The ESMB Unpopular Opinions Thread

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
I have another one. Gerry Armstrong puzzles me. I am fully aware of the whistle he blew, but in the interview with Spanky Taylor, he dodged certain questions about what cargo went on the ship. His answer was cigarettes, but his eyes rolled around when he said it.

His open letter video criticism of each new book, with a point by point takedown is just puzzling to me. Most of his videos are filmed in a library with Hubbards books.
I've seen folks in FB groups shouted down for asking.
Can you provide links to the stuff you're talking about? I for one haven't seen it.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
I'm astonished that you feel you got the most gains out of O/W writeups.

I never felt this was anything but an effort to make the person feel guilty and degraded. It was implied that since you were the kind of person who would commit such horrible acts, you desperately needed the "tech" to straighten you out. Maybe if you kept your mouth shut and did what you were told you might get it. You had no right to question anything because you were so degraded.

Most of the time I didn't even feel the things I was writing were real overts. They were just things that are supposed to be overts in scn. They weren't things I really thought were wrong. Sometimes I had to desperately search for things to write up because I knew I was supposed to have overts.

Writing up O/W's was one of those things I never liked, but went along with because I felt I had to. "Case gain" I feel I got from it: ZERO.
Each to their own. I was brought up a Catholic. Maybe I missed confession, I dunno. But I did get a lot out of them personally.
 

chipgallo

Patron Meritorious
Each to their own. I was brought up a Catholic. Maybe I missed confession, I dunno. But I did get a lot out of them personally.
Yep. I had a 3rd dynamic confessional where I was pretty honest, but afterwards I felt like leaving Scientology. After the KTL/LOC, I really felt like my purpose was elsewhere. Other non-Hubbard authored material paves a path out as well (Data Series in particular, and some of the uncensored Student Hat). It is hard to convince some exes that they didn't have "wins," since when one completes a process it often results in a good feeling just from the act. Could be an extended placebo effect, but I like to believe that the workable bits of Scientology were not usually created by Hubbard but, rather, adopted by him from others' work. Early on he would give credit where it was due, but as time passed he became Source and obfuscated the original authors. This lack of footnotes and references makes the subject impossible to study if you want to read the works that preceded the Borg-like absorption, i.e., All Your Good Ideas Are Belong to Us. And it's a cult so there is that little bugaboo.
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
After the KTL/LOC, I really felt like my purpose was elsewhere.


Very common reaction, particularly to LOC. I've posted about this on this board before.

Especially problematic with the Sea Org. A record number of SO staff who completed LOC routed out of the Sea Org shortly after.

Probably was one of the reasons these two courses disappeared.
 

chipgallo

Patron Meritorious
Very common reaction, particularly to LOC. I've posted about this on this board before.

Especially problematic with the Sea Org. A record number of SO staff who completed LOC routed out of the Sea Org shortly after.

Probably was one of the reasons these two courses disappeared.
The isolated delivery line, separate C/S, supervisors, Ethics person along with KTL course room made it burdensome. They were pricing it for $5K and as long as it takes, but weren't supposed to mix in other courses in the same room. Other services were mostly prohibited while on the KTL, which impedes reg cycles. They piloted it around 1980 (we lost our receptionist to it) and then didn't roll it out until nearly the next decade. You would think they could spot the "GTFO" cogs somewhere in there, right?

I took it as FCDC staff at ITO and blew immediately upon graduation. Of course the 3-4 months we were told it would take stretched out to a year and ITO used us as indentured servants on their own delivery lines while our permission to be on the course was processed.
 
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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Yep. I had a 3rd dynamic confessional where I was pretty honest, but afterwards I felt like leaving Scientology. After the KTL/LOC, I really felt like my purpose was elsewhere. Other non-Hubbard authored material paves a path out as well (Data Series in particular, and some of the uncensored Student Hat). It is hard to convince some exes that they didn't have "wins," since when one completes a process it often results in a good feeling just from the act. Could be an extended placebo effect, but I like to believe that the workable bits of Scientology were not usually created by Hubbard but, rather, adopted by him from others' work. Early on he would give credit where it was due, but as time passed he became Source and obfuscated the original authors. This lack of footnotes and references makes the subject impossible to study if you want to read the works that preceded the Borg-like absorption, i.e., All Your Good Ideas Are Belong to Us. And it's a cult so there is that little bugaboo.
Very common reaction, particularly to LOC. I've posted about this on this board before.

Especially problematic with the Sea Org. A record number of SO staff who completed LOC routed out of the Sea Org shortly after.

Probably was one of the reasons these two courses disappeared.
That's interesting about people wanting to leave after those two courses.

No doubt that that was a major contributing factor as to why they were scrapped, if not the only reason.

I had not done either one of them. Why did doing them lead to people heading for the exit door?
 

chipgallo

Patron Meritorious
That's interesting about people wanting to leave after those two courses.

No doubt that that was a major contributing factor as to why they were scrapped, if not the only reason.

I had not done either one of them. Why did doing them lead to people heading for the exit door?
In some aspects the courses were effective at helping identify personal goals. It just took too damn long and tended to lower one's IQ with mind numbing minutiae of word clearing, etc. Then when I announced my goal of working in media, they were shocked that I didn't want to be on staff and help achieve *those* goals. I think they put me with a senior sec checker (informally) to attempt a debug. I imagine others have similar stories.
 
