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The Ethics Conditions

Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by honeywhite, Jun 25, 2017.

  1. honeywhite

    honeywhite Patron

    I don't know whether I should call myself a border-line Scientologist or not. I'm not an Ex and have no first hand exposure to the Cult, nor do I want to have any. My religion is Christianity but I occasionally see an unaffiliated auditor and more than occasionally do the exercises Ron wrote up in "Self Analysis". They've helped. I've done the Student Hat Course at the age of 15 or so with a friend, just because I wanted to improve my study habits, and they've also helped to the extent that I wrote a book to help others. On the other hand, I view Hubbard as nothing more or less than a man, with all the qualities and foibles this entails, and I'm a rockslammer whenever the word Miscavige is mentioned, and, to an extent, Hubbard.

    I'm wondering if anyone else has found good, as well as bad, in the ethics formulas. The way they're done in the cult, sure, Scientology Ethics are anything but. If I recognise, however, that I'm, say, in a condition of doubt... and then apply the steps of the Doubt Formula precisely, and they completely scrub all aspects of doubt out of my mind so that I am now certain in the facts of whatever I'm researching, isn't Ron worthy of thanks, at least for that? I've used the Ethics Formulas on a first-dynamic level as a matter of routine, and they always seem to help. The Non-Existence Formula is, in my eyes, the best of them all; it produces tangible wins every single time I apply it (and I am in fact viewed as non-existent, or rather not viewed as existent), no exceptions.

    Any other Ethics Condition lovers out there? Whether you're applying them to journalism, study, religious work, book writing, computer repair...
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  2. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    What an interesting post. It just goes to show how every individual is unique and reacts and responds to the world at large in a myriad different ways. If auditing, the 'Self-Analysis' exercises and the Student Hat work for you I think you can can count yourself fortunate. They did bugger-all for me and, if I read this message board right, a large percentage of the people here.

    Personally I haven't found anything good in the ethics formulas. I'm not sure I understand how "the way they're done in the cult" as you put it, makes them any different to your way unless you are altering them.

    When I was a scientologist I deluded myself that following the steps of any given condition was of practical use, but looking back I realise I was just kidding myself. I would never even contemplate using them in my day-to-day life anymore.
     
  3. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    I have never found Hubbard's "Condition Formulas" to be particularly insightful or useful. While I was on staff, and had to "apply them", it was always "how can I massage what I actually did so it (kind of) fits the formula."

    You can do that, but that doesn't mean the formulas actually work. I always found that common sense works much better -- and that often meant doing things that either weren't in the formulas or doing things that technically "violated" the formulas. But, then, I was more interested in getting things done rather than pretending Hubbard was "always right".

    Common sense and paying attention works much better than Hubbard's imaginary, one-size-fits-all, over-simplified "formulas".

    In the real world, Hubbard's formulas just don't work.
     
  4. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    There's some common sense in a lot of what Hubbard says, including the Ethics Formulas.

    The problem is, the stuff that more-or-less works is the bait for the trap. People think "well, the intro stuff works, so maybe the deeper stuff works too", and before you realize it, you've been suckered out of $thousands.
     
  5. dchoiceisalwaysrs

    dchoiceisalwaysrs Gold Meritorious Patron

    If you say it is 15 minutes after the hour, you might be correct 24 times a day. However, if you are just guessing you could also be wrong 1,416 times a day. Now if you go by precise date and locate timing then you can be wrong 83,544 times a day. Yes, I would say that hubbard with all his water drops from the ocean of time did actually come close to having a few correct drops in his 30+ million words, but then again maybe his drops were a little tainted with homeopathic poison too.

    My point is, why draw drops from the well which sooner or later harmed almost every human who did so?
     
  6. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    Some of it reads like a 12-step program of making up damage and seeking re-entry, finding out what YOU are doing that is out-ethics.

    In the right hands, correctly administered in moderation in an effort to help it's constructive and possibly therapeutic.

    In the hands of Hu666ard and Scientology it's devastating.

    But that's pretty much true about all of it.
     
