Wow. We have some fundemental differences in thought here. First off, I never said the old man was a victim. I said that people were afraid to tell him things and so he made bad, uninformed decisions. This made bad situations worse. They were bad to begin with, and they got worse.
Second, Hubbard didn't have "knowingness" in the sense to which you allude. He was an average guy, in many ways. But if you didn't know him from Adam, you'd never have guessed, even if you'd shared prolonged time, that he was the pinnacle of Scn achievement.... an OT. Sure, he could get intuition, like we all could, using subtle signals like body language. But did he have "knowingness"? No way. He was human. With strengths and flaws. He couldn't perform what we would call "OT" phenomenon.
Then you make the point that you reported everything upstream. Great. What on earth makes you think that what you reported made it through censors and reached him? There was limited time for him to review such things and the censors passed materials on to other censors who condensed and highlighted materials.
It would be rare when he knew 1% of materials such as you mention.
So, he wasn't a victim. He was isolated. He did receive limited information, and delegated the vast majority of decisions. His flaws were compounded by the fear he instilled in others, leading to ever worsening decisions.
Who was going to run things..... The Broekers.
What did he think.... We had files of ideas for many future OT levels, just skeletal formations and thoughts, which could be plugged into whatever OT level you wanted to make them. OT 8 was a marketing ploy. Make the promise. People will be happy no matter what the results were, just for the thrill of doing the level. Look at clearing. Show me a clear. None exist. That had been standard for decades. Keep your eye on the goal, not the reality. Simple marketing.
Why didn't Hubbard make phone calls.... He didn't have non-Scn friends. I remember working on a letter to Bob Heinlein, which is the only non-Scn friend I recall any friendly relationship with. His life was wrapped up in Scn and those around him. Messages went via messengers.
Hubbard's number one and two priority; Can't answer that without conjecture. It depended on the day of the week and the emergency of the moment. Long term planning wasn't often a priority. Things weren't organized and prioritized like than in advance.
Priority One, on retrospect, at the time I was there: Don't get arrested.
Priority Two; Make sure to follow Priority One.
Wow. thank you.
I'm trying to think of a good story, and frankly, one not too specific. Something that represents a normal day in the life of Hubbard.
I guess there really were no normal days. Most days had unique issues that would consume all.
I can remember racing through the place, trying to find who had made a sandwich which he didn't like, that he felt might be poisoned. Trying to find the SP who must be making his food, so that they could be given the boot.
Paranoia, literally, not figuratively, was a fact of life.
Throw someone under the bus, that was the only way out. Name the person responsible for the wrong colored paint, or the poorly prepared dish, or the badly cleaned room.... put a head on the chopping block, for real or imagined offenses.
It was a world that even now is difficult to explain.
Just speaking as a kid, a kid, who wasn't as young as you, but a kid nevertheless, when I was in from 1968-1976 (aged 17-25), speaking for myself and more than one of my friends, the last place I wanted to be was anywhere near LRH. The rumors, and the facts checked out, of his vindictiveness, and two faced welcoming and declaring people (Rocky Stump for instance), made it perfectly clear that he would be dangerous to my mental health and physical well being.
Around 1970, Valerie Schomer, age about 5, was taken from Santa Clara where she was living with friends (and was happy), by her father, Homer, to Flag, where she became a Commodore's Messenger. At age 5 or 6 (I don't remember anymore), she fell asleep outside his door at 2 AM. He found her, and had her put in the chain locker for her "offense"- a six year old kid falling asleep at 2 AM! imagine that! The man was an asshole.
The above two examples I was well aware of at the times they happened. He was a loose canon. I got that message loud and clear ten thousand miles away. Why didn't everyone else?
There's not much conflicting data. Hubbard's habits changed. 'Challenge', an old timer and auditor, who at one time posted here, and knew Hubbard for years, was also asked if Hubbard used drugs and answered, "Yes."
Challenge recounted having smoked a joint with Hubbard, in Phoenix, in 1953. Hubbard didn't like the taste of marijuana and said it made his breath stink, which would make sense since he smoked filterless KOOL cigarettes. Hubbard wrote of the usefulness of Benzedrine (an amphetamine), and, there are accounts of Hubbard's use of it, and other amphetamines. On the PDC, Hubbard's "Thelemic" ("Do what thou wilt") life style (for himself) was briefly exhibited, in such statements as (paraphrase) "One should be able to drink as much liquor as he wants, use the body in any way he wants."
