The ESMB Unpopular Opinions Thread

[Alanzo]

I did. You stated that a majority of children do not follow their parents into Scientology.

Therefore, those that chose to remain as adults, do so by their own power of choice.

I wrote it up using me own words so you can check my superior level of understanding.

Those children who do go on course at their Scientology parents orders do not have the power to say no. Plenty of these children do say no, though, and lots succeed in not going.

But those children of Scientologists who remain as Scientologists into their adult lives do so on their own power of choice.

Don't believe me, [email protected]. As a second gen himself, he has said repeatedly that very few children actually follow their parents into scientology - by a very significant minority. And those who go on to the Sea Org are also a minority.

The smaller the minority of children who follow their parents into scientology, the more the power of choice is a factor in making a 2nd gen.

If 100% of scientology children followed their parents into Scientology, then it would be clear that the power of choice is NOT a factor.

But if less than 20% follow their parents in a become adult scientologists?

That means 80% CHOSE not to become Scientologists.

That proves that most 2nd gens have a power of choice over whether they become scientologists or not.

 

[PirateAndBum]

I'm glad you brought this up.

What is the suicide rate of Scientologists? Like suicides per 1000 Scientologists per year?

How does that suicide rate compare to the annual suicide rate of the mainstream society?

If your point is that even 1 scientology suicide proves scientology doesn't work, then okay.

But the more important point is to compare the Scientology suicide rate to the objective benchmark of overall suicides in the mainstream society. Only when you do that and see if Scientology suicides are higher, or lower, can you really make a valid point either way.

Tony Ortega NEVER does this. And neither does any other anti-Scientologist I've seen who discusses Scientology suicides.

You know that the stats on that are not readily available. There have been threads discussing suicides, but there are no official stats. That's the last thing you would be able to get a stat on from the co$! You do have stories of people going crazy while on OT III for instance. OT VIII's that have committed suicide. These things are NOT supposed to happen - they are contrary to scientology indoctrination. Per LRH, scientologists are THE EXPERTS on the human mind, so pointing out the evidence of that lie is useful.

I wouldn't say that even 1 is proof. I'm sure that a fair number of the suicides never had any auditing to try to assist them. So to say those were 'tech' failures would be unfair. However the doctrine of the evil psychs resulting in a refusal of getting mental health treatment is a valid criticism. This factor alone is something to be concerned about, just as people think JW's are wrong-headed for refusing blood transfusions.

 

[Bill]

When I need to calm down I do OT TR 0. It works but I usually fall asleep, just like I did in Scn

My second favorite study "tech", when I was in the S.O. was: Pick a chair where I faced the wall, put on some LRH lecture (back in the reel-to-reel days), turn the volume to "0" and take a nap. Never got caught. Off to study ...

 

[Alanzo]

Does that also apply to the children who were forced into the Sea Org because their parents were to afraid to say no to the "church"?

Does that also apply to the memebers of the Sea Org?

Does that also apply to the people who were sent to the RPF?

Are you honestly saying that none of these were being brainwashed - witch resulted in a diminished power of choice?

I am saying that your own power of choice - that which is inside you to decide to act in your own self-interests OR NOT, is never diminished by any "brainwashing technique." Scientology or otherwise.

This is what brainwashing is supposed to do, isn't it? Diminish or eradicate your own ability to choose or decide things in your own self-interests?

Yeah.

That never goes away.

The proof is when you finally DO decide to leave. If you were brainwashed, and brainwashing worked as advertised, you would never leave.

The power of choice is a very interesting thing to think about with regard to "cults". Much more productive than "I WAS BRAINWASHED!"

 

[He-man]

Those children who do go on course at their Scientology parents orders do not have the power to say no. Plenty of these children do say no, though, and lots succeed in not going.

But those children of Scientologists who remain as Scientologists into their adult lives do so on their own power of choice.

Don't believe me, [email protected]. As a second gen himself, he has said repeatedly that very few children actually follow their parents into scientology - by a very significant minority. And those who go on to the Sea Org are also a minority.

The smaller the minority of children who follow their parents into scientology, the more the power of choice is a factor in making a 2nd gen.

If 100% of scientology children followed their parents into Scientology, then it would be clear that the power of choice is NOT a factor.

But if less than 20% follow their parents in a become adult scientologists?

That means 80% CHOSE not to become Scientologists.

That proves that most 2nd gens have a power of choice over whether they become scientologists or not.

Go become a sociologist, do some serious research(good luck on getting the data so you can check how many children choose to remain and whatnot) in your chosen field and come back to me when you've passed some of that mighty shiny review from your peers.

This proves absolutely nothing Alanzo apart from the fact that you've lured yourself into some very illogical conclusions.

Has Chris made a study on this? I don't know the man, so I'm not sure.

