The difference between FZ and CofS

[nw2394]

Good point FTS!.... <blah blah blah snipped>...You culties creep me out. Can't you read?????

How pleasant of you.

I observe that Emma makes up her own mind.

For what it is worth, what makes ESMB valuable in my opinion is the mix of viewpoints. What you're suggesting would make this place into another a.r.s. Puke.

Nick

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Actually, it would be worse than that...

ARS, although it can be rather hostile, does allow any post by anybody. Terril posts there -and there he DOES proselytize which is NOT what I was doing with this thread AT ALL-and only gets a modicum of shit. Hardly any. Ralph Hilton sometimes posts there- in fact, that's where I "met" him, so to speak, and he's actually well liked there.

Rarely on a.r.s. does one EVER see anybody try to order people off forums. Everyone there knows it's not something that's going to work out or that would make any sense.

ARS will always occupy a VERY special place in my heart. It's where I first met many people whom I now consider my friends- and many of them do not have ANY use for Scn. It led to me leaving CofS and, believe it or not, led to my hearing about the FZ- I never would have heard of it were it not for a.r.s.

The friends I made on a.r.s. are mature nice decent people who really don't mind someone else taking the road less traveled, so it seems to work out fine. I mean, if I asked them what they thought about Scn or some idea I had or agreed with, they'd sure as hell tell me, but it wouldn't be a problem or turn ugly or anything.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

The term "Hubtoad" reminds me of Dennis Erlich.

.

Reminds me of a very nice lady named Beverly Rice (on a.r.s.) who used to use it. She doesn't like Scn at all, but she is a really really really nice person. And, no, I'm not implying that Bev is now posting here under another identity. I don't think that for one nanosecond.

I have not seen any posts by her in a long time and I'd like to take a digression here just to say that if Bev or anyone who knows her, reads this- please know that Bev is in my heart and lots of cyberhugs from me to her.

 

[GreyLensman]

In CofS, you can't criticize it or anybody in it. (they didn't like it, when, as a member, I said I did not like Jeff Pomerantz when I met him.)

Freeeee at last, free at last.

I thought he was a pompous no-talent hack with delusions of celebrity. Jeff who?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

And for the record, apparently many of us on this board cannot really read, or write, even with the benefit of advanced, 2008 spellcheckers on our computers. (Nevermind starting sentences out with prepositions or conjunctions! Obviously, I need Key to Life)

I think we can read just fine. For instance, almost everyone on this thread seems to realize that they are posting on a section entitled Freezone.


Here is a link to the "sticky" posted by the forum owner/admin, who created this section:


http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=48

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Freeeee at last, free at last.

I thought he was a pompous no-talent hack with delusions of celebrity. Jeff who?

Oh, I totally didn't like him. He was at somebody's house and we were asked to go there for an event. We went at the drop of a hat because we thought, for some reason, that our friends who phoned us sounded scared.

Jeff was a pompous windbag condescending prick.

And when I heard his version of "Can we ever be friends" and his reading of Ai Pedrito, I was totally grossed out.

 

[Free to shine]

Good point FTS! I know many X Sea Org, lots of highly trained auditors, supervisors, OTs and execs.

None of us would do so much as a touch assist, let alone charge money for Hubbard crap.

Believing in L. Ron Hubbard AFTER you have access to the truth about his history and lies is just inexcusible.

I agree Ladybird, however I believe ESMB is more for that difficult recovery stage where one does start to find out the truth...somewhere to discuss the issues - because where else is there? Where does someone go when they are at the early stages of starting to see? I think that's why Emma put the section there more than anything else.

It can be such a long process, to be able to stand back enough to see the big picture and many seem unwilling to, and will never let go of some pieces. I think that's OK...we are all different....it certainly isn't my view...but as long as discussion takes place then viewpoints can change.

I do have a problem with the arrogance of the Hubbard mindset, yet I also remember when I had it too. As Lionheart said in a recent post "I am them". I get frustrated with the "Freezone is different to the Church" stuff most of all. Hey, you can lead a horse to water and all that...I hope that reading here, reading the real truth and experiences of many, many people, will help people we will never know to open their eyes and have a closer look. And hopefully realise that the "tech" so aggressively held onto can be found in better, more useable and certainly cheaper forms elsewhere.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

So then there shouldn't be a problem if someone posts in this section, then, right? Since it was created and all?

And in any case, I was NOT proselytizing or disseminating. I was discussing the differences between it and CofS. Even ideologically, the differences are there since CofS, it's all one way (Til DM changes it, of course. Heh!) and in the FZ there're many offshoots, interpretations etc. And the practices, the organizational structure, fair game, etc.

