The Current State of Co$ finances

David Mayo is not a Scientologist.

David Mayo was never in the Freezone.
...

Although, your statements are true they are also misleading as written.

David is no longer a scientologist, having specifically recanted membership in that group or advocacy of its specific form of mental/spiritual technology. However, David was at one time the de facto leader of independent scientology, a movement which has continued to survive for many years under the generic name of 'freezone'.

During David's brief involvement with independent scientology the 'freezone' term was restricted to CBR's people. After David left the term developed a more catholic usage and was extended to refer to all who practice some aspects of scientology independently of the church.

David left scientology and ended all association with independent scientology many years ago. He has publicly disavowed further interest in the entire body of work labeled under the heading of 'scientology'. Nonetheless, David's interests continue to include many of the issues which were sought to be addressed by the subject of scientology.

No doubt this knowledge acquired in the past coupled with the academic work he pursued after leaving the church continues to influence his present interests.

You are correct that David does not publicly endorse participation with any form of independent scientology. However you have neglected to point out that he is also precluded by his settlement with the church from making any statement which might be interpreted as such.

Personally, I doubt very much that David would be interested in making such an endorsement if he could, but as things stand he is unable to do so without incurring severe legal repercussions.


There's no reason to believe that such a temporary upstat exists.

Actually there is every reason to believe it. New people continue to become involved in freezone & independent scientology. You can relax however as the numbers involved remain very modest. There is no evidence of thousands flooding into the freezone. Still, an uptick is an uptick. :)



It's funny that the 'Freezone' is lately making strenuous efforts to co-opt, or associate itself with David Mayo - a person with whom they have no connection whatsoever. ...

First, you are extreme in your view of the presence of strenuous efforts. Terril's posts hardly constitute strenuous efforts on the part of the freezone. :)

Second, you are quite wrong concerning the 'no connection whatsoever'. Apart from David's own prior involvement, several leading members of the freezone are former close associates & friends of David. A few were also closely involved in working with David during the days in which he was, as head of the AACs, the de facto leader of independent scientology. Some of these individuals I know to be in continued communication with David.

Now, I doubt very much that David has any interest whatsoever in discussing 'tech issues' with his old friends, but they do share relationships & interests and in some cases have maintained their relationships over a period of several decades. None of that can legitimately characterized as 'no connection whatsoever'.

In your passionate assertions of your beliefs & hopes, you have over-stated your facts and made misleading statements concerning others.

It is very fair to say that David has no interest in promoting independent scientology in any of its guises and were he completely free to speak would so say. As it is, he has in the past disavowed further interest in scientology and has asserted that he is not a scientologist. That is more than sufficient to distance himself from any consideration as an active promoter of the freezone or independent scientology.


With that regard, Terril reasonably should point out that those comments he routinely cites by David in promotion of the freezone generally represent earlier statements by David. And that whereas those views are often shared by many freezoners, that does not mean that David endorses independent scientology. In not making that clear in his posts, Terril is being somewhat disingenuous.

Although, from what I know of Terril I consider that reflects a failure to perceive on his part rather than an intention to mislead.

[Nonetheless, I'd be willing to bet that David would still consider as preferable involvement with the freezone & independent scientology (and no, not Independent Scientology, aka MR's 'church') to that of the lrh established official church. Fortunately, he has no need to choose. :coolwink:]


Mark A. Baker
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Actually there is every reason to believe it. New people continue to become involved in freezone & independent scientology. You can relax however as the numbers involved remain very modest. There is no evidence of thousands flooding into the freezone. Still, an uptick is an uptick. :)

If 2 new ones a month come in, and 3 old ones a month leave, that is not really an "uptick." 12 new ones in the past 6 months versus 10 new ones in the 6 months prior could be considered an uptick.

Now, those numbers are just given for the sake of argument. But where do your numbers come from, Mark? What are you quantifying as an increase? Terril's memory of new members to his Yahoo group? IFAP's list of paid members?

Paul
 
If 2 new ones a month come in, and 3 old ones a month leave, that is not really an "uptick." 12 new ones in the past 6 months versus 10 new ones in the 6 months prior could be considered an uptick.

Now, those numbers are just given for the sake of argument. But where do your numbers come from, Mark? What are you quantifying as an increase? Terril's memory of new members to his Yahoo group? IFAP's list of paid members?

