The Church’s latest offer – and why you should take it

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Defenders of the 'Church' are in short supply around here, so, feel free. They only seem to reproduce in captivity.

Zinj
 

DCAnon

Silver Meritorious Patron
This might help break it down a bit. It's from an earlier posting of mine. It gives you some better numbers so you can see for yourself what the expansion is supposed to be vs what you actually are seeing. Hold on to your hats, this is a long post and OMG A WOMAN IS DOING MATH!!! O__O

Scientology lacks any noticeable presence in south america, russia, china, japan, India, most of Africa and the south pacific. So its population density in the rest of the world would need to be higher.

Scientology claims to have 8 to 15 million members worldwide. This number has gone up and down within this same range since the 1970s, each year claiming an enormous expansion.

Number of Orgs/Mission worldwide: approx 350 (based on Scientology.org and other Scientology sources)

Average Number of Scientologists that would be needed in every Org/Mission in the entire world: 22,857 to 42,857
Estimated number of orgs based on working physical locations visited recently: about 150
Average Number of Scientologists that would be needed per Org/Mission for 150 orgs/missions: 53,333 to 100,000


For a comparison:

Scientology claims to have 8 to 15 million members worldwide
Mormon membership worldwide is 12.8 million
Number of orgs within 30 mile radius of DC: 1
Number of missions within 30 mile radius of DC: 1
Number of LDS wards within a 30 mile radius of DC: 40-50
Average ward size: 100-200 members (average)
Members within radius: 4,000-10,000

To prove equivalency, the founding org and Alexandria mission would need a combined membership of 4,000 or more Scientologists

Event space they have rented out twice this year: maximum capacity of 300 people.