  7. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    There is a lot more to Scientology "Ethics" than what is in the "Introduction to Scientology Ethics" book. This is intended for naive newbies. You are missing a lot of Policy Letters, Flag Orders, Base Orders, LRH advices, etc. Without these and the organization to override your own volition, use of the book is out of context.

    Tell the local Ethics Officer that you posted this query on ESMB and all will be made clear.

    But I suggest spending some time here first:

    http://suppressiveperson.org/
     
  8. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    I've been out of scientology for many years and in all that time I haven't used the ethics conditions once.

    I find common sense works better.
     
    Operating DB likes this.
  9. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

    Soderqvist1: no! your results is not impressive!
     
  10. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

    Scientology doesn't work, none of it!
    Some people claim it does, but the same is with them; their results are not impressive!
     
  11. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    One of the main problems I've always had with the Conditions is the unrealistic expectation that a problem can be resolved simply with a change in perspective or attitude, or state of mind or an acknowledgement that a Condition or Conditions exist. This is often the end result that satisfies the Church which speaks to their need for you to get your head straight around Scientology. But in real life things like conditions and problems take time and a lot of work and planning and things don't go in a straight line. And the idea that once a condition has been achieved that it is now terminatedly handled is unrealistic. If you did Doubt on Scientology does that mean you never do Doubt again? Why can't you have the right to do Doubt every moment of every day? The information that you had available to you can and probably does change every day, with every new thing you read in Scientology material or on the internet. Why can't it take just one new piece of information like LRH's true biography, The Hole, beating staff or Lisa McPherson's death to instantly and permanently undo a previous Doubt Condition? The Conditions Formulas can be burdensome. To that extent we are less inclined to want to do them or repeat them when we should. There are Conditions for each of the 8 Dynamics, essentially anything and everything that does or does not exist, and for everything and everybody within those Dynamics - literally an infinite number of Dynamics all in a constant state of flux and all changing in relation to each other. What if getting out of Confusion with God and all eternity is just too much work and I would rather light up the barbie and enjoy a cold beer? That isn't a very solid foundation for the making of a steely eyed global clearing Scientologist. If doing Conditions becomes too burdensome then we become inclined to want to accept them for what they are at the moment we consider them resolved.

    Whoever assigns these Conditions and has authority to approve their completion defines the expectation. If you cheat on your spouse, would applying the Condition of Treason really satisfy your spouse's expectation with the cognition of "Finding out that you are"? "Honey, I found out that I am, can I be upgraded to Enemy now?"

    Of course in real life this is ridiculous but in Scientology it is implicit that your soul searching has resulted in a decision that whatever you are, you are something that will lead you back to being a trusted and devout follower of Scientology. In real life you get divorced and you live with the consequences of your decisions and actions forever and there is no amount of Scientology Conditions that will get you remarried. This is because someone else's condition has been permanently changed and it is not within your power to make them do the Conditions to your satisfaction. Scientology teaches that you are virtually god by virtue of ability to get your way by applying LRH doctrine but that is the Catch-22 every Scientologist must eventually learn - as soon as there are more than one god then you are just another player on the cosmic board and not omni-anything.

    The Conditions Formulas make your thinking rigid and your expectations unrealistic. If you really want to change conditions you need to be exactly the opposite.

    [h=3]PDF]THE CONDITIONS - matrixfiles.com.[/h]www.matrixfiles.com/Scientology%20Materials/.../INTRODUCTION_TO_%20SCIEN...


    INTRODUCTION INTO SCIENTOLOGY ETHICS 2 ... THE ANTI-SOCIAL PERSONALITY THE ANTI-SCIENTOLOGIST. ... THE CONDITIONS FORMULAS .
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  12. Bill

    Bill Gold Meritorious Patron

    Exactly. Good people who truly want to help people can interpret and modify Hubbard's 'tech" so that it isn't particularly harmful. That is true of a lot of things. But vanilla Hubbard "tech" doesn't work and if followed "religiously" WILL harm and damage people.

    The fact that good people can make some of it not harmful is part of the trap. As a hole :)biggrin:) it does harm people.
     
  13. Soul of Ginnungagab

    Soul of Ginnungagab Patron with Honors

    It is many years ago I applied those formulas, so I certainly don't use them anymore. But yes you can find common sense especially when there is an idea that you didn't think of and then think, oh yes that will work. I applied the doubt formula to get off staff and it worked fine; the ethics officer could only say one word which was "OK" as it was actually well written.

