The difference between Scn and Knowledgism
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DartSmohen
Silver Meritorious Patron
Care to expand on this remark?
Mark A. Baker
Hullo Mark,
In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants. What do they have their attention on? Thst is where the present time (real time) charge is. The fact that they can put their attention on it means they can confront it.
You are starting from a known position and you have absolutely no idea where you will end up, except that you will have helped the client blow force, mass and charge along the way.
This is known as processing for the client. Every time they blow some mass and gain a new understanding, they are so spiritually expanded that they can either take a break or see what the next area they have their attention on, and continue accordingly.
The only way to discharge force, mass and charge is in real present time. This is known as processing from the top down.
For example, I would not ask the client what their attention is on until such time as they were exterior. It is the ONLY way to process a client.
This was the way clients were processed in Scientology before 1964, or, before when Hubbard went mad.
Scientology starts from an unknown position and works toward a stated goal or outcome. This is processing from the bottom up.
It does not matter to the Scientology processer what the client REALLY wants to look at, so long as the direction is toward the stated goal.
This is processing for the Org, you are running, essentially, Hubbard's case.
What you are doing is basically creating a false identity for the client. You are not addressing their wants, but the Org's wants.
This is known as implanting.
So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group.
No doubt several readers of this list will attest to having made excellent gains in Scn. No doubt they did, but at what cost?
How many readers were, at one time, dedicated and supportive Scientologists, before they took a look at WHAT IS.
There is rather an easy way for those of you who have been implanted by Scn to unravel it.
Here are the questions; What do you really, really want to be?
What do you really,really want to do?
What do you really, really want to have?
Just ponder these questions, it may take some time for the right answere to come to light, but an honest approach should bring results.
One good way is to make long lists of answers. What happens as you write down your answers is that identities blow off. You will come up with right answer in the end.
So, no more implanting, much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Dart
Wisened One
Crusader
Wow, Dart. Wow.... 
Hullo Mark,
In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants. What do they have their attention on? Thst is where the present time (real time) charge is. The fact that they can put their attention on it means they can confront it.
You are starting from a known position and you have absolutely no idea where you will end up, except that you will have helped the client blow force, mass and charge along the way.
This is known as processing for the client. Every time they blow some mass and gain a new understanding, they are so spiritually expanded that they can either take a break or see what the next area they have their attention on, and continue accordingly.
The only way to discharge force, mass and charge is in real present time. This is known as processing from the top down.
For example, I would not ask the client what their attention is on until such time as they were exterior. It is the ONLY way to process a client.
This was the way clients were processed in Scientology before 1964, or, before when Hubbard went mad.
Scientology starts from an unknown position and works toward a stated goal or outcome. This is processing from the bottom up.
It does not matter to the Scientology processer what the client REALLY wants to look at, so long as the direction is toward the stated goal.
This is processing for the Org, you are running, essentially, Hubbard's case.
What you are doing is basically creating a false identity for the client. You are not addressing their wants, but the Org's wants.
This is known as implanting.
So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group.
No doubt several readers of this list will attest to having made excellent gains in Scn. No doubt they did, but at what cost?
How many readers were, at one time, dedicated and supportive Scientologists, before they took a look at WHAT IS.
There is rather an easy way for those of you who have been implanted by Scn to unravel it.
Here are the questions; What do you really, really want to be?
What do you really,really want to do?
What do you really, really want to have?
Just ponder these questions, it may take some time for the right answere to come to light, but an honest approach should bring results.
One good way is to make long lists of answers. What happens as you write down your answers is that identities blow off. You will come up with right answer in the end.
So, no more implanting, much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Dart
Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
DartSmohen said:
Can I simplify this?. One of those three, the first, is enormously senior to the other two, so much so that the other two scarcely matter by comparison.
What we really want is to be what we deep down know we are but have forgotten - God, the static, theta, the All, Brahma etc. Once we are that and know it, the rest will take care of itself. In fact it won't bother you at all; you'll be too happy to give a s**t about it.