 

[Alanzo]

You know that the stats on that are not readily available. There have been threads discussing suicides, but there are no official stats. That's the last thing you would be able to get a stat on from the co$! You do have stories of people going crazy while on OT III for instance. OT VIII's that have committed suicide. These things are NOT supposed to happen - they are contrary to scientology indoctrination. Per LRH, scientologists are THE EXPERTS on the human mind, so pointing out the evidence of that lie is useful.

I wouldn't say that even 1 is proof. I'm sure that a fair number of the suicides never had any auditing to try to assist them. So to say those were 'tech' failures would be unfair. However the doctrine of the evil psychs resulting in a refusal of getting mental health treatment is a valid criticism. This factor alone is something to be concerned about, just as people think JW's are wrong-headed for refusing blood transfusions.

This is a kind of spoiled teenager view of Scientology. "YOU SAID IT WAS ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO WORK!!!"

Yes. We know that was the claim. But we're beyond that now. We're looking at claims and trying to put them into some kind of objective perspective to really evaluate what's going on. In the real world, it is not reasonable to say that no scientologist should ever commit suicide.

So let's evaluate the claim that Tony constantly makes: Lack of access to psychiatry causes scientology suicides.

The suicide rate in mainstream society is 14 per 100 thousand per year. Psychiatric access is available to this population. Not saying they all take advantage of it. But that number does include those suicides which do happen under psychiatric care.

There are what? 30 thousand Scientologists?

Do you think 42 Scientologists kill themselves every year?

 

[PirateAndBum]

Alanzo said: ↑
Unpopular Opinion: Your own power of choice is never diminished or destroyed by any Scientology 'brainwashing technique - throughout your recruitment, membership, and departure from Scientology.

This is beside the point. If you are given a boatload of lies and deception how is one to make a properly informed decision? It's not about one's power of choice, it's about the beliefs that have been instilled into you that guide your power of choice in ways that may not be to your best interest.

 

[He-man]

I am saying that your own power of choice - that which is inside you to decide to act in your own self-interests OR NOT, is never diminished by any "brainwashing technique." Scientology or otherwise.

This is what brainwashing is supposed to do, isn't it? Diminish or eradicate your own ability to choose or decide things in your own self-interests?

Yeah.

That never goes away.

The proof is when you finally DO decide to leave. If you were brainwashed, and brainwashing worked as advertised, you would never leave.

The power of choice is a very interesting thing to think about with regard to "cults". Much more productive than "I WAS BRAINWASHED!"

Alanzo, your power of choice can be diminished in so many ways, brainwashing or no brainwashing. By your logic of reason, everyone would either a)keep smoking dem cigarettes for the rest of their lives, or b) everyone would quit.

Some people DO decide to leave, often after a lot of mental anguish. That is were the power of choice probably could be proven to have been diminished, I suspect that when people leave their floorball team because they got flippen boored, or decided to change therapist, that the same amount of anguish wouldn't be present.

 

[PirateAndBum]

This is a kind of spoiled teenager view of Scientology. "YOU SAID IT WAS ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO WORK!!!"

Yes. We know that was the claim.

The suicide rate in mainstream society is 14 per thousand per year.

There are what? 30 thousand Scientologists?

Do you think 420 Scientologists kill themselves every year?

I have no data. I will say that the co$ pre-screens it's members to exclude if possible the mentally unstable. They are certainly screened before being allowed to be processed -- thus obviating the possible claim that the processing was at fault for any potential nuttiness. So, given this screening I would think the percentages would fall below the measured norms.

 

[Alanzo]

I have no data. I will say that the co$ pre-screens it's members to exclude if possible the mentally unstable. They are certainly screened before being allowed to be processed -- thus obviating the possible claim that the processing was at fault for any potential nuttiness. So, given this screening I would think the percentages would fall below the measured norms.

This is thinking with a fuller data set. Much less able to be emotionally manipulated this way.

I like it.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

The suicide rate in mainstream society is 14 per 100 thousand per year. Psychiatric access is available to this population. Not saying they all take advantage of it. But that number does include those suicides which do happen under psychiatric care.

There are what? 30 thousand Scientologists?

Do you think 42 Scientologists kill themselves every year?

Are you using special Scientology arithmetic?

You must be, because the "wog" arithmetic number is not 42.

The Scientology cult excludes anyone it considers has any kind of serious mental problem. It selects its people. It feeds off healthy people.

So, aside from your erroneous arithmetic, you're comparison is misleading.

 

[Veda]

Scientology has had problems with people going crazy under its "Hubbard Guidance" virtually since its inception.

It was such a problem that L. Ron Hubbard, in the 'Professional Auditors Bulletin' of 30 September 1955, explained:

"I could tell you about long strings of psychotics run in on the Foundation and the Association, sent in to us by psychiatrists who then, using LSD and pain-drug-hypnosis, spun them and told everyone that Dianetics and Scientology drove people insane. I could tell you about the strange politics and ambitions of psychiatry, so well covered in the book Psychopolitics [Note: that refers to Hubbard's hoax Russian textbook, which he had just secretly authored, and was soon to have privately published], and give you a proper riddle as to why we, a small group, the only ANGLO-SAXON DEVELOPMENT IN THE FIELD OF THE MIND AND SPIRIT [sic], have been subjected to so much attack and finance... But I am not telling you stories or being dramatic. I am inviting your cooperation in your own future security..."