Paul

Actually, my personal stat is: people I meet at private soires.

Note: that's not parties. Parties are generally wide open and people there may or may not be freezoners. At a private get together it's easier to tell who is interested in the freezone & who isn't. Those newly interested stand out.

And no, I don't claim it's an infallible measure. As a mathematician I recognize that all measures are fallible. As a logician I'm not persuaded by large numbers.

Moreover, with something like the freezone, it doesn't imply active involvement. It's not like the church where individuals are constantly regged for their 'next action', as you well know. It's not a 'movement' in the sense that the church tries to be with a stated goal of 'clearing the planet'. People may choose not to do anything for years and then decide to do a course, or some auditing, or other activity. Or not.

You needn't worry. I won't be publishing any stats. Since, I'm not persuaded by them, I don't expect others to be either. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU


Mark A. Baker
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Although, your statements are true they are also misleading as written.

David is no longer a scientologist, having specifically recanted membership in that group or advocacy of its specific form of mental/spiritual technology. However, David was at one time the de facto leader of independent scientology, a movement which has continued to survive for many years under the generic name of 'freezone'.

During David's brief involvement with independent scientology the 'freezone' term was restricted to CBR's people. After David left the term developed a more catholic usage and was extended to refer to all who practice some aspects of scientology independently of the church.

David left scientology and ended all association with independent scientology many years ago. He has publicly disavowed further interest in the entire body of work labeled under the heading of 'scientology'. Nonetheless, David's interests continue to include many of the issues which were sought to be addressed by the subject of scientology.

No doubt this knowledge acquired in the past coupled with the academic work he pursued after leaving the church continues to influence his present interests.

You are correct that David does not publicly endorse participation with any form of independent scientology. However you have neglected to point out that he is also precluded by his settlement with the church from making any statement which might be interpreted as such.

Personally, I doubt very much that David would be interested in making such an endorsement if he could, but as things stand he is unable to do so without incurring severe legal repercussions.




Actually there is every reason to believe it. New people continue to become involved in freezone & independent scientology. You can relax however as the numbers involved remain very modest. There is no evidence of thousands flooding into the freezone. Still, an uptick is an uptick. :)





First, you are extreme in your view of the presence of strenuous efforts. Terril's posts hardly constitute strenuous efforts on the part of the freezone. :)

Second, you are quite wrong concerning the 'no connection whatsoever'. Apart from David's own prior involvement, several leading members of the freezone are former close associates & friends of David. A few were also closely involved in working with David during the days in which he was, as head of the AACs, the de facto leader of independent scientology. Some of these individuals I know to be in continued communication with David.

Now, I doubt very much that David has any interest whatsoever in discussing 'tech issues' with his old friends, but they do share relationships & interests and in some cases have maintained their relationships over a period of several decades. None of that can legitimately characterized as 'no connection whatsoever'.

In your passionate assertions of your beliefs & hopes, you have over-stated your facts and made misleading statements concerning others.

It is very fair to say that David has no interest in promoting independent scientology in any of its guises and were he completely free to speak would so say. As it is, he has in the past disavowed further interest in scientology and has asserted that he is not a scientologist. That is more than sufficient to distance himself from any consideration as an active promoter of the freezone or independent scientology.


With that regard, Terril reasonably should point out that those comments he routinely cites by David in promotion of the freezone generally represent earlier statements by David. And that whereas those views are often shared by many freezoners, that does not mean that David endorses independent scientology. In not making that clear in his posts, Terril is being somewhat disingenuous.

Although, from what I know of Terril I consider that reflects a failure to perceive on his part rather than an intention to mislead.

[Nonetheless, I'd be willing to bet that David would still consider as preferable involvement with the freezone & independent scientology (and no, not Independent Scientology, aka MR's 'church') to that of the lrh established official church. Fortunately, he has no need to choose. :coolwink:]


Mark A. Baker

Thanks for confirming that everything I said is true.

Just bear in mind that if you split hairs like that too often, you'll need to use a lot more conditioner to prevent an Afro.


 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
In his day Mayo was real threat due to being a well-liked and respected person appointed to a high position by [STRIKE]Col Sanders[/STRIKE] [STRIKE]Ronald McDonald[/STRIKE] LRH, whereas Marty is such an idiot that he's no threat to the Cof$ at all. His only danger is to people outside the Cof$, who might swallow his rose-tinted portrayal of Hubbard.

