The Freezone & those who don't want it

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
This is something I've been wanting to say for a while here.

I do not believe in denying anyone's right to comment adversely or negatively on the Freezone. I believe in freedom of speech.

However, some of the things that have been said here and elsewhere have not always been accurate or fair.

I've heard time and time again on OCMB and a.r.s.- people are leaving CofS (and Scn) and they don't need to hear about this stuff anymore, can't Freezoners just leave them alone?

Well, as an enthusiastic advocate of the Do Not Call list which we have in the US, I respect anyone's right not to be preached to.

But how does that affect discussion?

If someone calls you or emails you or comes up to you in person to sell you something you do not want, they are right there and the communication is there whether or not you want it. YOU have the burden of saying "No." This is something that I have never liked because it's a pain in the ass to have to field salesmen. I definitely sympathize there.

But if a topic or thread is entitled "hi, Lookie lookie, the Freezone is awesome, come join us", a person has the option of not reading the thread.
There's been much resentment expressed on OCMB, particularly, about happy FZ threads. I actually understand it because, although a person has the option of not clicking on the thread, if it's mixed in with the general group of topics and threads, it's kind of there whether you want it to be or not. Though I still think people overreact greatly to that. But I can still understand it, anyway.

However, on ESMB, there's a section called Freezone. You have to WANT to go there, you have to DELIBERATELY go there. The area with the success stories- which garnered some flak recently- is separately named Freezone success stories. It is VERY easy for anyone to just stay away from the FZ section of the board and even easier to stay away from having to see any "wins" or testimonials because of the set up. There's no imposition on anyone. There's no happy happy FZ thread on ESMB mixed in with threads praising Tory, Arnie Lerma, Xenu, or threads talking about the indentured servitude, slavery, coerced disconnection and abortions, child neglect in CofS, or threads about pricing, etc. And even on the forums where such does get mixed, well, it's easy enough not to click on the topic. Though I like the set up here, better, because it sets up sections of the board that are in accordance with people's interests.

I see a big difference between posting on a thread and expressing disagreements with the study and practice of Scn outside CofS and saying that someone should not post on a section of the board that was set up for that purpose.

I've bumped into the latter a lot. I have had several people tell me that, for example, just my saying that I have a continuing interest in Scn is the same thing as advertising it or promoting it. It's not, of course, but my posts saying that I like Scn and that I think it works would constitute promoting Scn. However, I don't write that stuff on any critical forum other than here or Beliefnet. But, unfortunately, some people do not recognize the difference.

The pro FZ posts do promote Scn. The posts saying that the writer happens to be an indie or FZ Scientologist and leaving it at that- do not promote or advertise Scn.

So I am left with an inescapable conclusion. Those who rail at people who say they are non CofS Scn'ists when there's no proselytizing taking place and those who rail at people for posting in a section specifically created to post FZ wins are advocating censorship and limitation of the rights of others to speak freely and worship/philosophize freely.

There's no getting around that.
 

Div6

Crusader
I third it.

There are viable alternatives for those who wish to avail themselves of the tech
outside the "aegis" of RTC and its minions. A lot of it can be done solo....and it directly DA's the whole "lose your eternity" can't have that HCO likes to run.....

Lemme see, where is my PTS\SP pack again? :eyeroll:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Right. It's good to have choices.

Some people want to know about the choices.

Some people don't want any of that, anymore, and they are well within their rights to not do Scn anymore and to say so publicly.

Nobody wants to make ex Scn'ists do Scn.

So I don't appreciate ex Scn'ists or other critics telling me I can't do Scn if I want to.
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
People are just used to being boxed in, packaged and labeled.

Everyone is "supposed to" (enforce word) fit in a catagory. Tied very neatly and organized into sections.

XScientologists are supposed to be filed by catagory too!

If you are not part of the Church you are "supposed to be" doing this and that.

You are supposed to be in your area of the barnyard.

This is just as bad as what goes on inside the Church.

As if they are the ones paying your mortgage payment, some people cannot tolerate the idea that you have escaped from one of the assigned boxes. It just confuses them.

After all, everyone out of the Church's arena is supposed to be anti anti anti.

Otherwise you are unpatriotic.

It's ancient programming.

The whole package.

"If you want to get real tragic, forget it was just magic."
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
P.S. It's a thin line, between love and hate.

So, when you bump into people that hate just remember, they stand just over a fragile line right next to love.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I have heard that about love and hate. I personally do not believe it. No offense meant, but I think there's a huge difference. In one you have great affinity- to the point where it exceeds strong liking, fondness, etc. In one you have severe lack of affinity- to the point where other postulates enter the picture - such as teaching the person a (unfriendly) lesson, getting revenge, etc.

