think you can’t do something with that, you ought to quit. Because you can do terrible things with this, you can do terrible things with this—just horrible—too grim for words. The only thing that’s a saving grace is as a person comes way up the Tone Scale, his ethic level also comes way up. And is that fortunate!”

Really? Jeezzz…..how high was the old man on the Tone Scale at the end of his game?

Well, it seems as if The Old Man got tired of playing the old game of freeing thetans, and decided to face the MEST universe all by himself and take the prize out of its hands, by simply turning over all its slaves into a new universe in which he was “source”: The CoS.
And he was using the same trick he said the MEST universe was using: gradiently enforced agreement……………..

Ahhh! and of course I also consider misleading to agree that the MEST universe is a trap.....it just places one at effect...same as desiring admiration......

This smoked! Awesom, Badass! My applause!
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
I believe this is an excellent theory!

I particularly like the theory that it could be related to magic (though you didn't go into that here). Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to continuously state to the cosmos, "I am all powerful. My works will be praised and universally accepted, etc., etc., etc.", only to be shunned and ridiculed?

This would mean that the magic wasn't working or that Hubbard's postulates didn't stick.

The entire philosophy is built around becoming so powerful that your postulates stick. All you have to do is intend. Yet, he couldn't make that happen.

So, the only way he could make this work (seeing as how the universe was not bending to his will) was to start lying and fashioning the world around him to match his postulates, by any means possible.

So, possibly, if the psychiatric community had accepted his ideas with great fanfare and then application, he would have gone on his merry way enjoying the accolades and royalties. He may have been a consultant or continued his research with his now esteemed colleagues in academia but, he would not have started a religion.

Possibly, the religion of Scientology is just one big L. Ron Hubbard ser fac. In this ser fac from hell, he had to have all the pieces make sense. All the "players" on his chess board had exact roles. In his chess game, he was king and was not allowed to lose. If he was losing, that meant there was an adversary to take out.

We can see from Hubbard's early days, that he was not anti-authority and was actually crying out for help. He trusted the "psychs".

After being rejected, he bit off way more than he could chew. Now, starting a movement and then a religion, he enters the realm of having to salvage the world. Hell, being a science fiction writer with a colorful imagination...why not throw in the idea of saving the whole sector, the whole universe.

I posit this hypothesis: Hubbard somehow, through his own mind, amassed an incredible amount of energy through his magical meanderings. Maybe he did hook into some kind of alchemical force through his OTO days (let us not ask how he came to "rise above the bank") and he saw some amazing things happen but, he was still a novice. (I know a person who follows Crowley who does not respect Hubbard as he believes Hubbard tried to take shortcuts on the road to enlightenment via magic.) What he couldn't make happen by postulate or magic, he made happen by force. Sooner or later, it was mostly force. Trying to make his vision happen by force (and lies) drove him even more insane. In the end he died hoist by his own petard.

We, unlike Hubbard, are always channeling our energies to ensure that we take the "other guy" into account.

Imagine the raw energy you have at your disposal when you operate from the rule: "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law".

or.................... he's a conjured up Tulpa. :coolwink:

Led Zeppelin III..."Do as Thou Wilt...So Mete it Be"...

I tried to find a good image of this inscription but there doesn't seem to be one.

I remember seeing one once.

Spooky old Crowley...inspiring Led Zeppelin and Ozzy Osbourne...
 
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