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The Edge interview with high level scientology defector (Bill Franks)

Gadfly

Crusader
And Why would "Ron" say to Hana Eltringham (Now Whitfield) who was Deputy Commodore at the time:

"It's all just hypnosis"


While walking through a passageway?

As I see it, Hubbard DOES state things as they are, very often, but unknown to the suckers who follow him and his system, he OFTEN USES THOSE AGAINST THE PERSON TO MANIPULATE AND TRAP THEM.

As an example, and there are MANY, Hubbard correctly and very well discusses "fixed ideas". He explains how they are bad, how they interfere with learning, and how a person with them believes that he or she already knows it all. Hubbard well explains that it is good to spot and get rid of "fixed ideas". But then, Hubbard slyly and adeptly gets his followers to accept and adopt a whole new set of fixed ideas! :yes:

I think sometimes Hubbard just slipped, and really said what he thought, without any concern for the big manipulation aspect. When he said, "it's all just hypnosis" to Hana, he may have let his guard down (which he rarely did), and he was stating the truth as he viewed it. But, maybe not.

Now, there ARE various angles to that statement.

First, from a viewpoint of Hinduism and "maya", it is ALL an "illusion", and in a certain sense, we are each hypnotised by the "fixed reality", and especially by our OWN thoughts and considerations. From that view, it IS "all hypnosis".

Second, modern visualization and affirmation techniques, that actually derive from eastern practices and ideas, are simply, a form of intentional self-hypnosis. The acceptance of ANY set of considerations and agreements results in the perception and experience of a specific "version" of "reality". Many New Age practices are based on THAT idea (even if they don't know it or state it in exactly those terms).

So, again Hubbard stated something that DOES contain "truth", but in the end, he used it AGAINST YOU, and he did not convey the data in a way that empowered you. As I see it, he knew exactly what he was doing - and it was NOT so much to help you (other than as a pretense) as it was to "help Ron".

I first read about fixed ideas through my involvement with Scientology. I liked the data, but didn't know WHERE Hubbard had borrowed the idea from. Hubbard packaged a large assortment of different and unrelated ideas as "Scientology". At first I thought that I liked "Scientology", because I appreciated the data on "fixed ideas". It wasn't "Scientology" that I liked, but this ONE isolated idea, an idea that Hubbard INCORRECTLY LABELED AS BEING "Scientology". The notion of Scientology as an "integrated body of knowledge" is a PR gimmick. "Scientology" is largely a "mock-up" that Hubbard foisted on the world. And, it exists for any person to the degree that you think that it does.
 
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Magoo

Gold Meritorious Patron
Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?

Standard Security Check of 1961 (second one down in the link), and several other Security Checks:

http://www.religio.de/books/kaufman/isd-5i.htm

A small sampling of some of the 1961 Sec Check sex related questions:

Have you ever had anything to do with pornography?

Have you ever practiced homosexuality?

Have you ever exhibited yourself sexually?

Have you ever practiced sodomy?

Have you ever made a practice of having sex with a member of your own sex?

Do you collect sexual objects?

Have you ever practiced masturbation?


l_ron_hubbard_dianetics.jpg

QUACK!!!!

Thank GOD and the Net I (and so many others) are out of that
mental institution disguised (and not very well) as "religion".

WTFU to anyone still "in". Come on, man, PLEASE ***look*** at both sides, and ask yourself: Why can't C of $ say that?

Is this HONESTLY The group you thought you joined way back when?

This is IT? :confused2:

:no: Freedom does NOT reign there. Suppression does.

Sorry to tell ya, but that is a fact.

Tory/Magoo

PS: The Very FACT That IF you listen to any of us, someone will be there to "handle you" proves my point.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
Re: Bill Franks says the Cof$ murdered a British Member of Parliament.

Personally, I don’t think this very likely.

As I said, the only MP I can find that was definitely murdered in the year indicated (1979) is Airey Neave. It is pretty certain that the INLA were responsible.

Then, there was Walter Travers Scott-Elliot who was murdered in 1977.