An "ARC break" can certainly kick a person over from love to hate but it has to be a big one. And there has to be a postulate (decision for those who don't really want to wade through Scn-o speak) to go with the ARC break that results in a hatred as opposed to "yeah, whatever. Don't wanna be with them no mo'."
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
thin lines between love and hate

How can you hate someone you don't care about?

How can you hate something you don't care about?

Ever hate a pebble? A plant?

It might not even be the person, it can be a ideas connected to the person.

If you love life, you can hate someone trying to destroy it.

Not because you loved the person, but because you love life.

You can hate a liar because you love the people being lied to.

But somewhere on the flip side of that hate there is a love for something.

And the hate is measured by your love for something.

You can hate injustice because you love people.

I've only hated two people in my life, and they were the people I loved the most.

Of course, got that figured out on OT2.

Don't hate them anymore.

People, each and every one, got involved with Scientology to solve a problem.

They forget about that.

But you go back to when Scientology was a solution.

Then, for many the Scientology became a new problem.

Some people can only make a problem vanish by destroying it, if there is not any other solution to that problem.

What do people do when Scientology becomes a problem instead of a solution?

I could list a lot of alternatives here.

But usually it was a PERSON , a WHO that was actually the problem.

Some people can't spot source, especially if the source is themselves.

If you love yourself.........................
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
the disadvantage of not confronting source

You see it right here in front of you: "Scientology wants me...made me...

It wasn't Scientology anything, it was one woman and her name is in the thread.

For everyone out here upset there was a WHO SUPPRESSIVE with a name and an identity that was not known or clarified.

This helps the grimm reapers.

DM is just a finnegleing little man. But because people see him as Scientology, see him as the SEA ORG, he is able to hide behind these curtains like a little piece of thread woven into a massive fabric.

When I left the Church I was very well aware of WHO I was parting distance from.

You'de be amazed at many people out here are mad at Hubbard for thing that happened after his death!

This type illusion helps people hide from view via wrong targeting.
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
I have heard that about love and hate. I personally do not believe it. No offense meant, but I think there's a huge difference. In one you have great affinity- to the point where it exceeds strong liking, fondness, etc. In one you have severe lack of affinity- to the point where other postulates enter the picture - such as teaching the person a (unfriendly) lesson, getting revenge, etc.

An "ARC break" can certainly kick a person over from love to hate but it has to be a big one. And there has to be a postulate (decision for those who don't really want to wade through Scn-o speak) to go with the ARC break that results in a hatred as opposed to "yeah, whatever. Don't wanna be with them no mo'."

I wouldn't express it as a thin line between love and hate but I think Hubbard did state that strong hate exists where there was great love before, and that makes some sense to me. Perhaps, the hate is a reaction to not being willing to give/accept the love any more. The "who's" and "what's" may seem confusing but then we rarely know who or what it is that someone has identified us with. This used to drive me crazy in CoS, because "anyone critical of another has overts on them". Well maybe, but it's just as likely they have overts on a similar terminal on the track or on any terminal that they strongly associate or identify the person with.

Cheers

tanstaafl
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I'll buy that, T and TI...I think you could get strong hate where there was strong love before, but something major has to happen. I don't think the line is thin. If it was, exspouses would be popping up on one's door step professing undying love, one would wake up in the a.m. and one's spouse and children would out of the blue be professing undying hatred...the line isn't that thin.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
The reason I think people blame LRH for stuff that happened after his death is because he did and said things that set the stage for what is going on now.
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
The reason I think people blame LRH for stuff that happened after his death is because he did and said things that set the stage for what is going on now.

I think there are two reasons:

1. Failure to take responsibility for their own decisions/condition
(I'm not talking about people criticising Hubbard, I'm talking about people who get misemotional about him)

2. When you think Scn works then you'r anchor points should out toward infinity.
When you find it doesn't do what it says on the tin, they shoot back in. Ouch. The distance travelled multiplied by the velocity of their return = the unpleasantness of the sensation. Not an easy thing to deal with - better make someone wrong (the usual MO).

Cheers

tanstaafl
 

haiqu

Patron Meritorious
The reason I think people blame LRH for stuff that happened after his death is because he did and said things that set the stage for what is going on now.


Maybe some people are still assigning him Cause.

haiqu
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
I think there are two reasons:

1. Failure to take responsibility for their own decisions/condition
(I'm not talking about people criticising Hubbard, I'm talking about people who get misemotional about him)

2. When you think Scn works then you'r anchor points should out toward infinity.
When you find it doesn't do what it says on the tin, they shoot back in. Ouch. The distance travelled multiplied by the velocity of their return = the unpleasantness of the sensation. Not an easy thing to deal with - better make someone wrong (the usual MO).