" But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. "
(Matthew 6:33, New King James version).
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Hullo Mark,
In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants. What do they have their attention on? Thst is where the present time (real time) charge is. The fact that they can put their attention on it means they can confront it.
You are starting from a known position and you have absolutely no idea where you will end up, except that you will have helped the client blow force, mass and charge along the way.
This is known as processing for the client. Every time they blow some mass and gain a new understanding, they are so spiritually expanded that they can either take a break or see what the next area they have their attention on, and continue accordingly.
The only way to discharge force, mass and charge is in real present time. This is known as processing from the top down.
For example, I would not ask the client what their attention is on until such time as they were exterior. It is the ONLY way to process a client.
This was the way clients were processed in Scientology before 1964, or, before when Hubbard went mad.
Scientology starts from an unknown position and works toward a stated goal or outcome. This is processing from the bottom up.
It does not matter to the Scientology processer what the client REALLY wants to look at, so long as the direction is toward the stated goal.
This is processing for the Org, you are running, essentially, Hubbard's case.
What you are doing is basically creating a false identity for the client. You are not addressing their wants, but the Org's wants.
This is known as implanting.
So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group.
No doubt several readers of this list will attest to having made excellent gains in Scn. No doubt they did, but at what cost?
How many readers were, at one time, dedicated and supportive Scientologists, before they took a look at WHAT IS.
There is rather an easy way for those of you who have been implanted by Scn to unravel it.
Here are the questions; What do you really, really want to be?
What do you really,really want to do?
What do you really, really want to have?
Just ponder these questions, it may take some time for the right answere to come to light, but an honest approach should bring results.
One good way is to make long lists of answers. What happens as you write down your answers is that identities blow off. You will come up with right answer in the end.
So, no more implanting, much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Dart
Good statement. One quibble occurs to me right off the bat.
Objectives. I don't see them as as fitting your definition of "top down" processing. They strike me more as "bottom up" as most individuals seem to be oblivious to their purpose or function. They can, however, produce truly remarkable results for people who have been run on them. Objective processing can bring a person up to "present time" in a way they never imagined as possible. I know from previous statements that Alan is a fan of objectives also, however they strike me as "bottom up", serving to "undercut" the case of a pc.
A second issue lies in the areas associated with responsibility for immoral or unethical actions (e.g. sins, overts, etc.) or, also, service facsimiles. Now, without question both of these areas are routinely audited in an abusive fashion by Co$ personnel and such abusive auditing can be extraordinarily destructive. Nevertheless, when actually audited in a non-evaluative fashion, such material properly confronted can literally transform an individual and eliminate tremendous self-imposed barriers from the pc. Again this sort of targeting appears to be an effective "undercut" to case resolution.
Your comments?
By the by, I'm one of the "did the lower bridge in the Co$ and got tremendous gains from it" types, although, admittedly that was at a good mission with excellent tech staff and in the '80-81 time frame. The only costs I regret are those that other scientologists have incurred as a result of violating their own integrity so as to remain "loyal" to LRH or the Co$.
Mark A. Baker
Cat's Squirrel
Gold Meritorious Patron
Objectives
I like objectives too, Mark; I cognited whilst (re)doing mine that I'd been a soldier in a past life and that was the reason I found it hard to accept authority or take orders.
There used to be a tech group, somewhere in America I think, that took mainly very rough cases and did nothing else with them but objectives; they got great results apparently from a group who started out with pretty low expectations.
I don't know how they work and I'm not sure anyone else does, but they seem to get people into present time and operating free of / exterior to the bank.
I like objectives too, Mark; I cognited whilst (re)doing mine that I'd been a soldier in a past life and that was the reason I found it hard to accept authority or take orders.
There used to be a tech group, somewhere in America I think, that took mainly very rough cases and did nothing else with them but objectives; they got great results apparently from a group who started out with pretty low expectations.
