The Delusion of Reformed Scientology

Wisened One

Crusader
Bobthesp wanted me to post this for him. I made him type it up, because he doesn't have an invalid point, necessarily.

Wanted to discuss this on ESMB.
.......................................................................................................

I apologize in advance for giving some a failed purpose, but....

You cannot reform scientology and this is why:

Let's take disconnection:

Even if you could get the church to cancel the concept
of disconnection, it will do no good.

There are too many references in scientology that thoroughly explain the dangers of being connected to a suppressive person.
Once a person is officially declared an SP ,it is second nature (even to a crappily-trained scientologist) to stop talking to or being around them (the SP).

Even if you took away the 'requirement' to disconnect, a good scientologist would still do it based on all the other references on the subject.

They would have to cancel all of the pts/sp tech and even then, it would take decades to get everyone to adjust.

Even then, it would cause an uprising of a lot of scientologists saying that the church has gone squirrel. There is no winning on this one.

It would be nice if the church would just stop declaring people, that would help, but they cannot do that because, there again they would have to cancel most of the pts/sp tech.

These practices ARE scientology. Taking something away would be akin to
removing a significant portion of the teachings of Jesus or Mohammed.

It just cannot be done.

The attitudes in the church-that have given rise to all that is being protested-are formed by the tech itself. These attitudes about abuse, coerced abortions, the unimportance of family-and the biggest falsehood of all-the unimportance of this entire lifetime, etc. ARE scientology.

That IS what scientology IS.

I am not saying that you should stop Protesting. There are very valid reasons to do so, the most important of which is to educate the general public as to what scientology is really all about, thereby saving many from joining to begin with.

There are a lot of good reasons to Protest, but just don't fool yourself
into thinking that the result will be the 'reform' of the church. It could very well be that it will cause the downfall of the current scientology structure, which I consider a good thing, but another will form and it will eventually be just as screwed up as the current one.

It is the nature of the beast.
...................................................................................................

Thoughts? :drama:
 

Mystic

Crusader
I think we will all be quite successfully disconnected from this bilge of Hubbard spew when it just dies dieS diES dIES DIES.

Plop.

Dead.
 

Lohan2008

Gold Meritorious Patron
reform

I don't have a problem with what you said Bobthesp,,,
It took me years to let go of the anger I held to those who had hurt me, it is VERY fortunate that as a group we can share our hurts and seek forgiveness for what we did, by helping others.
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
...
There are too many references in scientology that thoroughly explain the dangers of being connected to a suppressive person.
Once a person is officially declared an SP ,it is second nature (even to a crappily-trained scientologist) to stop talking to or being around them (the SP).
...

All the SP declares should be canceled and apologies given. You need to have a true SP (or PTS to a true SP) to declare SP someone who is not.

BTW, I also want all the gag agreements canceled on Co$ part, so that gagged people (Gerry Armstrong and others) could freely speak their mind and experiences without legal threats and harassment.
 

Div6

Crusader
.......
The attitudes in the church-that have given rise to all that is being protested-are formed by the tech itself. These attitudes about abuse, coerced abortions, the unimportance of family-and the biggest falsehood of all-the unimportance of this entire lifetime, etc. ARE scientology.

That IS what scientology IS.
..........

Well, to some people, that is NOT what the philosophy of Scientology is AT ALL. It may be what the Religion of Scientology Based On The Works of L. Ron Hubbard IS, or has become.

I will give you one small example. In the philosophy of Scn it is stated that auditing a person over an ARCX WORSEN's the person's 'case'. Common decency (and the Auditors Code) would require that the ARCX's be handled first.

The Religion of Scientology actively ARCX's people.......is that 'Standard Tech' or 'Reverse Processing'? I don't expect this will change anything, but I just wanted to point out that some people do see a difference.

And yeah, I've got goldenrod. They didn't like what I had to say either.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
The SP and PTS thing seems to be just a part of a big and basic aspect of Scientology, which is that Scientology 'case gain' is always fragile and vulnerable. The 'tech' is so amazingly powerful, and yet, somehow, the slightest little thing can totally screw a Scientologist up: getting audited by someone who doesn't perfectly follow the 'standard' procedures, chatting with someone who has the wrong ideas, reading the wrong paragraph. And even the Scientologist themselves might 'pull something in'. A really large portion of Scientology seems to be about all the dangers that threaten Scientologists.