Then came the early 1960s. Hubbard's (nightly) daily bottle of liquor at St. Hill, which was discreetly broken and discarded the next day by one of his assistants, has been recounted by DartSmohen. Alan Walter also described Hubbard's medicated state.
However, Hubbard's habits were discreet, he could hold his liquor, and his habits changed over the years.
Somewhere around age 60, perhaps a little earlier, experiencing health problems, his habits changed. One might say he "cleaned up his act" as he approached age 60.
I would imagine that Hubbard's consumption of cigarettes would also be affected, as would be his consumption of coffee, due to health reasons.
There is simply too much information, from too many reliable sources, and, as much as I appreciate Cowboy's input, which seems genuine, I think, you, LA SCN, are a bit too inclined to "sit at the hem of the garment."
There are certain patterns that have existed since 1950, and sometimes earlier.
There are Hubbard's own words, and the layered - duplicitous - pattern of his "teachings."
There's the reality that he had priorities, and that loyalty to old friends and the well being of Scientologists, generally, were obviously not top priorities.
I suggest you take what Cowboy had written with what others who, were also there, have written, and examine the patterns going back to 1950, and also examine Hubbard's own words, and their patterns, and please stand up and stop sitting at the hem of Cowboy's robe. I really don't think he wants you there.
And please do keep posting, Cowboy.
And thanks for the responses to my questions.
Well, I've read all of the responses, and seen a couple dozen questions. I don't think I have time right now to answer each and every one of them.
Many experiences exemplify what Hubbard was. And don't forget, I've said he had good qualities, too.
There is no point of going through stories which to demonstrate examples of what you all know... the rage, etc. I'm impressed with the overall understanding of his personalities (yes, plural) and how those around him operated.
The old man believed that auditing could help, himself and others. He continued to try to elevate himself, and others, spiritually, through the auditing. But the elusive end product couldn't be achieved, not with himself or others.
I don't think many here understand how uninvolved he was in the development of tech going back for years. Most materials were other writers coming out over his name.
And the new developments were trying to get pcs the gains they'd been promised in earier levels. The only trouble is, it simply didn't work. Sure, there were gains, but not the life changing OT/clear type phenomenon which was the "bridge".
But no one would admit it. After all, if one expressed disappointment, that their own OT 3 for instance didn't achieve what they'd expected.... well that would mean you the pc were at fault. It sure wasn't the tech. Cause it worked for everyone else, right? Only it didn't. But everyone was afraid to admit it.
I have never met anyone who was an OT or exhibited any OT phenomenon. Come on, really, do you think that anyone, myself or others, who saw true OTness in the flesh would ever leave a situation which might lead to such OTness for oneself? Of course not. That would be crazy. People left for various reasons. I left because the cause I was dedicating my life to simply couldn't be achieved through Scn. It didn't produce the promised product.
Please don't read that to mean there weren't short term simple gains with Scn in many poeple. Self introspection often leads to such realizations. Some realizations could even be very significant in one's life. But did they add up to the results promised as one paid their last cent to go up the bridge? No.
Hubbard was human. WIth perhaps a keen insight to the way humans thought. And a writer's imagination. And some ingenious marketing insights. H grew old. He suffered physical infirmities. His senses faltered. His body responded as do all of ours to the process of aging. He had days of insight, and days of blindness when he couldn't figure out anything. He came within the scope of being human. Not OT. Not a god or even shadow of one. And certainly not the result of advanced processing, of what it was sup of posed to be.
But he tried. He felt his assessment of the mind would work. but it didn't. His underpinnings were flawed.
(See bolded above.)
Thank you for that description of the man.
I was an auditor. When a session went well and met expectations or beyond, it was spectacular for the auditor and the pc.
I knew I had truly helped someone and that someone knew he had been helped. I've never felt that in any other field of endeavor and I truly feel that at times Hubbard was sincere in his attempt to help others. That feeling is what gave me hope, kept me interested for so long.
But it was as you wrote above.
In the end, it was like drugs or gambling - I had to just say no or 'die in the attempt'.
My answer to your question above is unqualified YES.
The signs were there from early on, the days of Book 1 Dianetics. Hubbard wrote how he was dismayed that people were getting good results from auditing, handling what they wanted to handle and moving on with their lives, done with auditing AND done with forking their money over to him.
They weren't supermen, they weren't gods on earth, they weren't living to over 100 years old as Hubbard baited the reader in DMSMH; but they were happier!