As for dealing with those whose behavior became erratic or an embarrassment after Scientology processing, Hubbard wrote, in the same 'PAB':

"You'll find the family physician or psychiatrist was called in midway in processing... You'll find there is a vested interest somewhere in the insanity of the person. An so testify that you suspect it. We will have on hand lots of literature on LSD..."

Sixteen years later, Hubbard would write a similar policy, although this one doesn't mention LSD and is more to the point. It has the simple title 'Confidential', and is dated 29 June 1971:

"Policy is that we assign any case or upset in Scientology to past damage and interference with the person by medicine or psychiatry. They were sent into us after medicine or psychiatry had already destroyed them. We cannot be blamed for psychiatric or medical failures."


Such deceit is mind boggling.

 

[Dulloldfart]

When I need to calm down I do OT TR 0. It works but I usually fall asleep, just like I did in Scn

Maybe you just need more sleep.

Now, I used to love the 30 minutes "TRs" that tech guys got to do first thing in the morning. Everyone would do "OT TR 0" (kinda doze off without falling off the chair) because the schedule didn't allow enough sleep time. Just like having to see the Pro TRs film for the 20th time -- here we even got to doze in a darkened room!

Paul

 

[freethinker]

Around 1990 or '91, a.r.s. was available on the military site where I had a UNIX shell account. The text description in the text newsreader was "He's Dead, Jim." It eventually made a paradigm shift possible for me away from fence sitting, which ESMB continued in many ways. A major difference is that a.r.s. was unmoderated, which is where the "alt" hierarchy differed from other USENET newsgroups. It was possible to "shout people down" by piling on, shaming or bullying, outing the anonymous posters, etc., yet it took the OSA minion many years to refine their techniques to the point where some can be effective at levels of disruption that the crude Kobrin cancellation message against a.r.s. pales in comparison to.

Effective moderation takes willing volunteers who understand what they are looking at. There need to be enforceable rules which are agreed upon by posters. Typically a complex rule set eventually falls by the wayside (and here I am speaking from the viewpoint of a former moderator on several less volatile boards who walked away from the role) and can drift into vendetta and bias. It is damn hard to be fair and ESMB has mostly succeeded for longer than I would have predicted.

Where has all this insight been Mr. Gallo? What more could you share?

 

[freethinker]

To think all this time I thought sales was all about getting people to buy things they usually can do without.

You have gone on and on about people here being fixated on some kind of blind loyalty to an anti-Scientology mind set and yet you still apply Scientology to your life.

Not everyone who joined Scientology were vulnerable at the time. Some had curiosity. Some saw it as a way to help other people. Some thought it might make a better world but you think it was because they were ripe for the picking. Not true. Some people actually endeavor to improve things rather than criticize that they are not good now.

People like that want to improve things when there is nothing really wrong with what they want to improve, they just want to make it better.

For you, every action of human behavior is just for advantage over others. You perceive people as marks while you place yourself as having great wisdom, yet you still use a technology you say you left to take advantage of people you perceive as frail and stupid, easily deceived.

But you use a technology that is only used to deceive.

You should take a good look at yourself before you criticize others for what you believe is their weakness.

Scientology hasn't improved anyone's life IMO. You have people who talk about their wins and gains who end up having the same problem later on down the road. I don't call that a gain, and it certainly isn't something that Scientology created.

I know there are many here who will disagree with that but do they really have some ability regained from Scientology or do they just believe it was Scientology because they paid a lot of money for it? There are a lot of people every day making gains where Scientology, or any other therapy had no part in it.

 

[Alanzo]

The Internet is the barnyard of the powerless.

 

[freethinker]

Does that also apply to the children who were forced into the Sea Org because their parents were to afraid to say no to the "church"?

Does that also apply to the memebers of the Sea Org?

Does that also apply to the people who were sent to the RPF?

Are you honestly saying that none of these were being brainwashed - witch resulted in a diminished power of choice?

Seems like that is what he is saying. Of course, if he doesn't like that he will say so, or not.

 

[Type4_PTS]

<snip>
Don't believe me, [email protected]. As a second gen himself, he has said repeatedly that very few children actually follow their parents into scientology - by a very significant minority. And those who go on to the Sea Org are also a minority.
<snip>

Would you please link to just one of these instances where Chris has said this so we can hear it from him as well as the context.

Any reason that you didn't cite a reference from one of the social scientists you follow to provide this information?

You've stressed the importance of utilizing scientific ideas when evaluating Scientology. It would help if you cited a reference from one of the scientists as well as the opinion of Chris Shelton.

 

[freethinker]

The Internet is the barnyard of the powerless.

Look who's talking.

 

[Alanzo]

Look who's talking.

Said the sheep to the donkey.