That was the early 80s, pre-internet, where COS still had somewhat of a claim that Mayo was using "copyrighted materials". Don't think that sticks any more.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Actually, my personal stat is: people I meet at private soires.

Note: that's not parties. Parties are generally wide open and people there may or may not be freezoners. At a private get together it's easier to

explain that I belong to a group that couldn't think of a name for itself, so identifies itself with the name originated by someone called Astar Paramejgian, who's the deputy commander for sector nine of the milky way galaxy, under commander Elron Elray who currently resides in a doll body on the mother-ship.

Light gray wording added :biggrin:

Current Leader of the "Loyal Officers" and chief bridge seller:

2008_1101oct09burner0302.jpg
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
That was the early 80s, pre-internet, where COS still had somewhat of a claim that Mayo was using "copyrighted materials". Don't think that sticks any more.

Why not? I ask because Dan Koon has published a bunch of Levels checksheets under his own name, that look remarkably similar to the Levels checksheets published under Hubbard's name, and they are full of regular HCOBs. It is just about impossible to make up legal packs for them in any kind of quantity, unless you buy sets of the red vols that contain the issues and rip them out. Which I can't believe anyone does.

I can't believe anyone uses the red vols with a whole bunch of bookmarks, either, as it's a pain in the butt to study a course like that. I imagine people either use xeroxed copies, or soft copies, both forms of which are easy to make packs from, but alas, illegal. Are there any FZers who promote that they use illegal copies like this?

This is one reason I used to be in favour of using Clearbird materials for Levels checksheets: you could get legal packs. (The "used to be" is because I don't recommend anyone learn to be a Scn auditor these days.)

Paul
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Snip.

Moreover, with something like the freezone, it doesn't imply active involvement. It's not like the church where individuals are constantly regged for their 'next action', as you well know. It's not a 'movement' in the sense that the church tries to be with a stated goal of 'clearing the planet'. People may choose not to do anything for years and then decide to do a course, or some auditing, or other activity. Or not.


Mark A. Baker

This follows Dr Park's brilliant proclamation of the other day, in which he stated that "Anything can be an OT level."

So people who have no active involvement with the Freezone can be counted as members of it along with people who have chosen not to do anything for years, because they may choose to do something or not.

If you combine that with Dr Park's cognition that anything can be an OT level, it has astonishing implications.

The Freezone has become an unstoppable force.
 
Thanks for confirming that everything I said is true.

With the elimination of the excessive overstatement and addition of appropriate context; yes. :yes:


Just bear in mind that if you split hairs like that too often, you'll need to use a lot more conditioner to prevent an Afro.



Not too worried about it. I have relied upon logical rigor all my life. I find it naturally conducive to increased understanding and harmonious living. The only thing it has prevented is excessive involvement with chaotic & irrational individuals. No great loss.

Nonetheless, I still have a full head of mostly straight and naturally dark hair, slightly wavy when styled longer but not especially curly. At least at the moment. Nor have I plans to endure chemotherapy.


Mark A. Baker :)
 

smartone

My Own Boss
I'm sure you're right. Numbers are dropping, and most of the people who are leaving the Cof$ will be doing what most of the people here have done - just quietly walking away, and getting on with life in the real world. Contrary to Dr Terril Park's PR statements, there's no reason to believe that "Marty is getting people out of the Church" or that Marty is even any kind of significant rallying point. Most of the people who end up at Marty's Ra Ra Ron page will be people who typed the word 'Scientology' into google. After that will come people who've been out for quite a while, who are curious about what's going on in the Scino world. After them come Marty's addled old codgers who want to pray to Ron in a public place and mouth off about Miscavige. After them come the people who are actively taking services, and I doubt that they are more than about 20 people. So Independent Scientology doesn't add up to being a 'movement', or even a group in any real sense.

And then there is the ludicrous Freezone... I won't even comment.

I expect to see more and more Orgs closing their doors from lack of staff, and then it's game over really.



Yes Smilla. I couldn't have said it any better. :thumbsup:
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
To answer a whole bunch at once.....

The problem with these demise predictions is that no one preserves them. The confident predictions of Scientology's demise from the 1980s are lost, as are the equally confident predictions of its demise from the 1990s.

