THE DEFINING MOMENT IN SCIENTOLOGY

[Veda]

Without the "Xenu story," there is no "OT 3."

The "Xenu story" is PR problem for Scientology, and Scientology searches for a PR line that the Wogs and/or SPs will swallow.

What's remarkable is that such attempts at manipulation are made on an Ex-Scientologist message board.

It's potentially very confusing to someone just leaving - or considering leaving - Scientology.

Some more info - mainly for lurkers.

OT levels (takes a while to appear on the screen):

http://www.acdev.org/secretdox/The OTs LEVELS.pdf

Class 8 course excerpts, with commentary from two who were on the original Class 8 course (addresses Hubbard's drug use while "researching" OT 3):

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=177122&postcount=41

'Public Service Announcement' with many links (includes more info [top link] on Hubbard's use of mind-altering drugs):

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=77478&postcount=14

-snip-

But please forgo the asshole nonsense loopiness that I give a damn.

I respond to Scientology Freezone PR man, Mark A. Baker, and you respond.

I respond to "Church" of Scientology ("acceptable truth") PR man Alex (or one or more of his helpers), and you respond.

Relax.

Look closely, most of my responses are not to you.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Ideally your set up would be based purely on your own reality rather than social pressures to accept eagerly the next nugget of truth on a golden platter. I think that in retrospect the whole xenu story could be skipped, and it would have been fine. It is obvious that Hubbards experience of the incident is a heavy factor in how it is told and run.

Most people would probably have not even connected the galactic emperor to the event from their own experience of it.

My feeling is that your set up was part reality and part acceptance, from what you have said. The "social" pressures in scientology, both church and otherwise are not a positive thing at all. One should never accept what others assert solely on the basis of their assertion.

The background story of the political motives and space opera scenarios are just window dressing for a audience that would appreciate them, not essential elements of a phenomenon and it resolution.

Thanks for responding to my question. What I was mainly querying was your statement that, "A person not set up for or ready for the material will not find it to be real. Yet people who are, do."

I don't think that is true. I will agree that Scios who have had sufficient case gain that their attention has been freed up from mundane matters that they can perceive with sufficient sensitivity — at least for the time being — and who have been trained sufficiently well that they can follow the procedure to some acceptable extent and aren't all fingers and thumbs with the meter etc. do tend to get some benefit from auditing the level. And conversely, that people who have their case kicking them in the teeth and/or are not confident and competent at solo auditing generally and solo auditing OT3 specifically tend to find little to audit on the level. But that is not the same as what you said.

By that I mean that I, for example, am in better case shape and could solo audit it far better now than 30 years ago when I actually did OT3, but I don't find it in the least real. It is real to me that there are the little bits of life-force that can be usefully addressed, but not at all real that there was some catastrophic historical event or that they are entire spiritual beings. It was not real to me in terms of personal perception that there was such an event when I first did the level, only real that Hubbard had said that there was.

Paul

 

[alex]

Thanks for responding to my question. What I was mainly querying was your statement that, "A person not set up for or ready for the material will not find it to be real. Yet people who are, do."

I don't think that is true. I will agree that Scios who have had sufficient case gain that their attention has been freed up from mundane matters that they can perceive with sufficient sensitivity — at least for the time being — and who have been trained sufficiently well that they can follow the procedure to some acceptable extent and aren't all fingers and thumbs with the meter etc. do tend to get some benefit from auditing the level. And conversely, that people who have their case kicking them in the teeth and/or are not confident and competent at solo auditing generally and solo auditing OT3 specifically tend to find little to audit on the level. But that is not the same as what you said.

By that I mean that I, for example, am in better case shape and could solo audit it far better now than 30 years ago when I actually did OT3, but I don't find it in the least real. It is real to me that there are the little bits of life-force that can be usefully addressed, but not at all real that there was some catastrophic historical event or that they are entire spiritual beings. It was not real to me in terms of personal perception that there was such an event when I first did the level, only real that Hubbard had said that there was.

Paul

I get your points.

I think that much of life, much of what we perceive is the mental construct of it, the perception filtered though our preexisting notions, and rendered as real, but actually a representation of the truth of it.

Paradigms, models, mental constructs, are all aids in understanding some more basic truth. Or crutches.

I understand what you are saying. Basically real is not real! It just seemed so at the time.

I say that it can serve. Can also be transcended. And at a certain point can be real, to the extent real is real.

I also said that the story could be eliminated and the process still "work". I dont know how you would conceptually and telepathicly say Inc 2 to the bt....but I'm sure something could be mocked up.