Cheers

tanstaafl

One of the traits of being under hypnosis is "I thought it".

For instance, when a person is hypnotized to touch his tie whenever I say the word "tinkle", they will touch their tie.

When asked later why they touched their tie, they will justify it by saying, "It wasn't straight so I straightened it" etc. But when asked who's idea was it to touch their tie, they will invariably say "Mine. I thought it. I did it. I am responsible for it."

In a small way, yes, they ARE responsible for sending their hand over to touch their tie. But to say that was ALL of the scenario would be to mask the other factors at work.

LRH intentionally lied about the results of auditing, the abilities you could get from it, and about his own background in order to sell Dn and Scn to the public.

As time went on, as Senior C/S for many years, he would have had ironclad proof that Scientology and Dianetics did not do what he said it would. And he always knew he had lied about his military, academic and personal lives in order to sell Scientology.

But did he stop lying? Did he correct anything?

No. Never. in 36 years of Dn and Scn, he kept right on doing it.

It's how he got people hooked on Dn and Scn.

By lying to them.

And those lies are STILL BEING USED on people in order to sell them services.

Exposing that to others so that they do not get caught up in LRH's lies is NOT "case", nor is it irresponsible blame and "natter".

To label it as such is to still be looking away from the grim reality that was L Ron Hubbard.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I agree with what both of you have said, BUT...me being me, I just gotta argue.

Hubbard created Scn. Ok, I know, truth is truth and so it was always there, but Hubbard did create the Scn tech, policy, procedures, commentary, tapes, HCOBs, PLs, PABs, lectures...etc.

And there're some things in there that are not so staff or critic or dissident-friendly.

Furthermore, since he was "Source", stuff he did during his lifetime (see Alan Walter's post about LRH laughing and taking pictures when people were overboarded) that was crappy also found its way into the Scn hall of shame.
 

Tanstaafl

Crusader
Alanzo - good points.

Fluff - I've probably mentioned it a few times already elsewhere (as it's a pet peev) and I'm sure that you already know this but I'll repeat it (if only to get my posting stat up :) ): there is the "holy trinity" - LRH, CoS, Scn tech/data.
They overlap, but they can be separated for purposes of inspection and evaluation. Sadly, there's a whole lot of identification and very little differentiation going on in relation to the trinity.

Cheers

tanstaafl
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
I Don't feel "preached to" which is why I started the "nervous" thread to get non-pushy information.

Certainly, once I have finished my inspection of all those answers and the content of the Freezone explanation thread, I may consider looking for someone in a capital city, and take a holiday to try it out, but I've sone enough training, I want processing, even if it has to be interrupted with minor tech explanations.

I want to truly experience "auditine" before I make the decision to continue or stay on my own slow but progressive path...
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
It's not fair but I don't care!

The reason I think people blame LRH for stuff that happened after his death is because he did and said things that set the stage for what is going on now.

The "It's not fair but I don't care" movement is growing like wildfire.

Started with the price increases in the Church and people being penalized financially for interest. Spread to the mission holders massaquar and the finance police wiping out the mission networks. Spread to cost of opening a mission 40,000 for a license to disseminate Scientology. I may be skipping over a few incidents here. Mary Sue Hubbard booted from the Church etc etc.
All ot8's ordered back onto seven, all auditors certs cancelled and training declared invalid with GAOT. It's just gotten down to blame Hubbard too for setting a stage. If we weren't a planet of looney's the stage wouldn't have been set for Hubbard to be of any value here. And God knows it is rampant in the Sea Org between people. The entire motto of the group and anyone that supports it is "It's not fair but we don't care!"

The whole movement is part and parcel of spiritual bankruptcy and apathy.

"It's not fair but I don't care" Is being dramatized everywhere from war in Iraq, to our school systems, to the court systems into personal relationships.

People use all manner to justify this attitude. "Because of this policy". "Because I'm Sea Org" "Because we are the Church" "Because I'm CMO" "Because I was ordered to" "Because we are America".

The ONLY reason I left the Sea Org and the Church "unscathed" is because my first metered auditing was Integrity Processing at 16.

I just didn't buy in to that movement.

"It's not fair but I don't care".

I still do care. I care very much.

And I've continued up the bridge very nicely to solo nots on my own in the Freezone with class eights and class nines without having to become part of the "It's not fair but I don't care" civilization. With other people that also did not buy into it.
 
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