I’d like to see some hard evidence.

Of course, it is possible that the GO just claimed to have done this to keep recalcitrant members in line.

I suppose it is possible that it wasn’t actually an MP, but some government civil servant?

Axiom142

I actually don't think it is credible at all.

In 1979 to have been involved in something like this (and I agree with you Ax, Neave was most definitely assassinated by independent Irish republican dissidents) the GO would have had to have been certifiable. Given the ongoing war against the provos, the draconian steps that British counter intelligence was taking, including infiltrating the provos, false flag recruitment, and a lot of stuff we are never likely to hear about , leaving some document around with the words "murder" and "MP" in it strikes me as ludicrous. Even if it were someone merely speculating, it would be incredibly dangerous.

Does that mean BF is telling porkies? probably not given the fact that he was probably wading through paperwork by the yard it may have been speculation about what someone else was doing. Which would make more sense.

anyway - FWIW
 

Moosejewels

Patron Meritorious
This week Tom Smith interviews a high level defector from the
scientology organization. Among the topics discussed are Fair Game
orders issued against elected officials of a major Western government.
Take a visit to scientology's version of the Twilight Zone. Listen to
The Edge this Friday, 8 June 2012 and Sunday 10 June 2012 from 2 - 3
p.m. eastern U.S. time on http://www.hawkradio.com or
http://theedgewithtomsmith.com As always, a podcast will be available
after broadcast.

Very interesting interview.
Thanks for posting.

:thumbsup:
 

Anony

New Member
I just listened to it, and the part about the murder of a MP is only a brief mention, and is vague. It's unknown whether it was a murder disguised as an accident - which would be more Scientological than an upfront guns-blasting homicide.

I was pretty intrigued by the MP killing as well..

I haven't had time to read the entire thread but I can find three MPs dying of accidents during this timeframe:

Sir Dingle Foot: 1905-1978 (choked on chicken bone in sandwich)
Mr Thomas Henry Swain: 1911-1979 (road accident)
Mr Thomas McMillan: 1919-1980 (fall from bus)


I guess murdering someone by making them choke on a chicken bone or fall from a bus would be kind of difficult ( but you never know with scientology! ). :/

But what about Thomas Henry Swain?
 

whoisxenu

Patron with Honors
I suspect the MP he's referring to is --
[h=1]Airey Neave[/h]Neave was assassinated in 1979 in a car-bomb attack at the House of Commons

The IRA claimed credit. Could be Franks just put assassinated and MP and 1979 together and assumed it was a Scientology operation on the sly.
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
On the other Thread recently started re: Bill's interview I Posted the following...Note the PS at the end in Bold.

Every Ex, Critic or questioning Still In needs to listen to this carefully. :yes:

I hadn't heard this interview before...too bad the interviewer didn't have another hour to pursue some of the stuff Bill brought up towards the end.

I knew Bill Franks. I was not Staff in Orgs or Units he ran but our paths crossed off and on from the latter '60's to not long before he was ousted. Bill is not only 110% credible, he also is highly intelligent, educated, knew Green and Red "Tech" inside out, and was, off and on, as deep in the "Inner Circle" as a SO member was allowed.

Some of the stuff he talks about I was on the periphery of and many of the Folks he discusses (including GO Heavies like Mulligan) I either knew in passing or had interacted with at one time or another. I knew Bill was sincere when he wanted to instigate and lead a "Reformation". IMHO Franks, Mayo, the Major Mission Holders and others of that Era were the last hope there will ever be that something worthwhile and decent will ever be made out of the Cof$ and, IMHO, there was never before, and never will be again, Folks as as qualified, capable, trustworthy or fundamentally decent to "fix" the Cof$ as those Folks.

EDIT: Also, IMHO, El Ron had pushed things to the edge of the envelope and the "Time" has passed in the life cycle of the Cof$ wherein it can be reformed without a fatal internal meltdown, internecine warfare and a blizzard of external assaults and feeding frenzy.