I don't know how they work and I'm not sure anyone else does, but they seem to get people into present time and operating free of / exterior to the bank.
Terril park
Sponsor
Hullo Mark,
In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants. What do they have their attention on? Thst is where the present time (real time) charge is. The fact that they can put their attention on it means they can confront it.
You are starting from a known position and you have absolutely no idea where you will end up, except that you will have helped the client blow force, mass and charge along the way.
This is known as processing for the client. Every time they blow some mass and gain a new understanding, they are so spiritually expanded that they can either take a break or see what the next area they have their attention on, and continue accordingly.
The only way to discharge force, mass and charge is in real present time. This is known as processing from the top down.
For example, I would not ask the client what their attention is on until such time as they were exterior. It is the ONLY way to process a client.
This was the way clients were processed in Scientology before 1964, or, before when Hubbard went mad.
Scientology starts from an unknown position and works toward a stated goal or outcome. This is processing from the bottom up.
It does not matter to the Scientology processer what the client REALLY wants to look at, so long as the direction is toward the stated goal.
This is processing for the Org, you are running, essentially, Hubbard's case.
What you are doing is basically creating a false identity for the client. You are not addressing their wants, but the Org's wants.
This is known as implanting.
So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group.
No doubt several readers of this list will attest to having made excellent gains in Scn. No doubt they did, but at what cost?
How many readers were, at one time, dedicated and supportive Scientologists, before they took a look at WHAT IS.
There is rather an easy way for those of you who have been implanted by Scn to unravel it.
Here are the questions; What do you really, really want to be?
What do you really,really want to do?
What do you really, really want to have?
Just ponder these questions, it may take some time for the right answere to come to light, but an honest approach should bring results.
One good way is to make long lists of answers. What happens as you write down your answers is that identities blow off. You will come up with right answer in the end.
So, no more implanting, much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Dart
I very much appreciate the " wants handled" or if you will life repair
statements you make.
Ser facs are not usually something a being is aware of as a problem. How
is that handled in knowledgism?
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
Hullo Mark,
In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants. What do they have their attention on? Thst is where the present time (real time) charge is. The fact that they can put their attention on it means they can confront it.
You are starting from a known position and you have absolutely no idea where you will end up, except that you will have helped the client blow force, mass and charge along the way.
This is known as processing for the client. Every time they blow some mass and gain a new understanding, they are so spiritually expanded that they can either take a break or see what the next area they have their attention on, and continue accordingly.
The only way to discharge force, mass and charge is in real present time. This is known as processing from the top down.
For example, I would not ask the client what their attention is on until such time as they were exterior. It is the ONLY way to process a client.
This was the way clients were processed in Scientology before 1964, or, before when Hubbard went mad.
Scientology starts from an unknown position and works toward a stated goal or outcome. This is processing from the bottom up.
It does not matter to the Scientology processer what the client REALLY wants to look at, so long as the direction is toward the stated goal.
This is processing for the Org, you are running, essentially, Hubbard's case.
What you are doing is basically creating a false identity for the client. You are not addressing their wants, but the Org's wants.
This is known as implanting.
So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group.
No doubt several readers of this list will attest to having made excellent gains in Scn. No doubt they did, but at what cost?
How many readers were, at one time, dedicated and supportive Scientologists, before they took a look at WHAT IS.
There is rather an easy way for those of you who have been implanted by Scn to unravel it.
Here are the questions; What do you really, really want to be?
What do you really,really want to do?
What do you really, really want to have?
Just ponder these questions, it may take some time for the right answere to come to light, but an honest approach should bring results.
One good way is to make long lists of answers. What happens as you write down your answers is that identities blow off. You will come up with right answer in the end.
So, no more implanting, much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Dart
So Knowledgism gives us freedom from implanting and much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Do you go earlier/similar on the time track in Knowledgism auditing?