Number of Scientologists attending the DC Hubbard B-day event: Less than 100.

~~~Or, how about this? This information was gathered by the American Religion Survey from Trinity College, a respected census program that's been collecting data on religious practitioners for years and is a well respected survey and analysis group.
Original thread: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/15-media/new-religious-identification-survey-41201/

Scientology is classified under "New Religious Movements and Other Religions" and is grouped with New Age, Eckankar, Spiritualist, Unitarian-Universalist, Deist, Wiccan, Pagan, Druid, Indian Religion, Santeria, Rastafarian, as well as those who identify as Free Zone and Independent Scientologists.

"New Religious Movements" have been on the rise, Scientology is right. In 1990, they were 0.8% of the population and now they're 1.2% of the population. A 0.4% rise in the past 18 years. This puts the numbers at 1,296,000 people in 1990 to 2,804,000 people in 2008.

That's 2,804,000 people in the United States in 2008 who are a Scientologist, New Age, Eckankar, Spiritualist, Unitarian-Universalist, Deist, Wiccan, Pagan, Druid, Indian Religion, Santeria, or Rastafarian.

With an estimated 1,525 Scientologists in Canada from a 2001 census (Montreal Mirror - News), 2,507 estimated in Australia from a 2006 census (http://web.uni-marburg.de/religionswissenschaft/journal/mjr/pdf/2004/lewis2004.pdf), 357 in New Zealand in 2007 (UNHCR | Refworld | 2008 Report on International Religious Freedom - New Zealand), 1,781 in the UK in 2001 (http://web.uni-marburg.de/religionswissenschaft/journal/mjr/pdf/2004/lewis2004.pdf), and 5,000-6,000 in Germany (http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/download/SHOW/vsbericht_2005.pdf) I just have to say....

TABLE03.png


....whar u at, Scientology? I honestly can't find this "explosive growth" that you were talking about. Does soliciting donations to buy buildings mean Scientology is growing an expanding, or does actual membership to fill those buildings mean Scientology is growing and expanding? Because, the way the numbers and the actual data is pointing, Scientology isn't doing so well and the number of members they keep touting is a provable lie. Please to be explaining? :)
 

dt2000

Patron with Honors
Wow I missed that defense thread and definitely have two cents of my own to offer in here.

Tommy Davis says, this is not a "deal" or "special offer". He will also tell you that there is no such thing as disconnection in Scientology :melodramatic:

Why don't you ask him about the subject of abortions in the Sea Org and see what he has to say about that.

He will probably tell you that any abortions were on the person's own determination and something they decided to do... Sure pal. Or maybe he will outright lie altogether and say that they don't happen. Who knows.

Furthermore, these buildings that are being renovated and purchased (to remain empty and in some cases not even being renovated yet) are done by donations of many brain-washed "parishioners" who are convinced to donate MILLIONS of dollars.

Here in Albuquerque, a building has apparently been purchased with the huge donations they regged. And you know what? It is sitting empty on Central Ave. They have MAYBE 30 staff (I haven't been in there in quite a while so if I am off by a dozen either way, that's why). Their current building is TINY and the parking lot is empty EVERY.SINGLE.TIME I drive by it. Never more than 3-4 cars and those are usually the same few.

I was in CSI for years, I looked at the international stats week after week (up until 2001). The stats that were shown at events were always WAY different than what I looked at every week. So the PR bullshit that spouts out of Tommy Davis' mouth is just as believable as that to me. He is a puppet of DM and nothing more.
 

masonj

Patron
I was in CSI for years, I looked at the international stats week after week (up until 2001). The stats that were shown at events were always WAY different than what I looked at every week. So the PR bullshit that spouts out of Tommy Davis' mouth is just as believable as that to me. He is a puppet of DM and nothing more.

Hi Laura,

I find it a little bizarre that you have no first hand information for the past 7-8 years, haven't had a conversation with Tommy Davis on the subject of getting through steps to get in good standing, don't know what was said in the conversation he did have but automatically it is "PR bullshit." That's quite an assumption and not exactly an open minded (in the good sense) viewpoint. There's a very interesting lecture which describes what happens when someone thinks they can no longer be part of Scientology, how they consider it is a motivator of magnitude and spend the rest of their lives trying to get even. I mention this as I think you were technically trained enough to know the mechanism - whether you still "believe" in the tech or not. I hope you don't get caught in that rut. However, if everything is as bad as you say, then Scientology should be totally gone in the next couple of weeks and you will have to find something else to complain about.
 

masonj

Patron
Because, the way the numbers and the actual data is pointing, Scientology isn't doing so well and the number of members they keep touting is a provable lie. Please to be explaining? :)

Let's ignore your false statements about the numbers of orgs and missions, the false statement about the lack of presence of Scientology in the various areas of the world you mentioned and the false assumptions as to facts and figures - which only prove that you have no first hand knowledge or experience, have probably never been involved to any extent in the Church - if at all. Assuming that what you say is correct, then the Church is obviously collapsing and should have been gone in a week or two, or at the most a couple of months. So how come you and your masked Anonymous friends haven't been able to destroy the tiny insignificant church like you said you would? They seem to mainly be ignoring you - except for the Anons I've seen getting arrested.
 