I do not understand what arrogance you are perceiving in this thread or maybe elsewhere in this section of ESMB on the part of Freezoners or other heretical Scn'ists. I don't see that exploring the differences between the cult and the non CofS Scn'ists and other heretical types (to me "heretic" is a compliment) denotes arrogance. Not to say that heretics can't be arrogant, it's just that I don't see that it comes into play re this thread.

Personally, I don't care if people do FZ. In fact, there are people I'd rather see NOT do it.

By the way--I'm not a Freezoner.

 

[GreyLensman]

Good point FTS! I know many X Sea Org, lots of highly trained auditors, supervisors, OTs and execs.

None of us would do so much as a touch assist, let alone charge money for Hubbard crap.

Believing in L. Ron Hubbard AFTER you have access to the truth about his history and lies is just inexcusible.

I really wish all you feezone recruiters and Hubtoad fans would go spend your own time and money to make your own recruitment websites rather than take advantage of all the work and expense Emma has done here. You are ruining her board by stalking newly out scientologists who are vulnerable to scientology.

You culties creep me out. Can't you read?????

Help!!! I can feel you sucking out my braaaaaiiiins... Mmmmmmmmmmmm.
Braaaaiiiinnnnssszzzzzzz...

 

[Voltaire's Child]

With some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

 

[Boldgirl]

Good point FTS! I know many X Sea Org, lots of highly trained auditors, supervisors, OTs and execs.

None of us would do so much as a touch assist, let alone charge money for Hubbard crap.

Believing in L. Ron Hubbard AFTER you have access to the truth about his history and lies is just inexcusible.

I really wish all you feezone recruiters and Hubtoad fans would go spend your own time and money to make your own recruitment websites rather than take advantage of all the work and expense Emma has done here. You are ruining her board by stalking newly out scientologists who are vulnerable to scientology.

You culties creep me out. Can't you read?????

I second that motion.

Different day, same rantings from FZ's-reckless good intentions. ...FZ's applying the same hubbard nonsense to spiritual freedom from....what? still no one has answered that. PPLLEEAASSEEE go advertise elsewhere and please someone get these FZ scientologists off this place...this board exists also I thought to help those sitting on the fence that need to know the truth and then they read about FZ's and just go from cult A to cult B.

It's like trying to comm with amy other SCN.. dont see beyond their own thick filters. So FZ doesnt have an OSA, and an RFP. But you still have the same exact idea as the CofS that you can apply a madmans tech to innocent minds and that you are experts in spiritual freedom and dont need permission to do whatever you want with tech that has hurt,and IS hurting people.

I agree, you culties make me sick. I have seen what this tech can do myself...and it's dangerous, dangerous dangerous and as long as I am breathing will expose this crap for what it is and say it as straight and rudely as I can. I dont want anyone else to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from 2 years later....oh I know--'scn can help me with that-right?'.

WAKE UP FZ'S FOR GODS SAKE!!!!! I am sure you are great great people ... take your glasses off!

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Boldgirl,

I did not post the post/create the thread to advertise. I wanted to discuss the differences. That's all. I'd post the same thing even if I turned into a Scn-disliker or whatnot.

I'm not a Freezoner and I have criticized it many times.

I'd be just as happy to see anyone post commentary here saying they don't like the FZ or whatever. Fine with me. But what I do not think is good are posts ad hom posts about people on the forum and that's the ONLY thing you could EVER do that would cause me to disapprove. Really. If I heard that you took out a full page display ad in the NY Times condemning the Freezone, I'd shrug and say it was your freedom of choice.

All I did here was discuss the differences. It is not to be taken as a recommendation.

Really.

Please don't do the Freezone.

Please describe your objections to it. But rather than post ad homs and adjurations to "wake up" why not post some direct specific commentary about the Freezone itself.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I have seen what this tech can do myself...and it's dangerous, dangerous dangerous and as long as I am breathing will expose this crap for what it is and say it as straight and rudely as I can. I dont want anyone else to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from 2 years later....oh I know--'scn can help me with that-right?'.

I'm very glad you posted that. I think criticism of the FZ and anything else is healthy.

But then again, I didn't start the thread to praise or proselytize.

As long as you leave out the advice to people on the forum and the ad homs, I think this could totally be cool.

 

[Free to shine]

I second that motion.

Different day, same rantings from FZ's-reckless good intentions. ...FZ's applying the same hubbard nonsense to spiritual freedom from....what? still no one has answered that. PPLLEEAASSEEE go advertise elsewhere and please someone get these FZ scientologists off this place...this board exists also I thought to help those sitting on the fence that need to know the truth and then they read about FZ's and just go from cult A to cult B.

It's like trying to comm with amy other SCN.. dont see beyond their own thick filters. So FZ doesnt have an OSA, and an RFP. But you still have the same exact idea as the CofS that you can apply a madmans tech to innocent minds and that you are experts in spiritual freedom and dont need permission to do whatever you want with tech that has hurt,and IS hurting people.