What personally struck me was not what Bill said--I pretty much already knew about all of it--it was how he said it in his articulate, straightforward and perceptive manner. But, what struck me the most, was the overall timbre and enunciation (primarily the "S" sounds)...I had never heard Bill's voice without the undercurrent of heavy stress and exhaustion he, and so many of Us, lived with and without the severe dental problems that he suffered, as did many of Us.

Face:)

PS: The IRA traded "favors" for stuff they needed...like funds, arms and intell.

I don't know how I managed to miss this clip and thread the first time around. :confused2:

When I was in the "Inner Circle" I got to be Buds with some of the GO B1 Super Spooks. One of them once said to me that the GO was "capable" of having someone "eliminated".

Face:)
 

Anony

New Member
Oops, sorry I didn't notice the other thread!

anyway, I found something interesting regarding the Airey Neave case.
This is from the telegraph in 2009 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-too-sensitive-for-release-remain-secret.html)

"Government files from 1979 regarded as too sensitive to release under the “30 year rule” were kept secret. "

"withheld were papers on the assassination in March 1979 of Airey Neave, the Conservative MP and adviser to Lady Thatcher.
Mr Neave was killed when a bomb exploded under his car as it left the Palace of Westminster car park. The attack was claimed by the Irish National Liberation Army. "


I really can't find any reason why Scientology would want him assassinated though..
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Have you ever had any unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?

Standard Security Check of 1961 (second one down in the link), and several other Security Checks:

http://www.religio.de/books/kaufman/isd-5i.htm

A small sampling of some of the 1961 Sec Check sex related questions:

Have you ever had anything to do with pornography?

Have you ever practiced homosexuality?

Have you ever exhibited yourself sexually?

Have you ever practiced sodomy?

Have you ever made a practice of having sex with a member of your own sex?

Do you collect sexual objects?

Have you ever practiced masturbation?


l_ron_hubbard_dianetics.jpg


Shit, I would have been in big trouble. Not only have I done all of these, I've enjoyed them - a few at the same time! :happydance:
 
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Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Bill Franks says the Cof$ murdered a British Member of Parliament.

I agree. I can't say for sure anyone was killed but I don't find it the least bit surprising.

It's been a while since I was in the SO, but I do remember that there were no limits to what you were expected to do. And that was on the bottom of the food chain. I can just imagine what it must have been like for GO personnel when the orders were supposedly coming directly from Hubbard.

I mean, why wouldn't he order people to be killed? It was set up so that he would never take the fall for anything his minions did. He was a paranoid nutcase who even made public declarations that "destroying suppressives" was "ethical". It pretty much stands to reason that this is exactly what he would do.

I think, as crazy as some of this sounds, that we may never know the half of it.

I agree, it seems so obvious that this is the direction he was going in his paranoid schizophrenia, murder seems the obvious conclusion. When you think about "Fair Game" and the use of the word destroyed, the text in Keeping Scientology Working and the stuff about "We'd rather have you dead than incapable" (I think that's the quote, someone feel free to correct me). The could be translated to say, "We'd rather have you do dead then out of the church". The violence in Auditing Process "R2-45"....

From Wikipedia:

However, critics of Scientology have pointed out that Hubbard also used it in apparently non-humorous contexts. On March 6, 1968, Hubbard issued an internal memo titled "RACKET EXPOSED," in which he denounced twelve people (Peter Goodwin, Jim Stathis, Peter Knight, Mrs. Knight, Nora Goodwin, Ron Frost, Margaret Frost, Nina Collingwood, Freda Gaiman, Frank Manley, Mary Ann Taylor, and George Wateridge) as "Enemies of mankind, the planet and all life," and ordered that "Any Sea Org member contacting any of them is to use Auditing Process R2-45."[SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP] Former Scientologist Bent Corydon wrote that in late 1967 at Saint Hill, he personally received a copy of an order naming four former Scientologists as enemies and "fair game" and ordering any Sea Org member who encountered them to use R2-45.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I suspect the MP he's referring to is --
[h=1]Airey Neave[/h]Neave was assassinated in 1979 in a car-bomb attack at the House of Commons

The IRA claimed credit. Could be Franks just put assassinated and MP and 1979 together and assumed it was a Scientology operation on the sly.

it was the INLA that claimed credit - not the PIRA.