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
The problem with Scn auditing is that it does not always address what the person would like to address. Too much emphasis on one's next step on the bridge. Too many auditors out there telling pcs "you're not the CS" then they wonder why they've got an apparent floating needle and bad indicators. (duh!) If Knowledgism takes a different approach, then that's awesome. But Buddhism's cheaper.
alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
Hullo Mark,
In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants. What do they have their attention on? Thst is where the present time (real time) charge is. The fact that they can put their attention on it means they can confront it.
You are starting from a known position and you have absolutely no idea where you will end up, except that you will have helped the client blow force, mass and charge along the way.
This is known as processing for the client. Every time they blow some mass and gain a new understanding, they are so spiritually expanded that they can either take a break or see what the next area they have their attention on, and continue accordingly.
The only way to discharge force, mass and charge is in real present time. This is known as processing from the top down.
For example, I would not ask the client what their attention is on until such time as they were exterior. It is the ONLY way to process a client.
This was the way clients were processed in Scientology before 1964, or, before when Hubbard went mad.
Scientology starts from an unknown position and works toward a stated goal or outcome. This is processing from the bottom up.
It does not matter to the Scientology processer what the client REALLY wants to look at, so long as the direction is toward the stated goal.
This is processing for the Org, you are running, essentially, Hubbard's case.
What you are doing is basically creating a false identity for the client. You are not addressing their wants, but the Org's wants.
This is known as implanting.
So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group.
No doubt several readers of this list will attest to having made excellent gains in Scn. No doubt they did, but at what cost?
How many readers were, at one time, dedicated and supportive Scientologists, before they took a look at WHAT IS.
There is rather an easy way for those of you who have been implanted by Scn to unravel it.
Here are the questions; What do you really, really want to be?
What do you really,really want to do?
What do you really, really want to have?
Just ponder these questions, it may take some time for the right answere to come to light, but an honest approach should bring results.
One good way is to make long lists of answers. What happens as you write down your answers is that identities blow off. You will come up with right answer in the end.
So, no more implanting, much more recovery of freedom and abilities.
Dart
A couple of questions....
You say "In Knowledgism the direction is toward the client's wants." How is it known that the clients wants are not from their aberations? I know this is a scientology concept, but I think you can understand. What makes a want not simply the expression of the clients case?
And...."So there you have it. Scientology processing is designed to implant the person, to mould them into a dedicated and supportive member of the group."
I see the "spiritual teammate" concept to be similar, in that it takes newly liberated entities and before they have much experience in that freedom, encourages them to "team up". Is it only that you are of good will and the scientologist not?
DartSmohen
Silver Meritorious Patron
Hullo Alex,
Easy to answer.
First, in processing a person toward their wants you take up whatever is there in real time as it is the force/mass/charge that is sitting there now to be handled.
What is an abberation?
It is a concept that has been distorted by force/mass/charge. As you discharge what is sitting there, the concept returns to it's original theme.
So, you see, it does not matter what comes up, you handle the force/mass/charge in real time and thye person recovers reaslisations etc (cognitions, to you scilons).
As for one's apiritual team mates, I am afraid you do have the wrong idea. No one is trying to "liberate" or "recover" them, they are already free to come and go as they please.
As you learn new skills and practice using them, so your team mates also gain knowledge.
As you gain new awarenesses and realisations, don't tell me that some of your spiritual team are not going to go " oh yeah, thats true".
No one is trying to "recruit" them into their team. They are there because they are there. It is their choice.
Hubbard's paranoia about beings in and around your space derives directly from his cocaine addiction. The tragedy is that so many well meaning followers have slavishly bought into this abberation. Forcing a person or being out of a space they want to be in is a very engramic experience. It causes huge upsets.
When you consider the high number of followers who have committed suicide, had strokes, heart attacks and deaths whilst on this level of insanity, you have to wonder why it continues.
Clearly there is the financial element the cult gathers in, together with the Teutonic was the cult coltrols it's adherents.