Ron was trying to move people from one state to another, just as jesus told parables, perhaps he used a convenient model that COULD be understood, and thus applied. I dont see evil in it if it is a lie. I see efficacy. I see it as something appropriately real in its context. NOTS takes a different tack and other practices others....

And really OT3 is just an incident with some new concept as a what to audit, at this stage of the game perhaps not the insurmoutable wall it may have been.

Scientology is a paradigm valid in a certain context, but not the grand answer to all that is. It is (was) a workable way out. (currently blocked and under repair by a shoddy workman)

The real question is did it move you to greater understanding? Or trap you in its construct.

I would say in your case the former.

 

[Dulloldfart]

The real question is did it move you to greater understanding? Or trap you in its construct.

I would say in your case the former.

I would agree with you. But it took a while to get the glue off.

Paul

 

[Zinjifar]

I would agree with you. But it took a while to get the glue off.

Paul

Alex *likes* the glue.

Zinj

 

[Mark A. Baker]

But please forgo the asshole nonsense loopiness that I give a damn.

Not much hope in that, BB. V's sense of reality is more than slightly skewed.

I think the only posts he ever actually reads are his own. They are clearly the only ones he shows any sign of comprehending.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

By that I mean that I, for example, am in better case shape and could solo audit it far better now than 30 years ago when I actually did OT3, but I don't find it in the least real.

And as you said before, any gains you personally are apt to have as result of doing the level you had from doing it 30 years ago. Since then you have addressed many personal areas with regard to your spirituality. Your perspectives have thus altered from where you were before. In your current condition it would have little or nothing to offer you further. That does not itself negate the possible benefits to someone else doing the level. It simply underscores that it is no longer an appropriate action for you.

Further, whatever utility it has can only be for someone who has arrived at a point where he is both willing and able to look during the course of an auditing session at the subject of the session AND he is not yet past a point in his personal development of gaining a reasonable benefit from doing so. That is in keeping with the traditional recommendation of who & how to do the level.

Auditing on any subject which is "unreal" to a pc is NOT going to benefit the pc. That is CERTAIN. It is only to the degree a subject is "real" to a pc that he is willing to LOOK for himself at whatever "charge" may be associated with the topic. It's not a matter of belief. It's a question of "willingness to look".


Mark A. Baker

 

[alex]

I would agree with you. But it took a while to get the glue off.

Paul

 

[nw2394]

Without the "Xenu story," there is no "OT 3."

You sound roughly as obsessed about it as a Churchie is about defending confidentiality.

Just - well - hang loose or something.

Nick

 

[alex]

Not much hope in that, BB. V's sense of reality is more than slightly skewed.

I think the only posts he ever actually reads are his own. They are clearly the only ones he shows any sign of comprehending.


Mark A. Baker

No. He is more aware of what he does than that. I wish he would open up, but its his decision.

I protect myself, he does too.

Shame is he has valuable experience that I would love to vicariously access, but he seems to feel he NEEDS to push the rather limited message he does.

 

[nw2394]

By that I mean that I, for example, am in better case shape and could solo audit it far better now than 30 years ago when I actually did OT3, but I don't find it in the least real. It is real to me that there are the little bits of life-force that can be usefully addressed, but not at all real that there was some catastrophic historical event or that they are entire spiritual beings. It was not real to me in terms of personal perception that there was such an event when I first did the level, only real that Hubbard had said that there was.

Paul

My experience was - well - in a lot of ways similar.

I could have done without the Cherub shit - didn't need to know anything about Inc 1 at all really - maybe a simple "return to start of track" or some such command might have been useful for a few sessions - but the ones that needed to go that far back would have found their own "basic" or whatever you want to call it anyway.

Inc 2 - am happy and indeed was happy even prior to doing 3 that some sort of shit was going down in the society of the time. Didn't really need to know a lot more - the political side was unnecessary extra data. Interesting I guess - to see Hubbard's ideas - also the Pilot's - and also comparing notes with others - but not strictly necessary info.

I would also agree that some (a lot) of what comes up on 3 and indeed NOTs is not "entire spiritual beings" as you put it. Charged incidents maybe - that someone, somewhere still has stuck attention on. But some - a few - did seem genuinely quite alive and were more like auditing a real person than a few stuck attention units (or however you describe them).

It's still the same today - can find a bunch of stuff - not too earth shattering for the most part - then you get a real live kicker or two.

Nick

 

[Veda]

Without the "Xenu story," there is no "OT 3."

-snip-

You sound roughly as obsessed about it as a Churchie is about defending confidentiality.

Just - well - hang loose or something.

Nick

You should be thanking me, but instead you're delivering a low blow like a punk.

Disappointing.