    The main difference between you and a Scientologist is that you have no connection to a Scientology organization and thus you are free to apply what you find useful and disregard the rest. Theoretically a Scientologist have the same freedom but in actual practice that doesn't quite happen.

    ***
     
  14. AngeloV

    AngeloV Gold Meritorious Patron

    Time spent studying the cult is time wasted; time spent studying almost anything else is time wisely spent.

    Learning a new joke is better than learning cult stuff.
    Learning how to clean out a cat litter box is better than learning cult stuff.

    So, don't waste your time.
     
  15. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Hubbards ethics, ethics conditions, are also based on stats. You are considered ethical if you are upstat, and considered unethical if you are downstat. What this correlates to basically is making money for Hubbard's organization know as scientology for which he made money from.
     
  16. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Cleared Tomato

    Just thinking off of cuff here, I don't see any big discoveries here. Even when I was in Scientology, my Ethics book would automatically flop open to the Condition of Doubt page because of over use. :duh:

    I seemed to be applying that thing more than anything else I did in Scientology! Either that or Liability. To this day I have trouble making decisions because I am always worried about what the goddamned greatest good will be!

    I do remember the very last time I did the condition of Doubt though. It was shortly before I quit. I had the epiphany that I should make a decision based on the greatest good for me, across any dynamic. It's MY life.

    I think it's just common sense to weigh out the pros and cons to anything and make the best decision in your life as it applies to anything. Different people will decide different things. Some of us are more selfish than others. Some of us are too indecisive, or want to please everyone, or don't even know what they want. But overall it's reasonable to consider how your steps in life will effect others. Duh.

    Liability is nothing but public humiliation. It has been used as an ethics action for ALL the wrong reasons in the cult. Shameful shit! Effective blows like disconnecting from families, to attacks on psychiatric doctors, mean letters, you name it. Then you have to degrade yourself -- publicly -- in order to gather signatures while begging to be allowed to come "back?"

    How is that useful in life?
     
    Operating DB likes this.
  17. Peter Soderqvist

    Peter Soderqvist Patron with Honors

    You can put Scientology to test, ethics condition versus common sense!!
    Find a condition in your life and use ethics condition on it and compare that result with how it will be if you used your own common sense?
    I predict that Ethics condition will never defeat Common Sense!
    Put Scientology in the trashcan where it belong!
     
  18. Demented Hubbatd

    Demented Hubbatd Patron with Honors

    The problem with Hubbard's ethics conditions or any other ethics conditions is that a person who uses them resorts to self-analysis, But, as any psychologist would tell you, this is a no-no. You should seek professional help if you want to improve your life or cure your mental illness.

    You might think that a trained Scientology auditor is a substitute for a professional psychologist or a psychiatrist. But professionals familiar with the Scientology procedures find them pseudo-scientific and dangerous, as my cousin, who is a clinical psychologist, does.
     
  19. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    Yes. See the definition of "Kha-Khan" in the policy on Ethics Protection.

    If your "stats were up" (.e., you were doing things that resulted in LRH making money), then you could be as much of a son of a bitch towards the "peasants" as you wanted to be, and Ethics was not supposed to care (as long as your actions did not result in a flap which overall damaged stats).
     
  20. Enthetan

    Enthetan Master of Disaster

    I had a friend whose favorite phrase was "the greatest good for the greatest number of MY (thumping chest) dynamics". In the Dianetics book, chapter "The Four Dynamics", LRH makes a point that the "optimum solution" would be one which benefited ALL of the person's dynamics, including the first and second dynamics (self and family).

    Of course, this viewpoint went away once LRH had Orgs, even though not specifically cancelled. The new viewpoint was that the "greatest good" was whatever benefited the expansion of Scn. I think this came as a result of the number of Dynamics being expanded from 4 to 8. With four Dynamics, a solution which benefited the 3rd and 4th Dynamics could not be considered optimum if it damaged the person's 1st and 2nd. With 8 dynamics, the 1st and 2nd got outnumbered.