I will note two differences between the past predictions and this thread. First, LRH was a genius who had an uncanny ability to re-brand and re-emerge. LRH also put extremely able people into various posts and allowed them to basically flourish. I never knew LRH, but when I read Jeff Hawkins' story of how he did the Dianetics marketing campaign, I saw a side of LRH that was neither saint or madman - in some ways he was like Regan - put people in charge according to their strengths and let things run themselves. I subsequently talked to some people who knew LRH about that story, and ultimately came to understand how LRH emerged as this force that kept growing, evolving, and surviving.

Granted, LRH was no longer around in the 90's, but a lot of people that he installed in various positions still were. DM's paranoia wasn't quite as far gone either. The "Old Guard" is largely gone now, and the Co$ is being run by a bunch of semi-literate children that were recruited into the SO at age 10. They aren't capable of thinking for themselves, and they certainly wouldn't risk it to re-brand the Co$. And in Reitmann's book, you have examples of how people come up with marketing campaigns and pour money into them, only to have the Dwarfenfurher pull the plug at the last minute (typical SP behavior to not complete a cycle of action).

Finally, there is this little thing called teh interwebz. I don't think that requires any explanation.

As for how much loot the secretive criminal operation of Scientolgy has, that's speculation.

True dat. BUT, I think that Mat Pesch has pulled back the curtain more than our speculation ever could. That provided far worse data than I would have predicted. Putting aside the RTC balance (which we obviously don't know), the SO depleted nearly 90% of their reserves between 1995 and 2002. Flag dropped 96% from its high water mark of $25 mill.

The answer to this problem was not a re-brand - it was a re-issue of the Basics and forcing the current Scientologists to redo their lower Bridge. At best, that was a temporary solution to a long-term problem. At worst, it hastened the inevitable by sending old timers packing more quickly than would have happened otherwise.

It pretty much guaranteed its continuation when it obtained IRS tax exemption and subsequent religious-cloaking.

Which brings me full circle to my original question of WHY Davey would be stupid enough to risk it by denying refunds.

Any moderately slick operator could maintain the cult indefinitely.

Since there is no moderately slick operator to be found, how long could an asthmatic dwarf keep it going?

Moving along to LuluBelle's questions.

What is it that they could sue Marty for?

I don't think it is possible any longer to sue someone for using Scientology material outside the church. Honesty, I don't really know this. But with all of the material having been out there for all those years, and all those groups having been out there all those years, and all the stuff having been available on line for a while now...think that ship has sailed.

So, what else? Libel? Good luck proving that in the US. First of all, you have to prove that what is being asserted about the libelee is untrue. With all the exes out there, I don't think anyone in COS Legal wants to go down that road in a courtroom.

I'm not writing this as a challenge. I'm asking the question. What is it that Marty could be sued for? Any ideas?

You're thinking like an intelligent person. Stop!

LRH said, "The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." (see http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/Declaration/exhibg.html)

That said, anyone can be sued for anything. Winning the lawsuit is another matter entirely. The old-time red volumes say nothing about winning lawsuits. Since Marty gave interviews to the SP Times about Davey beating people up, that's something that Davey could sue him for. The result of that lawsuit would be a lot of people spending a lot of money, but that was sort of the point of LRH's original statement. LRH had money to spend. DM apparently doesn't if he's not willing to take on the M&M Show, Toobin and Childs, and Tony Ortega.

Finally, Pete

I will definitely comandeer that expression ... der Dwarfenfuhrer! And I see you used one of mine, or came up with it independently ... "the Bulgravian Boogie."

I've seen "Bulgravian Boogie" on a lot of anti-Co$ sites. Bunker Hunker comes in a close second. I'm not sure where I saw Dwarfenfuhrer, but I didn't come up with that one either.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Mutual blackmail may be occurring between Rathbun&Rinder and Miscavige, with each knowing where not to tread - thus their war remains essentially a PR war.

As Jesse Prince noted, it's more like a lover's spat.

This was discussed at length months ago.

As for the FZ, at this stage, it's advertising for Scientology as much as it's competition.

There are people who saw "Success Stories" for things such as "OT 3" who - then - stayed IN Scientology Inc. as a result.

DM versus the M&M show was just an example, btw. Realistically, I think any lawsuit there would be mutually assured destruction. And Freezone - good luck finding a "leader" of that thing to even sue.

The closest we've seen to some serious litigation action was Debbie, and that blew up in the cult's face.