As long as the paranoid fear of all these tiny but deadly influences is such a big part of Scientology, it will drag Scientologists, like a riptide, into coercion and abuse. Frightened people will demand security first, above all from their religion; and they will tolerate all kinds of evil, if it promises security.

A reformed Scientology would have to be a Scientology free of all the fear. It would have to be a confident Scientology, a Scientology that knew its tech still worked even when not quite perfectly applied, and that its auditing was so effective, that nothing could possibly happen to a Scientologist that couldn't easily be straightened out with an extra hour or two holding the cans. That would be a really insouciant Scientology; it would laugh at the ridiculous notion of restricting its members' information and communication.

But the problem seems to be that Scientology 'technology' only really delivers occasional and transitory bursts of euphoria, and perhaps some basic life skills coaching and confidence building, at the level one can also obtain from night school, or a challenging hiking trip, or a good self-help book. Would that be enough for a reformed Scientology to offer, and still be a competitive option for people to choose? But if a reformed Scientology stuck to the claims for Clear and OT superpowers, could it possibly do without the million excuses for why they weren't actually appearing?

And if it did resort to the million excuses, wouldn't that create the same unreformed fear among reformed Scientologists, of losing all their spiritual gains to the slightest wrong influence, such as connection to an SP?
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Scientology is a word that some people have had tattooed to the inside of their skulls. These folks can't stop being Scientologists. They know they're good, so the real Scientology, whatever that is, must be good. The rationalizations of Scientologists range from sophisticated and slick, to innocently childlike, to painfully contorted.
 

lexmark

Patron with Honors
I disagree. There are hundreds of declared scientologists probably thousands, even those on the flagship who were close to Hubbard that are now on the declared list including myself. I know many of these people and they are good descent people who are against the disconnection policy. There are over 4 hundred on facebook of persons against disconnection. These policies could be easily cancelled by anyone in a top position. It is not senior policy, it's Miscavaige's "mindset"

Did Miscaviage ever attend school? What is his educational level. Probably has no concept of helping people, probably takes delight in others misfortune and appears to be an abusive type. Take Norman Starkey. He is at the top along with Miscaviage, Director of Author Services and cannot be removed from post as LRH appointed him - this was told to me by his brother Owen. I know norman and worked with him both as his senior and junior. He is a nut case and an abusive type. Also an alcoholic. He is per LRH illiterate (mentioned to my wife by LRH and ordered to get him word cleared).

This diconnection policy is endangering the establishment of Scientology and if ever scientology gets banned by the authorities it will be directly as a result of the disconnection policy. Therefore it is in violation of Scientolgy's "Senior Policy" "TO MAINTAIN FRIENDLY RELATIONS WITH THE ENVIRONMENT" There is no plolicy senior to that.

It is my belief based on my experience in Scientology that Miscaviage is a psycho along with his buddy Starkey. It's obvious because "he is destroying the oufit". In any event I don't really care as it is my opinion that Scientology is an obsolete practice being run by a bunch of screwballs.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Therefore it is in violation of Scientolgy's "Senior Policy" "TO MAINTAIN FRIENDLY RELATIONS WITH THE ENVIRONMENT" There is no plolicy senior to that.

-snip-

Jeez, not that again.

"Maintain friendly relations" has to do with "handling" the "raw meat" and the "wogs." Hubbard, around 1970 or so - in a non-confidential issue - said it was "senior policy" or "first policy," but, of course, "maintaining friendly relations" includes using deception, manipulation, blackmail, hush money, trickery, harassive lawsuits, and anything that "works" to "maintain friendly relations."

As for "disconnection," that's been part of Scientology before the word Scientology was used. Then, "SPs" were called "1.1" or "below 2.0 on the tone scale." One knew how to spot these, as their attitude toward L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics/Scientology would tell you.