Hubbard was quite insane when he was developing this stuff. I know. I saw it, along with others. I was there.
Dart
MostlyLurker
Patron Meritorious
I hope in Kn they don't have their teammates sing a billion year contract, threaten them of oblivion and damnation and disconnection from loved ones and bill them with a freeloader bill shall they leave.
I say that because it is just plain silly to me to see you going on complaining about "teammates freedom in Kn" (without a personal knowledge), yet support a 'church' that operates the Sea Org, and lie to its people.
It does not make sense to me, without considering an hidden agenda of you.
alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
Considering I have called for the Sea Org to be disbanded....
What would be my hidden agenda....I know I must have one, I often feel like there are things I should remember, things I should have confronted at the time but didnt.....Sure I have a hidden agenda....
Sadly hidden from me too.
Your 'hidden agenda' is to muddy the waters, obfuscate and minimalize the evil of Scientology by distracting from the 'source' to the 'symptoms' in the hope of confusing the issues.
Hope that clarifies things for you
Zinj
DartSmohen
Silver Meritorious Patron
Hullo Mostly Lurker.
You will be pleased to know that there are NO contracts of any kind in KN. There are no freeloader bills either. People come and go as they please. They come for training and some for processing. Our staff and public are treated as adults.
Courses are run during set hours. If you want to be there at the start, that is fine. If you want to come in later on, that is fine, so long as you don't interrupt others. If you want to get yourself a coffee or cold drink, that is fine. If you want to smoke, then do so outside.
All progress is at the individual's own pace. There is NO race to see who finishes first. The whole idea is that you learn what you are studying so that when you go back into your own environment you will be able to apply what you have learned, thereby bringing about an upgrade in the quality of your life and success in your activities.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
Dart
degraded being
Sponsor
How do clients define "spiritual team mates". I assume the term means different things to different people and some may not be interested in definitions, but some probably are interested. How does the perception of and definition of these "entities" from others, feed into the perception and definition of these entities by individual clients. (The co-creation of the belief).
Are these entities "spiritual baggage" brought from Scientology upper levels, which having been created by clients, with the help of the cult hang around like a bad smell from the "auditing room" until they are pronounced to be smelling like lavender in the Kn zone?
If a Kn client has no history in scientology at all, do they address these "entities" at some time?
Giving them the name "spiritual team mates" makes them seem like rather groovy little things to have around. This make me wonder if the creators and deliverers of KN, Alan and Co have so much affection for them that they want to share with others how nice these littles buddies are, .....with "infectious" enthusiasm.
Are these entities "spiritual baggage" brought from Scientology upper levels, which having been created by clients, with the help of the cult hang around like a bad smell from the "auditing room" until they are pronounced to be smelling like lavender in the Kn zone?
If a Kn client has no history in scientology at all, do they address these "entities" at some time?
Giving them the name "spiritual team mates" makes them seem like rather groovy little things to have around. This make me wonder if the creators and deliverers of KN, Alan and Co have so much affection for them that they want to share with others how nice these littles buddies are, .....with "infectious" enthusiasm.
nw2394
Silver Meritorious Patron
IMO, the "infectious enthusiasm" is perhaps a little over done - but - no - I don't think it is just "baggage" brought over from Scn.
Certainly regarding all entities as virtually dead spiritual garbage to be erased and be rid of, which is what many will conclude from reading Scn material, is going overboard in the other direction.
Nick
alex
Gold Meritorious Patron
Nick, I think you are being a little over enthusiastic in characterizing scientology's practices and beliefs on entities as "virtually dead spiritual garbage to be erased and rid of".
The entities are awoken and audited, even to the extent of grades and ex dn if needed.
That is not what you do with garbage.
RogerB
Crusader
HOWZIS?
Yours above is a fair and entertainingly put question. It is a lucid and correct question to be answered.
I case advise two folks who were never in Scn. One you know of, my sweetie, Virginia.
