The "CHURCHES" PR on new stuff

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yup

<snip>Especially the ones who've been in for a long time. Is it escalation of commitment? They have so much invested that they can't confront the thought that they are being lied to? Is it ego? How can these people keep following that carrot? DM really has to be laughing all the way to the bank (pun intended).

Your last paragraph sums it all up. :yes: :thumbsup:
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Maybe you could try asking if he's heard what happened to Hubbard's family?

Or Miscavige's?

I'd do it like it's a thought that just occurred to you and you think maybe he has some info you don't.

Seems like there's no real news about either in the cult these days but plenty of speculation out here in the Interwebs.

Might get him looking.

And finding questions he'd never thought of asking.

Just a suggestion - for what it's worth.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
When the basics first came out I had a dear dear old friend explain to me that this old guy was walking around in the desert and he had all the original manuscripts but wouldn't come near the church because what they were doing wasn'r what Ron wrote. Seriously, he told me this BS with a straight face.

And another friend who was in the SO for years and was nowhere on the bridge ( well unless one counts 30 thick folders of mis-mashed CSing and auditing that went nowhere) anyway he clings to there really is clear and really is OT just nobody has correctly done the levels.

I gave him I'm a big boy an xan accept I did nothing right, but 50,000 or more ( alleged ) clears and none of them did right? Not One? Not even Ron?
Same for the roughly 2,000 OT VIII's - not one did it right? Not the CS ? Not the Course sup ? Not the cramming officier or the review auditors? Nobody?

But he clings to nobody did it right or they would have the EP as written on the Grade Chart.

If that is the case then I did a whole boatload of false attests - and a whole lot of CS's agreed :)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
When the basics first came out I had a dear dear old friend explain to me that this old guy was walking around in the desert and he had all the original manuscripts but wouldn't come near the church because what they were doing wasn'r what Ron wrote. Seriously, he told me this BS with a straight face.

And another friend who was in the SO for years and was nowhere on the bridge ( well unless one counts 30 thick folders of mis-mashed CSing and auditing that went nowhere) anyway he clings to there really is clear and really is OT just nobody has correctly done the levels.

I gave him I'm a big boy an xan accept I did nothing right, but 50,000 or more ( alleged ) clears and none of them did right? Not One? Not even Ron?
Same for the roughly 2,000 OT VIII's - not one did it right? Not the CS ? Not the Course sup ? Not the cramming officier or the review auditors? Nobody?

But he clings to nobody did it right or they would have the EP as written on the Grade Chart.

If that is the case then I did a whole boatload of false attests - and a whole lot of CS's agreed :)

Nice post, Toad.:thumbsup:

CofS is like a wife beater..."Just give me one more chance, Honey...I promise you I've changed and got it right this time...I love you so much, Baby...you know I do, don't ya?"


Face:)
 

Sandie

Patron with Honors
PWC and all others who have posted suggestions

Sandie,

Keep us posted on what you said, reactions, and what you did to handle your staff friend. This could be a big boon for those who are trying to have others still in begin to see the light.

-PWC

I shall PWC. There are many good suggestion that have been given to me on this thread and I am very grateful for them and appreciate all of them.
I am going to follow my heart along with these suggestions and will let you all know how it goes...
I wish I could tell you all more of my background with this friend but if I did then OSA would figure out who this friend is...There are others in this friends family that are "way up there" and have been my friends for many many years.
Fortunately for me, I woke up! :yes:They have not YET:bigcry:
 

Mystic

Crusader
The great advantage of a cult, tell 'em anything and they'll go along with it.

"The way to control people is to lie to them." -- Tulpa Hubbard.
 

Atalantan

Patron with Honors
It did? Or perhaps it's not quite that simple.

Here's some background info that may help you to "sort things out." It will likely take months or years to sink in. (That's if you actually read it. :))

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=434595&postcount=21

People have been leaving the CofS since 1954 when Scientology was incorporated as a Church. Before that, people left Dianetics, some of the better remembered are J.A. Winter (who wrote the Introduction for 'DMSMH'), and John Campbell (who published the first article on Dianetics in his 'Astounding Science Fiction' magazine).

Then came the transition to Scientology, after Hubbard lost the rights to the name 'Dianetics', and decided to drive former business partner, supporter and benefactor, Don Purcell, bonkers by concocting - pretty much overnight - "Whole Track Maps," and then the book 'History of Man' ("This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last 60 trillion years.")

Richard DeMille, who wrote some pieces now attributed to Hubbard, left around 1953
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/demille.htm There were many others who left.

In 1959, L. Ron Hubbard Jr. left.

Lots of people left in the early 1960s with the era of 'Sec Checking', deciding that any group that insists that its members undergo metered interrogation, with such questions as "Are you a pervert" or "Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?" was not for them. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=452650&postcount=14

By 1965, Hubbard wrote 'Keeping Scientology Working', invented the SP Doctrine and SP Declares, Disconnection, the Fair Game Law, and the confidential, "deadly serious," and vital to your survival, history of the universe&your mind, and starting calling himself 'Source', and many more people left. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=381568&postcount=13 Amongst them was the first person be a awarded a 'Doctor of Scientology' certificate (the Class 12 of that day), Jack Horner. (Here's a thread you've glance at. May I suggest examining its links also. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=20373)

In 1967 came the Sea Org and Xenu, and more left. http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=77530&postcount=18
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=177122&postcount=41
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=155715&postcount=13

By the late 1960s and early 1970s, the Commodore and his ashtray-carrying 13 year old girl servants were a law unto themselves on the 'Flagship', the "safest and sanest place in the universe," and more left.