I agree, you culties make me sick. I have seen what this tech can do myself...and it's dangerous, dangerous dangerous and as long as I am breathing will expose this crap for what it is and say it as straight and rudely as I can. I dont want anyone else to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from 2 years later....oh I know--'scn can help me with that-right?'.

WAKE UP FZ'S FOR GODS SAKE!!!!! I am sure you are great great people ... take your glasses off!

I am anything but a Hubbardology fan as my posts show. Yet I am glad to have been able to read exactly what the Freezone is all about. I like data, it puts the jigsaw pieces together. I think the posts speak for themselves, and the attitudes. All parts of the picture.
And anyone reading this thread who hasn't done so, should read Veda's posts.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Hi, FTS,

As I hope you know, I've always liked you.

Anyway, yeah, I think that knowing what is and isn't the FZ (and it's so looseknit anyway, kinda hard to really pin it down, in some ways, IMO) is a good thing for detractors as well as for people who like it.

Mebbe I shoulda put a disclaimer on the inaugural post on this thread. Dunno. But it prolly wouldn't have made a difference in some respects.

I have always gotten along ok with Veda. Seems like we've always been able to agree to disagree. Isn't that really the best way? Seems to me that we can tell each other how we feel without beating each other up. 'Leastaways, I always felt I could do that with you, with Veda, with all kinds of people here and on other forums.

Hell, my husband doesn't even totally agree with or like my views on Scn in some ways, some of them. And it doesn't hurt us or cause fights and believe me, both of us can be very opinionated, very heartfelt.

Point is, I think we can discuss disagreements without being mean to each other and posting ad homs. You are a great example of this as you are always a class act. It still wouldn't be perfect, people'd get pissed off sometimes, but in general, it could be mostly ok.

Why can't people just discuss their disagreements without posting scathing nasty ad homs? It's not like it accomplishes anything! Shit, there's someone who's written reams of stuff like that and did it change anything? Hell no. It just rakes much.

I'm totally fine with people not liking the FZ. When I'mOut posted on this thread, once I got the clarification I asked for, my thoughts were empatheitc- toward I'mOut- and I was glad I'mOut posted those thoughts. Like I said, in no way do I consider the FZ to be unworthy of criticism.

Thank you for reading this.

 

[gomorrhan]

Read it all. Read the pro, read the con, read the "fuck the whole thing" bunch. I, personally, believe the Road to Xenu shouldn't be walked. My position can be ambiguous to some, as it's a bit complicated, but it basically boils down to that there are parts that are useful, and worth knowing, and there are parts that are bogus, in my view, and are dangerous to use with others or "one themself". I strongly believe that the Church of Scientology is a danger to individuals, to families, to communities and nations it is allowed to operate within, and should be disbanded and analyzed, as Zinj says, by forensic accountants. I consider that the Freezone/Independents are less dangerous, because they don't all advocate the Road to Xenu, and many are genuinely helpful people who are just trying to be of use to "their fellow man". I also don't think they are a danger to families, communities or any nations, and don't aspire to be.

Ultimately, Hubbard drank from many sources, and those sources are sometimes of value, and sometimes farcical or dangerous.

As ex-scientologists, I think that many here have enough experience with the Church and with the use of scientology to know the difference, or they will learn, if they play with fire. I played with fire. I got very badly burned, but I walked away "intact", and not as badly burned as others. I liken any scientology stuff "above" NED to playing with fire (Wall of Fire?), some walk away, and some become pretty batshit crazy. Same with dropping acid! Some people feel it is enlightening (and it can be), some people find it frightening (and it can be), and others would NEVER take a chance with their minds. Read about it. See if you really want to train yourself to accept the reality of implants that Hubbard laid out, so that you can then run them out in session: it's a waste of time, unless understood as strictly an exercise with no basis in reality, and worse, if you do come to believe it, perhaps you, too, could enjoy the fate of Lisa McPherson! Or maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones who come through the other side with your mind intact, but having wasted a lot of time and energy better spent in a hammock listening to the sea.

Questions of identity are real questions, but CC-OTIII aren't real solutions, IMO. Your mileage may vary. Just don't say you weren't warned.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Ok, my participation in this thread is now at an end.

If anyone wants to comment further on what I've said I won't see it if it's actually on the thread.

If anyone for some reason wants to have a discussion with me, then that can take place on some other thread or in a PM.

I appreciate everyone's candor. Freedom of speech is the issue that caused me to leave CofS and I support anyone's right to criticize any issue whatsoever.

 

[Boldgirl]

Boldgirl,

I did not post the post/create the thread to advertise. I wanted to discuss the differences. That's all. I'd post the same thing even if I turned into a Scn-disliker or whatnot.