I audited a gal once and she was rid of her fear of heights as a result of the auditing. She became again, like she had been before a silly incident, free of that fear just like a million other people that never had that fear. Just relief, that's what it was.
But Hubbard tasted of money and as cowboy said it was built into a marketing effort. Now you couldn't just take your happiness and leave - there was more! And you OWED Hubbard for his 'quarter of a century of hard work, most of it alone' (lie).
Well I was naive and bought it all.
Hubbard was master of the half truth. He told us he developed a unique vocabulary for Dn and Scn so it would not be confused with psychology and psychotherapy.
Right! He didn't want anybody knowing he took abreaction therapy from Freud and others. He didn't want anyone to find out Jung had done metered assessments at the turn of the century.
Beyond that it became garden variety dirty politics, dirty tricks and if that wasn't enough, harsh ethics codes to make sure you were always at the edge of guilt. Like the Gestapo.
And I had always associated brainwashing with harsh treatment and confinement where the captors forced a person to take on their ideas in place of their own. In Hubbardism it is much more subtle and sinister. You actually brainwash yourself by agreement.
Luckily for me, I finally saw the light.
It seems the more I say, the more questions are raised, some very valid and important. There are also questions that require my opinion, and some that want a recital of facts. I prefer to stick with what I saw personally, what I experienced, though those experiences did lead to my making conclusions.
People, to use Christian nomenclature, have a God sized hole. Everyone ponders the unanswerable questions of theology. And they try to find a vehicle that can lead them to the answers, and perhaps spiritual growth they crave.
Scn presented a more modern approach to dealing with age old questions of theology. And it did present some good tools, such as study tech and communication skills, which led to hope that the lofty levels would achieve the miraculous results that were touted. Scn also played upon the natural instinct of most good people to want to do good for others. Read "Boots in the Sky", an eloquent missive by Hubbard soliciting people to take responsibility.
The desire to do good, to fill the "God sized hole", blinded people to a truly unbiased assessment of actual results. It happens in most religions. Hope hid reality. Why else could anyone believe the hyperbole of OT3? It is easy to detect radioactive half lifes to determine whether nuclear explosions occured in the distant past. It is now technologically possible to date the advent of this universe. Yet despite demonstrable evidence that the story of OT 3 simply wasn't true, people to this day choose to believe the science fiction story. Of course when the details of OT 3 were first penned the technology to refudiate the OT 3 claims wasn't available. But it is now. For anyone chosing to investigate. Yet people continue to find OT 3 stories credible.
But a question that no one has touched upon here is this; Does the end justify the means?
Once one has drank the Kool-aid, and believes the salvation of planet earth and all beings on it rested squarely on the shoulders of the chosen few of Scn and the prophet Hubbard, is there anything a good person wouldn't do to protect that salvation? Steal? Assault? Worse?
You can see so many examples in the modern world of people deciding the ends do justify the means. Muslim extremists kill themselves and others. Fanatical Christians disallow medical care that could save their ill children. Crusaders murdered innocent children and women. Nazis clean the human race by murdering Jews.
Is it any surprise that the same human nature that leads to such absurdities as these also ran, and continues to run rampant in Scn? How many, if they felt the fate of all humanity hung in the balance, wouldn't do whatever it took to preserve such salvation? It is easy to sell the bill of goods, as it has for a millenia.
But I wax philosophic.... So let me tell a story.
When the separation of GO and MSH from Hubbard/mainstream Scn was taking place, one of the secret locations was no longer hidden and safe enough. And the worry was the FBI was going to attack. All staff was gathered and every document, every pc folder etc was gone through. We didn't sleep for days, vetting anything (not crossing out, but usually cutting out dangerous passages) so that if and when the FBI raided the site, they would find nothing. I spent three days up, as did most of the staff, numb with tiredness, trying to protect the sanctity of Scn by deleting any passage that could be damming.
We began to shift to the next secret base, shaking in our shoes that the FBI would raid the place at any moment.
In this same time the Jonestown massacre had recently occured, and many analogies (perhaps deservedly) were being made between the Jonestown victims and Scientologists. The thought was the FBI was moving full steam ahead, to perhaps protect us from our selves.
As we abandoned the base, someone had a sense of humor. Packages of Kool-aid were taped to the wall, with a sign under each stating; "Drink in case of FBI raid."
Another day in the life...