Meanwhile, do you see any reporters getting fair gamed like they used to? If this were the 70's, Janet Reitmann would be under federal indictment for a bomb threat, Toobin and Childs would be widely reported to be gay lovers, and Tony Ortega would be racially profiled and deported to Cuba.
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
The 'Indies' aren't all that independent, are they? They only recruit by 'ambulance chasing' among the people who leave Cof$, not in the real world. They never built an eMeter of their own. They don't have a publishing house, nor very much to publish (unless for some reason you value the ramblings of Captain Bill Robertson).
Most of the FZ people where I've been involved lately have "never been in the church". (I wish I could say the same about myself!)

Most FZ tech is available for free download on the internet. Very little is available in hard copy form unless you include people printing out what they've downloaded themselves.

And there is a lot of it. I myself have developed three processes which have been essential in handling specific portions of my case (example: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...The-Fulfillment-Of-Desire&p=695321#post695321 ). But, with the exception of Cap'n Bill and a few others, very little has been gathered up into central repositories.


We still can get hit for trademark or copyright violations, and thus its almost impossible for the FZ to be high ranking on a google of "Scientology". Despite that the FZ has been continuosly growing and expanding and is now bigger than ever and would grow even faster if CO$ were not there.
A question I've been struggling with is -- what would happen to the FZ if the COS were to close its doors tomorrow? It would be great if the church were out of the way so the FZ could get on with it. But might those powerful groups that oppose the church (guvment, Marcabians, Smersh, take your pick) then turn their attention on the FZ? A RONS Org in Rostok, Russia was raided by the authorities. This could put the freezone in the odd position of wanting to preserve the church, to draw suppressive intention away from the FZ.

As a side observation, small groups tend not to be attacked. This is partly why, for the forseeable future, no FZ group will be very large. Only a large group is worth suing (if your purpose is to get money), and if you manage to take over a small group (such as CADA a few years ago), you've only taken over a small piece of the FZ, far from all of it.

Each RONS Org is formally independent of the others -- although there is a committee to coordinate their efforts, the committee has no official legal dominion over the congregations.


I would define demise as the soonest of Bulgravian Boogie (hidey hole), conviction (or guilty plea - same diff as far as effect) or closing of Flag's doors.
I love it!

Helena
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
I don't see the FZ being targetted for destruction like the Co$ unless the FZ adopts some of the more abusive aspects of the tech. Fair Game, Disconnection, RPF, abusive regging, etc. Are not DM originals - he just took it to a new extreme. Size of the FZ orgs don't matter to me. I doubt they matter to anyone outside of corporate Scientology.

I respect your right to believe that your problems are caused byengrams and space cooties if you respect my right to believe that my problems were caused by a talking snake with a magic apple. It's that simple.

I actually think that another distinguishing factor between the 80's and 90's is that the critic community stopped giving a shit about Xenu and the BT's. At the end of the day, bad science fiction is no more objectively implausible than most of Christianity. The real problem is the abuse perpetrated in the name of the Co$ if the Freezone doesn't get into the same abusive behavior, I think most critics would be willing to live and let live.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
This follows Dr Park's brilliant proclamation of the other day, in which he stated that "Anything can be an OT level."

So people who have no active involvement with the Freezone can be counted as members of it along with people who have chosen not to do anything for years, because they may choose to do something or not.

If you combine that with Dr Park's cognition that anything can be an OT level, it has astonishing implications.

The Freezone has become an unstoppable force.

Smilla, Smilla, Smilla, my dear you need to understand the real stats.

Now you know that the Co$ has claimed 8-12 million members and we all know very well that this is utterly false. Now here is what you have failed to understand. Those millions had no desire to be a part of the Co$. Thus, and really you need to follow closely on this, these, let's call it 8 million, OK? These 8 million are actually freezoners. So the freezone darling is massive. Terrill is just being entirely too too modest.

Now as to the imminent demise of lil' Davey Dwarfenstein's organization, I don't think they'll be going away any time soon. They've managed to limp along for many many years. Their 'furvent' members stubbornly refuse to expose themselves to the "entheta" therefore they will continue to support the cause for as long as Davey can keep feeding them the pretty PR events.

I think certain zones within the gov't have an interest in keeping them alive and as a result law enforcement is held at bay.

My guess is they'll still be limping along in 20 years.
 
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