As early as 1951, Hubbard wanted the "antis" rounded up, denied all rights, re-educated into something he found acceptable, or disposed of quietly and without sorrow.

Scientology's senior tech and its senior policy are confidential. It's not unusual for part of its tech or policy to be publicized, with the rest kept behind the scenes. For example, "Create a safe environment" sounds benign enough; unfortunately it's only the earlier part of, "Create a safe environment for Scientology to expand into." Hubbard attempted to do that when he went after Paulette Cooper and her little paperback book, had one of his goons tell his daughter that he wasn't her father and that her mother was a Nazi prostitute, had his private Fair-Game-Law-applying Intelligence network spy on his enemies, collect blackmail through any means including auditing sessions, infiltrate private and government offices, and attempt to "teminatedly handle" the mayor of Clearwater Florida, and the list of examples goes on and on.
 

lexmark

Patron with Honors
Jeez, not that again.

"Maintain friendly relations" has to do with "handling" the "raw meat" and the "wogs." Hubbard, around 1970 or so - in a non-confidential issue - said it was "senior policy" or "first policy," but, of course, "maintaining friendly relations" includes using deception, manipulation, blackmail, hush money, trickery, harassive lawsuits, and anything that "works" to "maintain friendly relations."

As for "disconnection," that's been part of Scientology before the word Scientology was used. Then, "SPs" were called "1.1" or "below 2.0 on the tone scale." One knew how to spot these, as their attitude toward L. Ron Hubbard and Dianetics/Scientology would tell you.

As early as 1951, Hubbard wanted the "antis" rounded up, denied all rights, re-educated into something he found acceptable, or disposed of quietly and without sorrow.

Scientology's senior tech and its senior policy are confidential. It's not unusual for part of its tech or policy to be publicized, with the rest kept behind the scenes. For example, "Create a safe environment" sounds benign enough; unfortunately it's only the earlier part of, "Create a safe environment for Scientology to expand into." Hubbard attempted to do that when he went after Paulette Cooper and her little paperback book, had one of his goons tell his daughter that he wasn't her father and that her mother was a Nazi prostitute, had his private Fair-Game-Law-applying Intelligence network spy on his enemies, collect blackmail through any means including auditing sessions, infiltrate private and government offices, and attempt to "teminatedly handle" the mayor of Clearwater Florida, and the list of examples goes on and on.

I am not acquainted with that part of Scientology, sounds like GO stuff. All I know was my experience with 22 years in the group in senior positions and how I handled what I needed to handle.

I knew LRH had a bad temper and I experienced his wrath 1st hand.

But as I said in a previous post "LRH himself laid the tombstone for Scientology because of his ethics policies.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
In Leviticus, it says to murder homosexuals.

Yet Jews and Christians don't go around murdering homosexuals any more, and Churches and Synagogues don't teach that this is what you should do when you find a homosexual in your midst.

It's in the scripture, yet it is not practiced.

Why?
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I have never thought CofS could be reformed due to the insane policies. Even if you got new people in charge who wanted to ditch any, there still would be differing views on which ones to ditch and how to implement things.

I think the indies and FZers, however, have an entirely different thing going, partly because it's not centrally organized, and also because "Squirrelling" and other non purist views are tolerated in some areas, and actually encouraged in others.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Bobthesp:
You cannot reform scientology and this is why:

Let's take disconnection:

Even if you could get the church to cancel the concept
of disconnection, it will do no good.

There are too many references in scientology that thoroughly explain the dangers of being connected to a suppressive person.

The concept of disconnecting from someone who is invalidating your gains, while you are getting auditing, is sensible. The problem is declaring people suppressive who aren't actually antisocial, but are merely against CofS abuses and talking about it. Even Hubbard did this with people he wanted to shut up or remove an audience from.

In order to continue its criminal actions, the CofS must continue to enforce disconnection and preventing the free flow of communication. If they fail to do this then the faithful will find out about the criminality and scams and stop paying money and supporting Miscavige. The CofS could stop doing further criminal actions and abuses right now (in theory, anyway!). But there is so much damage already done, and so much evidence of it already online let alone what else could be said by those too terrified to open their mouths, that it is too late. The CofS can't just abandon disconnection and allow the free flow of information and imagine that people will suddenly think warm fuzzies about them.