Yes, the fears of FBI involvement were real. A history had been established. No doubt. What was cut out? Whatever the vetter thought could be twisted to make Hubbard or Scn look bad. Don't forget, the FBI had carried out some raids on Scn in 1977.
Magoo, I'll always try to answer your questions...
My thoughts on spirit and immorality? I am open to every thought, philosophy, religion on the subject. But I require evidence, not faith, and in that, every spiritual journey falls short. I'm not hear to be a guru, and I believe every person must follow the walk truth for them, based upon their experiences. But be truthful. Face the hard facts. And don't accept what anyone else says based up their real or imagined credibility.
It is interesting that some found comfort leaving their faith of Scn behind, but entering alternative belief systems that likewise required blind belief without evidene.
We all crave to find the meaning in life. I live not my finding the meaning in my life, but making the meaning in my life.
Hmmm. not sure what you mean by "soft". I guess I'm still proving myself, huh?
Let's see. In Rifle, as La Quinta was called, we had, across the alfala field, a Spanish style hacienda courtyard home where the old man resided. Outside the semi-circular driveway was a row of former stables that we put concrete in, sealed up and made into admin holding areas. Along both sides of the drive were huge tamarisk trees, where the staff guards would hide, ready to advise any and all of any raid.
Around the main house was an adobe wall, encircling the courtyard style home which had a courtyard within the center. Three legs of the home. The first, on the left, entering the courtyard, was the center, with the old man's office there, outside of which were two smaller offices where the messengers worked. In his office was an easy chair, table, smokes. At the other end of the office was AV equipment so that when tapes were brought in he could listen to them.
The "bridge" part of the two legs was the living room and dinning room, with a long table, at which he would eat, usually alone, unless Archie was called up to have dinner with him. And sometimes MSH while she was there. Messengers, who were always with him, would sit on the floor. In the other leg joined by the bridge, was the kitchen, enterable from the dining room and the courtyard. Then came a storage type office. The court yard was entered by wooden gates from the outside.
Outside the main house, but still enclosed by the surrounding walls, was a salitillo tile expanse (don't ask how many times the saltillo tiles had to be sealed due to all manner of noxious odors, filth, chemical odors, etc). In the back left courtyard, again, still within the walls of the complex was a two bedroom guest house, with the two bedrooms (no kitchen here, by the way) joined by a short entrance hall. On the left was MSH's bedroom (up until the point she and the old man parted ways for the sake of the greater good). On the right was the old man's bedroom, which had been retiled in ceramic floor to decrease the odors etc. His bathroom was to the left of the door in the corner of his bedroom, and his bed faced what would be the right wall as one entered the bedroom. Actually, he did change his position of his bed once or twice. This is the room, by the way, in which he would get audited.
The rest of the La Quinta property was in ajoining properties, with a bit of a walk. The messengers were issued red bikes which they used to go to other parts of the ranch. First we would come to an abandoned warehouse, which was sealed, painted etc and used as the stage for making Cine films. Ajoining it was the AV room where tapes were being worked on, as well as the audio section of films. Within that area was the mic room, where a dozen or so mics were placed in exact positions so that Hubbard could make recordings, or others, with the attendant equalizers and audio equipment out there. In the space between the "set" and "audio" part of the building, the mass production of cassettes was done, under the supervision of the oft berated but good intentioned David Wilson. Can't tell you how many times Hubbard would blow up stating one of the mics had been moved... and heads would roll. Usually that of David Wilson.
Outside the set area was a series of metal storage cabinets that housed props, garments for films, and various administrative things associated with the production of films.
Continuing on in this tour of La Quinta (to the left was the dirt road, open pasture for the neighbor's horses, and looming mountains). ... but, continuing on was a vast expanse in front of another series of stables. This vast expanse had been concreted to keep dust down. The stables had likewise been concreted. The stables held materials used for construction of sets and tools for the upkeep of the ranch. Outside this row of stables was the area used for the outdoor sets. Beyond the stable was, to the left, a partitioned bunkhouse, each side of which held about eight staff. This was built from a garage that existed there when the property was purchashed.
To the right of the bunkhouse was a ranchhouse. Leo Johnson slept there, and Sarge, and Muffy, and other well known figures. Bill Fozdick (Foz) and his new wife Michelle lived in one room.
Anyway, through the date field, past a couple out buildings (one where Archie lived), and you reached the building which the old man called the white elephant, because it was long and thin and dysfunctional. One end was a berthing area, a dozen guys or so sleeping there. Mid section of the building was used for editing. Far end was the CMO admin area.