Iknowtoomuch

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi Laura,

I find it a little bizarre that you have no first hand information for the past 7-8 years, haven't had a conversation with Tommy Davis on the subject of getting through steps to get in good standing, don't know what was said in the conversation he did have but automatically it is "PR bullshit." That's quite an assumption and not exactly an open minded (in the good sense) viewpoint. There's a very interesting lecture which describes what happens when someone thinks they can no longer be part of Scientology, how they consider it is a motivator of magnitude and spend the rest of their lives trying to get even. I mention this as I think you were technically trained enough to know the mechanism - whether you still "believe" in the tech or not. I hope you don't get caught in that rut. However, if everything is as bad as you say, then Scientology should be totally gone in the next couple of weeks and you will have to find something else to complain about.



Or maybe it's just that Scientology treats their staff like shit and finds it okay to make their lifes miserable. No wonder people leave so much.

I'm sure you have a great justifier for this one as well. Or maybe you'll just use the Nah ah response.:D

Tell me why Scientology is not briming with public at each org!
 

ILived1984!

Patron with Honors
[/QUOTE]
Well, I didn't go to the birthday event. I did hear about it. But if I told you about it, you'd automatically say that whatever was I was told was obviously something that the Church made up, so I won't even repeat what I heard.

But, according to an article I saw posted on this board, they also opened up the renovated Ft. Harrison. How do you explain the $40 million renovated Fort Harrison? Are you going to tell me that they spent $40 million so that no one would come and stay in the hotel? And since the Church is doing so badly, how the hell did they get $40 million? The article said that they're going to do the Super Power Building next. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
[/QUOTE]

How did the CofS get $40 million? Regging, Regging and Regging. You're familiar with Scn? Regging. Whether the money came out of donations, GI or reserves it was all regged, some by public who dish out millions. Who are the public going to stay in the hotel? Ever hear of cannibalizing? Yeah, some new public for FSO are sent there but that's due to an international machine working lower orgs sending public there including those who have been many times. Is this news to you?

Really, I've been to a number of ideal orgs a few years ago while on projects and tours and let me tell you something, they were nothing to write home about and that was after each had their grand openings as shown on int events.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you're doing on this board because if you're on it, you are considered connected with a suppressive group, I believe. I'm not 100% sure but if you tell your e/o or maa that you're posting on here, I don't think they'll really care very much for it.

Also, some of the other members here experienced things less than desireable while on staff or as public and don't want others to experience the same.
 
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Feral

Rogue male
Let's ignore your false statements about the numbers of orgs and missions, the false statement about the lack of presence of Scientology in the various areas of the world you mentioned and the false assumptions as to facts and figures - which only prove that you have no first hand knowledge or experience, have probably never been involved to any extent in the Church - if at all. Assuming that what you say is correct, then the Church is obviously collapsing and should have been gone in a week or two, or at the most a couple of months. So how come you and your masked Anonymous friends haven't been able to destroy the tiny insignificant church like you said you would? They seem to mainly be ignoring you - except for the Anons I've seen getting arrested.

Hey Masonj,

I see you have made up your mind to go back, if you were ever out. That is your choice. I'm sure now that you have made up your mind to be a clam you now need to; "do everything possible to improve the statistics of the group you now have joined" and to "strike a blow to the enemies of the group that one has been pretending to be part of". Go for it old mate, tell us what liars we all are andhow there are serious flaws in our cases and beingness.

I just want you to know what is ahead for you. Are you aware that if you have indeed been out that no matter what you do you will NEVER elig for those OT levels that you desparately want?

Sure they'll take your money and sec check you for literally 100s of hours,then put you on a training PGM and MASSIVE amends (including doing the CofSes dirty work here on the board and elswhere) but when it's all done and you have to face that BofI you will still be painted with that brush.

Those lies on your SP declare just won't wash off. If you were declared for leaving the SO, then I'm afraid you are double damned,they do not want SO members to get the idea that you can do better on the bridge by leaving.

So this is your choice and that is your group, fine, here's a question for you; Are you sure you want to live in a scientology run or 'cleared' planet?

I don't expect the import of this question to hit you just now, just park it and in the next year compare it to the events that unfold before you, OK?