I'm not a Freezoner and I have criticized it many times.

I'd be just as happy to see anyone post commentary here saying they don't like the FZ or whatever. Fine with me. But what I do not think is good are posts ad hom posts about people on the forum and that's the ONLY thing you could EVER do that would cause me to disapprove. Really. If I heard that you took out a full page display ad in the NY Times condemning the Freezone, I'd shrug and say it was your freedom of choice.

All I did here was discuss the differences. It is not to be taken as a recommendation.

Really.

Please don't do the Freezone.

Please describe your objections to it. But rather than post ad homs and adjurations to "wake up" why not post some direct specific commentary about the Freezone itself.

This was a general post to anyone FZ'ing and obviously advertising. Not sure what you mean on the rest. I will continue to warn people any way I can Fluffy.

These are the very boards that helped me figure things out and see the truth...so if there is ever another 'me' out there looking and questioning...I want to make sure they hear me loud and clear because it just isnt funny to me, it isnt even remotely worth being polite about-
I dont care about any specifics about freeezone--they use hubbard tech, they offer the whole bridge, they believe the xenu incident...you have see the same posts...these people are dangerous.

 

[Boldgirl]

Read it all. Read the pro, read the con, read the "fuck the whole thing" bunch. I, personally, believe the Road to Xenu shouldn't be walked. My position can be ambiguous to some, as it's a bit complicated, but it basically boils down to that there are parts that are useful, and worth knowing, and there are parts that are bogus, in my view, and are dangerous to use with others or "one themself". I strongly believe that the Church of Scientology is a danger to individuals, to families, to communities and nations it is allowed to operate within, and should be disbanded and analyzed, as Zinj says, by forensic accountants. I consider that the Freezone/Independents are less dangerous, because they don't all advocate the Road to Xenu, and many are genuinely helpful people who are just trying to be of use to "their fellow man". I also don't think they are a danger to families, communities or any nations, and don't aspire to be.

Ultimately, Hubbard drank from many sources, and those sources are sometimes of value, and sometimes farcical or dangerous.

As ex-scientologists, I think that many here have enough experience with the Church and with the use of scientology to know the difference, or they will learn, if they play with fire. I played with fire. I got very badly burned, but I walked away "intact", and not as badly burned as others. I liken any scientology stuff "above" NED to playing with fire (Wall of Fire?), some walk away, and some become pretty batshit crazy. Same with dropping acid! Some people feel it is enlightening (and it can be), some people find it frightening (and it can be), and others would NEVER take a chance with their minds. Read about it. See if you really want to train yourself to accept the reality of implants that Hubbard laid out, so that you can then run them out in session: it's a waste of time, unless understood as strictly an exercise with no basis in reality, and worse, if you do come to believe it, perhaps you, too, could enjoy the fate of Lisa McPherson! Or maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones who come through the other side with your mind intact, but having wasted a lot of time and energy better spent in a hammock listening to the sea.

Questions of identity are real questions, but CC-OTIII aren't real solutions, IMO. Your mileage may vary. Just don't say you weren't warned.

Good post...this from a HUGE critic of anyone doing FZ.

 

[GreyLensman]

I second that motion.

Different day, same rantings from FZ's-reckless good intentions. ...FZ's applying the same hubbard nonsense to spiritual freedom from....what? still no one has answered that. PPLLEEAASSEEE go advertise elsewhere and please someone get these FZ scientologists off this place...this board exists also I thought to help those sitting on the fence that need to know the truth and then they read about FZ's and just go from cult A to cult B.

It's like trying to comm with amy other SCN.. dont see beyond their own thick filters. So FZ doesnt have an OSA, and an RFP. But you still have the same exact idea as the CofS that you can apply a madmans tech to innocent minds and that you are experts in spiritual freedom and dont need permission to do whatever you want with tech that has hurt,and IS hurting people.

I agree, you culties make me sick. I have seen what this tech can do myself...and it's dangerous, dangerous dangerous and as long as I am breathing will expose this crap for what it is and say it as straight and rudely as I can. I dont want anyone else to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from 2 years later....oh I know--'scn can help me with that-right?'.

WAKE UP FZ'S FOR GODS SAKE!!!!! I am sure you are great great people ... take your glasses off!

Boldie... Sigh...

My mind is no longer innocent. I'm no longer an expert. Certainly not in "spiritual freedom." I am a seeker, though, and as such,

I'll form my own opinions.

I may consider your viewpoint in forming those opinions, I may not.

YOU DON'T GET A SAY IN THAT. NOBODY DOES.

You have an opinion. I can see that. It's, I think, a pretty rabid and unforgiving opinion. Doesn't leave much available except complete and utter agreement. Actually, overall, it's more of a rant than an actual opinion.

Good luck in your road to recovery.