Outside and across the lawn was the firepit used to burn shredded confidential material.
On the other side was a separate buidling, the library, where male messengers lived, including well known currrent male messengers, with a lofty series of library shelves. To the left of the library, past a bathroom on the right, (in the same building) was a living room and kitchen, only the living room was the bedroom for the Rousseaus (Claire and her husband). The kitchen was for admin sometimes, with much of the transcription of Revolt in the Stars done there.
Anyway, passing this group of buildings, and the two messenger vehicles, named Beauty and Beast, one passed a gate, to another yard. Pool on the left (which once led to severe discipline, when a VIP was brought there blindfolded from LA, and wasn't supposed to know where he was, but a metal cap to the filter of the pool was marked Palm Desert so he found out where he was and heads rolled).
Anyway, nice expanse of grass, where occassionally a game of tag football was played at lunch, and then the ranch house. THis is where most staff would eat. Entryway, kitchen on left, living room on right, with chairs for eating. Down in the basement was the course area, MO office, non-cmo staff area. Many is the day when David Wilson would come and records the murmur of "Peas and Carrots" recited by staff for background noise on tapes. This is where Dan Koon practiced TRs that would leap him to fame in the movies. Upstairs again, past the main floor, were a few bedrooms, personal use and auditing in the day time. One of these was where we had the death of Phil Valinsky (sp?) who died while being audited.
Let's see, now, outside the ranch house was a guest house (to the right) in which Doreen and Peter Gilham lived.
I guess I'm boring. Should I do this whole thing with GHS and the other secret headquarters?
Screw it. If you don't believe I know what I'm talking to you, there's nothing I could say to change your mind, or at least nothing I would care to say at this moment.
Of course, whatever I've recounted above, which might not be on the internet, you could simply say that you have no corrobarating truth of it being so and so still disbelieve me.
Great post. Does it really matter who believes you. you know what you have experienced. Tell that. That is what will bring relief or at least partial realese IMHO.
I was a messenger and had a very different path then you. might be because of the times that we started. What you say here speaks to what I went through and I'm very interested in what you say.
I have quite a few mixed emotions about the sea org and being a messenger. I enjoyed much of my time in the Sea Org and believe it helped (good and bad) to shape me into the person (father) that I am today. Truth be told I'm very far away from being fully healed. I know this because ther is a part of me that would return to the time that I knew while I was in the Sea ORg.
Please continue Cowboy and know that there are people that share in what you went through.
Do you realize that the vast majority of people who have cancer have eaten a carrot in the year prior?However, that doesn't establish a causal relationship. Do you know that the vast majority of people who have cancer and it goes into remission have imbibed in water in the previous months? But that doesn't establish a causal relationship.
If someone received counseling and something good happened, that doesn't always establish a reproducable causal relationship. Remember the old psych experiment of giving a mouse a reward every time he flips a switch, then make that reward less and less and less often, yet the mouse keeps going back and flipping the switch though for hundreds of times he hasn't received the reward? People act in many ways the same.
I've never said that counseling couldn't sometimes help. But I've talked to others who've received tremendous help from "counseling" of their ministers in the LDS, JWs, Muslims, and various other religions. I have said that Scn doesn't deliver what it promises. And if anyone here can tell me one verified OT experienc then I and the amazing Randi would both like to hear about it.
If you sat down and thought, sincerely, would have you done wrong in your life and what should you do to take responsibility for it and what could you do better in your life, and acted on those responses, good might happen.
MSH should be a hero to the members of the church, rather than the villification which received during and after her life. SHe took the wrap for faults which were not hers, took herself from her familiar surroundings, sacrificed everything... her freedom before and after jail, to protect her husband and the church. If I was a church member I would worship the ground she once walked on.
Wow, funny vitriolic post. Is it in jest? You might read my recent post of who lived where and did what at one of the bases. But, if you choose not to believe me, that's totally okay.
I believe that if more of us had used our BS sniffers when we were in Scn, we would have parted ways far sooner. So, if your BS sniffer says I'm full of it, I encourage you to not be swayed from what you feel is the truth. Don't believe me. To believe me what be to negate your knowingness. We should all live our lives on our own realities, not those of others.
Thank you for communicating your skepticism. Maybe if I post more your feelings will change, but if they don't, that's certainly okay with me.