I actually posted this before I finished it - I was getting off to bed and one of the cats had ensconced himself in my computer chair - what's a person to do?

I know Hubbard talked tough - but he was not tough. He was a bully. He particularly liked to bully women. He was not a man of courage not even street courage - at every trial he cut and ran and he allowed his wife to go jail on his behalf and then disowned her.

I can tell you that Irish republican extremists of all stripes are not stupid enough to get into bed with someone as unreliable as Hubbard.

Another thing - there is no evidence that I know of that has the IRA performing assassinations in some sort of quid pro quo arrangement. For somebody to assert that would mean that they do not have much of an idea of the mindset of members of the PIRA or the rest of the Republican extremist movement.

Personally I think it was just one more example of Hubbard telling porkies.
 
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FoTi

Crusader
I wonder if there are any bodies buried at St Hill or Gold.....or perhaps at any of the vaults located here and there around the U.S. :unsure:

This is very interesting that the O/W tech was used to introvert, control, manipulate, trap and drive a person crazy. I never looked at it this way. I always thought it was supposed to help a being to recover from things that they had done that they felt guilty about.....to relieve the burden of guilt and free the being from past transgressions. No wonder it was so confusing sometimes. What a mind fuck! :grouch:
 

Victoria

Patron Meritorious
Mike Rinder calls bullshit on the dead MP story in the comments section on his blog today.
And also wonders why David Mayo hasn't verified the ARCX's cause blows memo.

I have no way of knowing one way or another.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
David Mayo is under a court-ordered gag order. A real strict, tight one.

He can't talk tek or even about his history with Scn. Mike Rinder should be well aware of that. David has explained it to us here at ESMB and probably elsewhere.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
it was the INLA that claimed credit - not the PIRA.

I actually posted this before I finished it - I was getting off to bed and one of the cats had ensconced himself in my computer chair - what's a person to do?

I know Hubbard talked tough - but he was not tough. He was a bully. He particularly liked to bully women. He was not a man of courage not even street courage - at every trial he cut and ran and he allowed his wife to go jail on his behalf and then disowned her.

I can tell you that Irish republican extremists of all stripes are not stupid enough to get into bed with someone as unreliable as Hubbard.

Another thing - there is no evidence that I know of that has the IRA performing assassinations in some sort of quid pro quo arrangement. For somebody to assert that would mean that they do not have much of an idea of the mindset of members of the PIRA or the rest of the Republican extremist movement.

Personally I think it was just one more example of Hubbard telling porkies.

Agreed, I think it's very unlikely to be true.

If LRH had come to face with a real live PIRA / INLA hardman I think he'd have run a mile, and there is next to no chance that they would have taken him seriously as someone to deal with.

Don't forget, those people dealt with Americans all the time (because a lot of their funding came from the US) and by the very nature of what they did, their antenna concerning whom they could trust and whom they couldn't would be very highly developed (because if they got it wrong they'd be facing a long jail sentence). So the odds against them dealing with LRH or anyone else from Scientology and negotiating on a hit at all, never mind of a British member of parliament, would surely be long ones.
 
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Churchill

Gold Meritorious Patron
David Mayo is under a court-ordered gag order. A real strict, tight one.

He can't talk tek or even about his history with Scn. Mike Rinder should be well aware of that. David has explained it to us here at ESMB and probably elsewhere.

Sheila,

I can't believe that I didn't know that Mayo is under a gag order.

Gag orders and non-disclosure agreements are a key tool that Scientology (communication is the universal solvent) uses to stifle speech and impose censorship of dissenting opinions and facts surrounding criminal behavior.

Debbie Cook, Nazanin Boniadi, David Mayo, Katie Holmes, to name just a few.

There are many, many others.
 
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