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Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
In some aspects the courses were effective at helping identify personal goals. It just took too damn long and tended to lower one's IQ with mind numbing minutiae of word clearing, etc. Then when I announced my goal of working in media, they were shocked that I didn't want to be on staff and help achieve those goals. I think they put me with a senior sec checker (informally) to attempt a debug. I imagine others have similar stories.
When I was on the RPF in Clearwater I decided that I no longer wished to be in the Sea Org as part of doing the Ethic's conditions.

They didn't take too kindly to that, and SP Declared me shortly thereafter. :D

It wasn't too smart of them to do that because at that point I had a genuine intention of working full-time as being a field staff member, not just to bring individuals into Scientology, but to bring companies in (via WISE), and to open up and establish new countries as well, and I had already worked towards that in the years prior. I had joined the S.O. with the SMI INT Expansion Office in Clearwater, which was working to open new countries for Scientology. And prior to that worked with Social Coordination International, which was working to open up China, Russia, and other countries to Scientology and/or their front groups)

I'm grateful now that they SP declared me, which led me to real freedom. It was difficult at the time as I didn't see it coming and got put out on the street with 12 cents in my pocket, and was disconnected from some friends I still miss today (30 years later), but looking back at it all now I wouldn't change a thing. The SP Declare was truly the best thing CoS ever did for me.
 
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Lulu Belle

Moonbat
That's interesting about people wanting to leave after those two courses.

No doubt that that was a major contributing factor as to why they were scrapped, if not the only reason.

I had not done either one of them. Why did doing them lead to people heading for the exit door?


There's a few good KTL/LOC threads on ESMB. Here's one with a lot of info:

https://exscn.net/forum/threads/key-to-life-life-orientation-course-changes.664/

Here's one of my posts from this thread. Gives a little insight...

.............

Does anyone else remember the Pam Jepson cycle at the HGB?

Pam Jepson was previously Pam Loewing, wife of Rudi Loewing. When she was married to Rudi, they had something like 5 kids. Rudi went out-2D with Claire Rousseau (that was a whole other flappy saga). Pam and Rudi got divorced.

Pam eventually remarried Steve Jepson. He was posted as Security Chief at the HGB. Pam was on some HCO post there; don't remember what.

So you have two long time, experienced staff members who are both HCO qual'd. Those who have been in know how valuable the SO considers this type of staff member to be.

Pam does KTL and LOC. Her cognition on LOC is that she wants to "create free beings".

Well, I'm sure no one thought much of it. Sounds very Scientological and Sea Org-y as a goal.

But she meant it literally.

Within a month she was pregnant.

This was way after the "no kids" issue was out in the SO. She must have been adamant about keeping the baby. Her and Phil both wound up out of the Sea Org.

This was a major impetus for the first (of, I'm sure, many) "investigations into the out tech delivery of KTL and LOC".


Personally, as a staff member, I found LOC - hard to find the word - "unsettling". The beginning of the course makes you break your life down into its various parts: all your divisions and departments.

Well, in the SO you have no life, except for being on staff. You don't own anything. You don't really have an actual 2D with a family life and kids. You have no time to call your own.

How are you supposed to fill out these elaborate detailed org boards, with your Div 6 and your Div 2 and your PR departments and everything else?

Without meaning to, it really highlighted all you were missing in life being a Sea Org member.

Then, somehow, by the end of the course the materials take some kind of bizzare convoluted turn to imply that the best thing you could do for your multicompartmentalized org board was to join staff.

It made no sense.

Not too surprising that so many staff routed out soon after completing the course.
 

pineapple

Silver Meritorious Patron
Each to their own. I was brought up a Catholic. Maybe I missed confession, I dunno. But I did get a lot out of them personally.
If you got a lot out of it, good for you.

I was brought up Catholic too. I stopped believing in it when I was 13, and thought I'd left all of that behind. I was wrong.

"I haven't decided whether to destroy the Catholic church or merely start a new one."
-- LRH letter to Forrest J. Ackerman, 13 Jan 1949.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
She went from being beside him everywhere he went to not being anywhere in sight. She done went missing from an observer's POV.

Did Dave know where she was? LOL, of course.

Did Mike? Maybe, but probably not. He was hole-bait, why would Dave tell the SP shit?
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
I like him in Live Die Repeat and Repeat. its an excellent
sci fi movie and has Emily Blunt. I still think his best acting
was Risky Business.
amusingly enough I mentioned that movie to a friend the other day. Live Die Repeat was a good sci-fi movie as you say, I told my friend that I liked two movies that Cruise has done - Top Gun and this one. I also said that he's a turd - but there again so is De Niro and I like several of his movies too.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
You claim to know this from your conversations with Aaron.

Given that you were dishonest about an exchange you and I have had here on ESMB even though it is in writing, it's a bit difficult to accept your version of events of a phone conversation with Aaron.

Also, you write on your blog:
"As the head of the Office of Special Affairs, Rinder would have known all about their decision to end their marriage, and to separate."

I've never heard any reports that they ended their marriage or decided to seperate. Did David Miscavige tell you that?
Why does he still wear his wedding ring these days?
 
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