John McMaster, 'The World's First Real Clear' and the 'Pope' of Scientology, left. (See last link on Sec Check link for his comments.)

Writer William Burroughs came along, was involved briefly, did the Clearing Course then, upon completion, when asked if he wished to sign up for OT2, said, "No thanks," and left.

Many others left.

Then came the RPF and the RPF'ss RPF, and more left.

By early 1977, Hubbard had written his "LSD, Years after they had Come of off' HCOB, in which he described people who had ever taken LSD as "zombies," and soon after told them that they were required to wear rubber suits and run around for hours, and more left.

Then, in July 1977 came the FBI raids, and two years later came the court-ordered release of thousands of pages of previously secret Scientology documents, including Hubbard's paranoid ramblings, and his super-secret spying and covert attack tech, and even more left.

Then Hubbard decided that almost everyone was "Clear" and needed to exit Missions (which he was in the early stage of looting), and go "up lines" and spend their money there, and more people left.

This was followed, a few years later, by Hubbard responding to the first Mission Holders Meeting by sending his #1 henchman, David Miscavige, to "handle" the 2nd Mission Holders meeting, and more left.

Then, roughly around that time, came the partial unearthing of Hubbard's past by way of the "Shannon documents," obtained through the Freedom of Information act, and more left.

By July 1984, there was Gerry Armstrong vs. Church of Scientology, and the further unearthing of Hubbard's past, and even more left.

Then came books like 'Messiah or Madman?' http://www.amazon.com/reader/0942637577?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib_dp_pt and 'Barefaced Messiah', http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm and many more left.

Then came the Internet.

Yep, you've pretty much got the timeline sketched out there.
You neglected to mention that most of those people who left, left with tech that was working fine for them. Jack Horner, AE vanVogt, dear old Phil who was recently interviewed by Tatiana, John Galusha, Mike Goldstein, Frank Gerbode, and innumerable others, all left with tech that was working fine for them, and they kept on using it, and helped boatloads of people with tech that was working.

Most of the people I met in1971, were declared or just left by about 1982 or so. They also left with working tech under their belts, and continued to practice and use what they knew. Some went intoTIR some went other ways, but the basis was always the workable tech they had assimilated. I knew a lot of those people, the ones from southeastern Michigan, anyway.

Who really cares much how or why Hubbard screwed the pooch, if that's what he did? The point is there is working tech out in the world, and at this point it's practically open source. Anyone with access to a computer can have it if they want it. If they don't want it, they don't have to have it.

The rest is "history". As Bob Dylan said, "don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters". The age of "corporate scientology" is over.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Yep, you've pretty much got the timeline sketched out there.
You neglected to mention that most of those people who left, left with tech that was working fine for them. Jack Horner, AE vanVogt, dear old Phil who was recently interviewed by Tatiana, John Galusha, Mike Goldstein, Frank Gerbode, and innumerable others, all left with tech that was working fine for them, and they kept on using it, and helped boatloads of people with tech that was working.

Most of the people I met in1971, were declared or just left by about 1982 or so. They also left with working tech under their belts, and continued to practice and use what they knew. Some went intoTIR some went other ways, but the basis was always the workable tech they had assimilated. I knew a lot of those people, the ones from southeastern Michigan, anyway.

Who really cares much how or why Hubbard screwed the pooch, if that's what he did? The point is there is working tech out in the world, and at this point it's practically open source. Anyone with access to a computer can have it if they want it. If they don't want it, they don't have to have it.

The rest is "history". As Bob Dylan said, "don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters". The age of "corporate scientology" is over.

I don't know anything about southeastern Michigan, but I can tell you about New York and Los Angeles. And it just ain't that neat and simple.

You're welcome to read my posts and the links I've posted, if you're interested. :)
 

Atalantan

Patron with Honors
I don't know anything about southeastern Michigan, but I can tell you about New York and Los Angeles. And it just ain't that neat and simple.

You're welcome to read my posts and the links I've posted, if you're interested. :)

Thanks.

Of course you're right. Nothing in life is really all that simple. Each person is a world evolving. There are as many worlds as there are people, and they are weaved in a tapestry too complex to really delineate in a few words, or even many words. The group I described, was likely a small minority of all the outcomes that occurred back then, among people leaving the world of scientology. I guess I think of them because losing them was a major loss for scientology, but apparently inevitable, given the way things played out.

There were about as many outcomes as there were people involved, with maybe some trends, some common elements, possible to spot, and some general remarks may approximately at best, reflect the realities.

At the same time, what was lost? Those people left, as you did, with the knowledge and skills they had acquired, and so they were not lost to the world. Just as you were not lost to the world. Perhaps their, and your, creativity was suppressed somewhat. I think it was. Our positive energies were dispersed to some degree, held down. Some possibilities were closed, for the time being. But never totally eliminated. The indestructible cannot be destroyed!


Namaste! is a good word. Nice chatting with you.
 

Atalantan

Patron with Honors
Nice post, Toad.:thumbsup:

CofS is like a wife beater..."Just give me one more chance, Honey...I promise you I've changed and got it right this time...I love you so much, Baby...you know I do, don't ya?"


Face:)

The wife-beater analogy is perfect! Both the wife-beater and the Co$ need to use the formula "Find out who you really are", get out of denial and face what they are really doing and being.
 
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