And once the CofS ADMITS to all the criminal actions, they will be flooded with lawsuits seeking damages. Even without punitive damages, merely making those ripped off who are still living whole again (financially) will wipe them out.

Paul
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
In Leviticus, it says to murder homosexuals.

Yet Jews and Christians don't go around murdering homosexuals any more, and Churches and Synagogues don't teach that this is what you should do when you find a homosexual in your midst.

It's in the scripture, yet it is not practiced.

Why?
Good point Alanzo. It is not practiced because because it is incompatible with conscience. Conscience is senior to scripture, in my opinion.
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
good one

In Leviticus, it says to murder homosexuals.

Yet Jews and Christians don't go around murdering homosexuals any more, and Churches and Synagogues don't teach that this is what you should do when you find a homosexual in your midst.

It's in the scripture, yet it is not practiced.

Why?

This is a great example of why Scientology will probably never just go away. People who want to believe in something can justify the cognitive dissonance and will just go on believing anyway, because it eases their anxiety about the fear of death and the promise of "something better down the line".

This is what sticks people to ANY religion. This is why any organized religion keeps on going. The Catholic priest child abuse scandal didn't stop Catholicism.

People who want to believe will go on doing just that, and will overlook any logical reasons that show their religion is crap. Even when those reasons are right there in the sacred scripture.
 

nw2394

Silver Meritorious Patron
The attitudes in the church-that have given rise to all that is being protested-are formed by the tech itself. These attitudes about abuse, coerced abortions, the unimportance of family-and the biggest falsehood of all-the unimportance of this entire lifetime, etc. ARE scientology.

While I have a lot of sympathy with those who are against the CoS, this statement simply isn't true. We do not have enforced abortions in the FZ/indepenedent field - including the more "standard" parts of it. Nor do we have disconnection, nor do we have "unimportance of family". And the "tech" hasn't been unwritten in the more standard areas of the FZ either.

I do agree that it takes time, in some cases a lot of time, for those abused by the CoS to get things into perspective again.

And I do agree that some of Hubbard writings take some getting into perspective - abused by anyone or not.

But I don't agree that the whole thing is inherently evil.

Nick
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
In Leviticus, it says to murder homosexuals.

Yet Jews and Christians don't go around murdering homosexuals any more, and Churches and Synagogues don't teach that this is what you should do when you find a homosexual in your midst.

It's in the scripture, yet it is not practiced.

Why?

Not every Jew or Christian subscribes to fundamentalist theories of what Scripture is. In fact, only a small minority do. And it's the looser attitude that is ancient and traditional. Literalism is a relatively recent innovation, that just happens to be vocal in the United States.

Islam has a much stronger sense of Scriptural authority than Judaism or Christianity, in that every syllable of the Arabic text is held to have been explicitly revealed by God through a single Prophet. Yet even Islam has a long tradition of interpreting the Qu'ran in sophisticated ways, often softening literal meanings considerably in practice.

Scientology has less opportunity to be flexible, in one way, because its Scriptures were all written by one man, in living memory. And Hubbard wasn't a mere channel like Mohammed, but the original Source. Yet on the other hand, there's no obvious logical requirement in basic Scientology doctrine for Hubbard to have been infallible. There ought to be no problem at all with Scientologists scrapping big chunks of Hubbard, and rewriting whatever's left, in the light of collective Scientology experience since Hubbard's death.

Well, maybe there would be two problems. Firstly, Hubbard did write a lot about how terrible it was to 'squirrel' his 'tech'. But if you're determined to scrap a lot of Hubbard, anyway, you can easily scrap this part, too.

Maybe more seriously: once you open the floodgates to let anyone edit Hubbard, it's not clear how long any single system recognizable as Scientology would survive. Scientology might simply dissolve into the wider sea of technobabble spiritual movements. It's a tough phase for any religion to get through, maintaining its identity in the generation or two immediately after the founder has left the scene. But maybe this kind of dissolution is the ideal outcome for Scientology: a very free Freezone, all squirrels welcome, no rigid borders at all.
 
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