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Let's ignore your false statements about the numbers of orgs and missions, the false statement about the lack of presence of Scientology in the various areas of the world you mentioned and the false assumptions as to facts and figures - which only prove that you have no first hand knowledge or experience, have probably never been involved to any extent in the Church - if at all. Assuming that what you say is correct, then the Church is obviously collapsing and should have been gone in a week or two, or at the most a couple of months. So how come you and your masked Anonymous friends haven't been able to destroy the tiny insignificant church like you said you would? They seem to mainly be ignoring you - except for the Anons I've seen getting arrested.

Masonj -

Report back to base immediately.

We do not want to be verifying the exact number of orgs and missions. You were supposed to be getting OFF of that subject and ONTO the crimes of the critics here. DO NOT PUT PEOPLE'S ATTENTION ONTO THE EXACT NUMBER OF ORGS AND MISSIONS in the world!

That is the way they can prove conclusively on a local level - that everyone can verify for themselves - that our 10 to 12 million Scientologists figure is a lie!

But it's not a lie. Scientology is the fastest growing religion on the planet!

Jesus Christ Masonj. Have you attested to the LRH PRO checksheet?
 

DCAnon

Silver Meritorious Patron
Let's ignore your false statements about the numbers of orgs and missions, the false statement about the lack of presence of Scientology in the various areas of the world you mentioned and the false assumptions as to facts and figures - which only prove that you have no first hand knowledge or experience, have probably never been involved to any extent in the Church - if at all. Assuming that what you say is correct, then the Church is obviously collapsing and should have been gone in a week or two, or at the most a couple of months. So how come you and your masked Anonymous friends haven't been able to destroy the tiny insignificant church like you said you would? They seem to mainly be ignoring you - except for the Anons I've seen getting arrested.

My data is false data? Which data would that be? Instead of using generalized attacks, I'd like to see your math and the unbiased religious surveys cited. :) I'd be most happy to wait, it'll be great to get some real numbers and facts! :happydance: Oh, and just because you don't like something doesn't make it false. I dunno if they taught you that in math class? Just ask for the stats from higher up, I know that you send 'em along every week. I'm sure they'd be happy to show you the numbers and then you can put us all in our place.

The Church IS collapsing. Dunno how long it takes, cancer isn't ever cured overnight. I didn't realize we were working on a Scientology time frame. Next time we decide to take down a corrupt and criminal organization, can you make sure to send us an egg timer or something or we won't know how long we're required to get things done before the buzzer rings. Or make delicious delicious eggs. Either way.

Yes, ignoring us as per LRH's "confront and shatter suppression" tech. It's been absolutely great watching these high tone people who run away and hide, too afraid to communicate, resorting to scary curtains in their correct application of the tech. Can't you see it's working? We're definitely confronted and shattered, my poor little heart has broken into a billion pieces already.

Which arrests would those be? Oh please tell me you're talking about Pubes guy! Wasn't he great? Gross and slimy and maybe a bit hairy, but great. Oh, you're not talking about the 11 Scientologists including Mary Sue Hubbard who were charged with conspiracy against the United States of America for wiretapping, espionage, and theft of confidential government documents, are you? Or that L. Ron Hubbard himself was arrested and convicted of theft in 1948 and in 1978, L Ron Hubbard was found guilty of fraud. He ran from the police and died in exile, a wanted criminal. Or that in 2005, Scientology staffer Gabriel Williams in Mountain View, California was convicted of rape and sexual assault of a minor. The Church of Scientology ordered young girls to live with him that he subsequently attacked and raped in excess of 100 times according to court documents. How about in 2003, Scientologist Reed Slatkin pled guilty to fraud in a massive ponzi scheme and was sentenced to 14 years in prison. What about in 2006 when Scientologist Michael Fitzgerald was arrested and charged with assault and battery for physically attacking a critic of Scientology in Clearwater, Florida. Oh, and you definitely can't be talking about in 2005 when Scientologist Artur Solomonyan who was brought into the United States via a Scientology religious workers visa was arrested for terrorism, smuggling weapons, and admitted to connections with Al Qaida. He was charged with terrorism and sentenced in March, 2009.

:< I mean, terrorism is just scary, guy. Not cool, not cool.

We'll miss ya around here, dude. ~<3 You're always more than welcome to join our cyber terrorizin' cake and dance parties. Love you muchly, muffinpants.
 
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dt2000

Patron with Honors
Hi Laura,

I find it a little bizarre that you have no first hand information for the past 7-8 years, haven't had a conversation with Tommy Davis on the subject of getting through steps to get in good standing, don't know what was said in the conversation he did have but automatically it is "PR bullshit." That's quite an assumption and not exactly an open minded (in the good sense) viewpoint. There's a very interesting lecture which describes what happens when someone thinks they can no longer be part of Scientology, how they consider it is a motivator of magnitude and spend the rest of their lives trying to get even. I mention this as I think you were technically trained enough to know the mechanism - whether you still "believe" in the tech or not. I hope you don't get caught in that rut. However, if everything is as bad as you say, then Scientology should be totally gone in the next couple of weeks and you will have to find something else to complain about.