The correct way to help folks move their "case" forward is to allow it to open up as and how it opens up and becomes available for the individual. That is: as they become aware of the various items and aspects of it.
On the subject of spiritual teammates, per your question, this is what developed in the two case I am referring to here.
Obviously, some folks have heard of the issue of "entities" or spirit guides et al, from other sources before any processing, and that can play a role in things. Some even learn, as a result of reading Kn material, that this is a subject area we have found some relative truths that pertain long before they experience the truth of it for themselves.
Others have no clue on the subject till it gets in their way in session.
Case in point. One person I advise had been processing along quite happily, making lovely gains all along the way in sessions and in life, and suddenly, one session it bogs with an unresolving "mental mass" and "somatic."
Simple handling (though an alert, perceptive processor who is also himself advanced on this case issue can actually see what's going on). One checks: "Is it a spiritual teammate's or spiritual team's?"
If yes, it's time for a little hatting/education if needed, and the use of the spiritual teammate handling R/D to resolve the case issue that has now come to the surface such that the client is aware of it. The R/D restores harmony, knowledge and volition in the area.
This did happen for one of my folks . . . he was like WOW! Totally amazed when the truth of it became his from experience.
Virginia had a slightly different route. She had had the educational introduction to the subject long before she had to handle any "entities." And it was a simple issue to have her check "if" when there was an area of case stalling. And she did it all solo . . . . I've only given her about three session: one to help her do an L&N, one a long objectives session, and another to do a BPC assessment to give her her first taste and reality on such.
One should not get too hung up in the "what are they gambit."
Like, a husband and wife are a team, aren't they? Free to come and go or relate. Hell, some husbands and wives, or lovers, have compulsive love/hate relationships and are stuck together; and some have absolute bliss and joy together and choose to stay connected with full knowing volition.
Your old spiritual connections fit the same bill
Rog
DB,
Yours above is a fair and entertainingly put question. It is a lucid and correct question to be answered.
I case advise two folks who were never in Scn. One you know of, my sweetie, Virginia.
The correct way to help folks move their "case" forward is to allow it to open up as and how it opens up and becomes available for the individual. That is: as they become aware of the various items and aspects of it.
On the subject of spiritual teammates, per your question, this is what developed in the two case I am referring to here.
Obviously, some folks have heard of the issue of "entities" or spirit guides et al, from other sources before any processing, and that can play a role in things. Some even learn, as a result of reading Kn material, that this is a subject area we have found some relative truths that pertain long before they experience the truth of it for themselves.
Others have no clue on the subject till it gets in their way in session.
Case in point. One person I advise had been processing along quite happily, making lovely gains all along the way in sessions and in life, and suddenly, one session it bogs with an unresolving "mental mass" and "somatic."
Simple handling (though an alert, perceptive processor who is also himself advanced on this case issue can actually see what's going on). One checks: "Is it a spiritual teammate's or spiritual team's?"
If yes, it's time for a little hatting/education if needed, and the use of the spiritual teammate handling R/D to resolve the case issue that has now come to the surface such that the client is aware of it. The R/D restores harmony, knowledge and volition in the area.
This did happen for one of my folks . . . he was like WOW! Totally amazed when the truth of it became his from experience.
Virginia had a slightly different route. She had had the educational introduction to the subject long before she had to handle any "entities." And it was a simple issue to have her check "if" when there was an area of case stalling. And she did it all solo . . . . I've only given her about three session: one to help her do an L&N, one a long objectives session, and another to do a BPC assessment to give her her first taste and reality on such.
One should not get too hung up in the "what are they gambit."
Like, a husband and wife are a team, aren't they? Free to come and go or relate. Hell, some husbands and wives, or lovers, have compulsive love/hate relationships and are stuck together; and some have absolute bliss and joy together and choose to stay connected with full knowing volition.
Your old spiritual connections fit the same bill
Rog
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