 

[Zinjifar]

Thank you already

if it was a *good* carrier choice, none of us would be Scientology Critics.

We like *large* dragons of the vicious temperment.

Zinj

 

[degraded being]

L Ron Hubbard was a paranoid schizophrenic sociopath.
He was delusional.
OT3 is the product of a deranged mind.
"Body thetans" or "entities" are also products of L Ron Hubbards deranged mind.
If you have been convinced that these delusions are reality, you may be able to find help with a psyhiatrist in your area.

 

[nw2394]

L Ron Hubbard was a paranoid schizophrenic sociopath.
He was delusional.
OT3 is the product of a deranged mind.

Whatever Hubbard's state of mind was is, to me, largely irrelevant - interesting to read some stories about him true - but, for f***'s sake, the man has been dead over 20 years - who really gives a shit now.

"Body thetans" or "entities" are also products of L Ron Hubbards deranged mind.
If you have been convinced that these delusions are reality, you may be able to find help with a psyhiatrist in your area.

I am on record, on freezone, pro LRH mailing lists (and probably this board too), as saying the "Body Thetans" is a poor metaphor. I didn't like it from the day I first read it - and it didn't really equate with my auditing experience. That doesn't mean to say there is nothing to it.

Perhaps the difference between my experience of 3 (and probably a whole heap of other stuff), compared to how some other people have found it, is that I would always allow whatever came up in the session to simply be what it was.

Some of it might have had similarity to what Hubbard wrote - some might have been similar to other things I've read or heard from other people - and some of it seems quite different to anything anyone ever said. I treated it all the same and was prepared to use a quite different process from the one 'recommended' if it seemed appropriate.

I suppose another difference is that I've never really been hung up about "the Grade Chart" or "EPs" or "We've started this list - so we've got to do all 159 questions on it now that we've started", or "status". I've always been happy to run something as long as it produced some apparently worthwhile change and then drop it in favour of something else - or even do nothing for the time being.

Nick

 

[Alanzo]

My defining moment

When I allowed myself to realize that L Ron Hubbard was a major liar.

 

[Vinaire]

One of my defining moments

When Flag arbitrarily shut down the Special Schedules Course and didn't care at all about its earlier committment.

.

 

[CornPie]

Zinjifar said to all> Without the 'Xenu Story' and OTIII there is no pressing *need* for KSW [Keepling scientology Working]. No excuse for the evil of Scientology. Silly as it is, Xenu/OTIII is absolutely essential to justifying Scientology's need to control the universe.

My (CornPie) reply to Zinjifar> Zinj, could you please spell out the logic behind your statement? I don't get it. How could L ron hubbard's ludicrous nonsense 'Xenu story', have anything to do with world domination.

 

[Zinjifar]

Zinjifar said to all> Without the 'Xenu Story' and OTIII there is no pressing *need* for KSW [Keepling scientology Working]. No excuse for the evil of Scientology. Silly as it is, Xenu/OTIII is absolutely essential to justifying Scientology's need to control the universe.

My (CornPie) reply to Zinjifar> Zinj, could you please spell out the logic behind your statement? I don't get it. How could L ron hubbard's ludicrous nonsense 'Xenu story', have anything to do with world domination.

OTIII reveals the *plot* against humanity and life itself. It's what stands behind Ron's claim that Scientology is Mankind's Only Hope. And, being Mankind's Only Hope is what justifies Scientology's crimes, because they're necessary for the 'greater good'.

Zinj

 

[CornPie]

Zinjifar replied to myself (CornPie)> OTIII reveals the *plot* against humanity and life itself. It's what stands behind Ron's claim that Scientology is Mankind's Only Hope. And, being Mankind's Only Hope is what justifies Scientology's crimes, because they're necessary for the 'greater good'.

My response (CornPie) to Zinjifar> Thanks, I never put 2 + 2 together before, but now I get it -- scientology actually believes that hubbard-ass'es Xenu BS is important. And all this time I just laughed at the lunacy.

What scientology is saying is; the only hope for mankind, is for the world to be taken over by a bunch of sick f***ing OT3 lunatics -- who actually believe in; invisible body thetans, stupid-ass clusters, Xenu the galactic overlord, hydrogen bombs + DC-9's 75 million years ago, sectors of the universe, etc. Which is all BS, that hubbard-ass made up -- and which so many of his own OT3's never bought, or now recognize as BS. But filthy-scientology thinks the world would be saner with dictators Lrh and DM in charge -- beating the s*** out of their staff, and ruthlessly fairgaming anybody they want.

Meanwhile numerous scientologists and FreeZoners on this thread are saying, "Who cares, what's the difference if people think Xenu is BS or not?"