Oh sorry, I didn't personally hear what it was that Tommy Davis stated. I was basing it on what YOU SAID, he said. :eyeroll: And while I haven't had the INCOMM stats system in a few years, I do have recent first hand experience.

You seem to know who I am?

Well come find my hideous crimes then, because I'm waiting and ready. :melodramatic:

I'm not even "complaining" about Scn and have no reason to "complain" about anything else. I am stating the facts so maybe I can stop someone else from being stupid enough to fall into the trap that I did. I wasted 15 years of my life and wouldn't wish what I endured on a rat.

Now, seeing as you are so informed and seem to be defending the cult. Answer this:

1) Why is it that over 15 years after LRH stated in KEEPING SCIENTOLOGY SERIES ONE said that we HAD THE CORRECT TECHNOLOGY, are revisions still being made to the tech? Did he not look at his own books????

Furthermore, why are public Scientologists being forced to pay for someone else's mistakes? Shouldn't those that already purchased the books get them for free?? I mean, if Honda fucks up on a vehicle, they don't charge the person who bought it to fix it.

2) How is it ok for Sea Org members to be coerced and forced into having abortions to keep them on post in the SO??? You can tell me it is their own determinism until you are blue in the face. I was there. I experienced it. I was personally "handled" by TWO CO CMOs to have an abortion.

I could go on and on but if you can give me a logical response to those I will waste more time typing more. But I seriously doubt it.
 

DCAnon

Silver Meritorious Patron
Dt2000, you know your crimes. You're illegally awesome. You have the right to remain sexy. :thumbsup:
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Wow I missed that defense thread and definitely have two cents of my own to offer in here.

Tommy Davis says, this is not a "deal" or "special offer". He will also tell you that there is no such thing as disconnection in Scientology :melodramatic:

Why don't you ask him about the subject of abortions in the Sea Org and see what he has to say about that.

He will probably tell you that any abortions were on the person's own determination and something they decided to do... Sure pal. Or maybe he will outright lie altogether and say that they don't happen. Who knows.

Abortion in the SO? That's a forced disconnection, isn't it.

--
Ted
 

therealme

Patron
Management SPs: These are the people who have been “declared SP” but are not permitted to leave the Int Base. People like Guillaume Lesevre, Marc Yager, Heber Jentsch and a reported 40 or 50 others. They stay in the “SP Hall” – for years. Of course, they can’t communicate to other SPs.

Is this for real??? I've never heard of this before and it's totally scary! If it's true, why can't the FBI go in there and bust 'em out! Is it like SP Jail??? WTF?
 

DCAnon

Silver Meritorious Patron
Is this for real??? I've never heard of this before and it's totally scary! If it's true, why can't the FBI go in there and bust 'em out! Is it like SP Jail??? WTF?

Either their scooted away when people come to visit or they're schooled to say they're there voluntarily I guess. :confused2: It's sick. Give them something to eat and 10 minutes alone with someone who can help and I'm sure they'd plead to get out of there.
 

nowout

Patron with Honors
Is this for real??? I've never heard of this before and it's totally scary! If it's true, why can't the FBI go in there and bust 'em out! Is it like SP Jail??? WTF?

TRM, for the origins of the hall, I suggest you read:

http://x.sea.org.googlepages.com/musicalchairs-intbasestyle

http://x.sea.org.googlepages.com/musicalchairs-intbasestyle-part2

There is an upcoming book by the author - Blown for Good:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=10381

Another friend told me that those guys at the hall (I knew most) are so beaten down, but "still in" so that if the FBI or law enforcement came in they would say they were there out of their own will, and nothing was wrong.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Let's ignore your false statements about the numbers of orgs and missions, the false statement about the lack of presence of Scientology in the various areas of the world you mentioned and the false assumptions as to facts and figures - which only prove that you have no first hand knowledge or experience, have probably never been involved to any extent in the Church - if at all. Assuming that what you say is correct, then the Church is obviously collapsing and should have been gone in a week or two, or at the most a couple of months. So how come you and your masked Anonymous friends haven't been able to destroy the tiny insignificant church like you said you would? They seem to mainly be ignoring you - except for the Anons I've seen getting arrested.

Oh - you are not a real Scientologist, just someone playing at what he or she thinks a Scientologist is like.

Ooops.

Real Scientologists are just as stupid as you apppear to be - but in a different way.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well I guess that's one way of looking at it. Another way is murder.


I'd look at it as more enforced disconnection, because I do not think aborting a fetus is murder. However, I think it's incredibly heinous to make anyone have an abortion. It's one of the worst things that the cult does.
 
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