The Key

[MrNobody]

Hmm. Let's see how Brecht's point holds up about subjects other than God.

A man asked Mr. K. whether there is a murderer waiting outside the door to kill him. Mr. K. said: “I advise you to consider whether, depending on the answer, your behavior would change. If it would not change, then we can drop the question. If it would change, then I can at least be of help to the extent that I can say, you have already decided: you need a murderer waiting to kill you.”

LOL, your version reminds me a bit of Schrödinger's cat.
,
Apart from that and to give you an answer, all I can say is this: At 2 different points in my life, there was in fact a real murderer "behind the door" - in one case I got kidnapped and was held hostage for a few hours (I still think that showing no fear, not being impressed and keeping my cool was what saved my ass) the other case was a somehow suspect guy - I never felt safe when he was around and I always had a close eye on him. He ended in jail for 2 (fortunately failed) attempts of killing a loved one of mine, but I only heard the full story years later.

Basically, I sometimes hang around with a lot of very different people and not all of them are safe to have around - so having a good eye on what goes on around me and knowing whom to better not show my backside is a vital skill I had to learn. Anyway, it's my job to keep my own ass safe and if I ever fail in doing so, it might well be the end of my story.

Does that thought scare me? No, not at all, because life is, AFAICS, a finite process anyway. When it's over, it's over but until then, I just live it - warts and all.

Now it just sounds stupid. Is the original version really any better? If so, why?

1st version is better because God is a fictive concept from the get-go IMHO, while the 2nd is a scenario which has been pretty real for me at certain times.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

There were bits of the OP that I agreed with, but when it came down to it I just disagreed too much with the religious stuff and felt like the person wasn't really there in the opinion - only the propaganda. Like Christianity makes people powerful.... Really? Really? I mean, I know they like spouting off about that but my experience is the complete opposite. They are as mortal and powerless as anyone else. And I'm just so over that kind of lie.

That brings up a good idea for a Reality Game Show amongst competing religions to see which belief system advances a person to the highest level of spiritual power. The first episode, for example could be SCIENTOLOGISTS vs CHRISTIANS

Oh, yeah, the name of the show is: ZEN PARKING!

Contestants compete by driving around various neighborhoods, in order to see who "is blessed with" or "pulls in" the first parking space. The winner then gets to bear witness or tell their wins about the Power of (Jesus, The Tech, God, OT, etc…)

Religious contestants must abide by the show's rules or risk elimination. For example, Radical Muslims would be disqualified for using suicide bombers against other contestants. Similarly, Scientologists would be kicked off the show for Fair Gaming their rivals by framing them as bombers--driving them to be arrested, committed to a mental hospital or commit suicide.

(Jeez, I thought there was going to be a funny punchline at the end of that one. Sorry! LOLOLOL)

 

[Student of Trinity]

1st version is better because God is a fictive concept from the get-go IMHO, while the 2nd is a scenario which has been pretty real for me at certain times.

So as Mr. K. would say, You've already decided.

This is what bothers me about Brecht's little fable. In the original version it seems as though it's offering some kind of insight, but actually it only even makes sense if you've already decided the point. In my book, insights like that aren't really insights. They're just sloganeering, like saying you should pick red over blue because red is redder.

 

[shanic89]

Re: Conspiracy

actually, I found his text size ok. Getting older, well you know, it's nice to read the screen w/o mov'in me head forward.

Sorry if I missed a joke or this is unwanted advice, but. If you are using a windows PC and you are starting to have problems because of font size. Hold down the Ctrl key and spin the mouse wheel, or Ctrl and either the + or - key, spice to personal taste.

If you are using a Mac and you have a mouse with a wheel that will work with the Ctrl key, or you have to use the key that is a square with circles at the corners, don't ask me it’s an apple, with either + or - key.

 

[MrNobody]

So as Mr. K. would say, You've already decided.

This is what bothers me about Brecht's little fable. In the original version it seems as though it's offering some kind of insight, but actually it only even makes sense if you've already decided the point. In my book, insights like that aren't really insights. They're just sloganeering, like saying you should pick red over blue because red is redder.

It's not that simple. In the Brecht scenario, One could say that I have "decided" that there is no God, but since my behavior wouldn't change anyway, I wouldn't even have to make that decision.

In my example to your scenario there was also nothing to decide, because the murderers were real in both cases. What Brecht (IMHO)said was: You decide in the moment when you feel the need to ask the question - a need which I never felt in either cases.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

Prove it.

Salvation can only be achieved through faith, not evidence. The world says "I'll believe it when I see it", but faith says "because I believe it, I will see it."


The Holy Spirit is a gentleman, He will only enter in where He is invited. So I invite you to invite Him into your heart. That will change your life. But the measurable effects come after you accept Him, not before.


Typically, this is done by praying the sinner's prayer. A simple example:


"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the doors of my heart and my life and I receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Deliver me from evil, and make me the kind of person You want me to be. In Jesus' name, Amen."


These are not magic words. They will avail nothing uless they are sincere. The sinner's prayer is a prayer one confesses to God when they understand that they are an imperfect sinner and in need of a Savior. Saying a sinner's prayer will not accomplish anything on its own. A true sinner's prayer only represents outwardly what a person knows, understands, and believes inwardly about their sinfulness and need for salvation. It only works if you believe.


But if you free your mind, and dare to believe, it will change your life and your eternity for the best, forever!


Best,


Space Cowboy

 

[Space_Cowboy]

see which belief system advances a person to the highest level of spiritual power. The first episode, for example could be SCIENTOLOGISTS vs CHRISTIANS

The highest level of spiritual power is not elitism or the ability to bend others to your will. The highest level of power in Christianity is the power of Unconditional Love. Certainly, miracles do happen. Miracles of healing, finance, restoration of minds and souls; and yes, the same Resurrection Power that rose Jesus from the grave is still alive and well within the spirit of every saved Christian, whether as a seed waiting to come forth and blossom, or in full force as with Moses and Pharaoh manifesting as signs and wonders. But the truly supernatural powers of Christianity exist not to serve the individual Christian, but instead they exist so the individual Christian can serve... first God, and second others, in a spirit of Love. Which is an idea completely at odds with a selfish and elitist world.

When Christianity grew from a few thousand followers to over a half a million in the 300 years following the Resurrection of Jesus, it happened not because of self-serving displays of power, but because the Roman Empire was facing an epidemic at the time which would eventually claim nearly 1/3 of its population. While pagan elites fled the cities in fear, Christian churches provided nursing care and sustenance to Christians and non-Christians alike, as well as a hope for supernatural healing, for the future, and for an eternal life after death. As even pagans acknowledged, Christians did love their neighbors as if they were their own family.

Even though the early church (and modern day church) included many elite Romans, and was anything but uniformly poor, history shows that the early church grew so dramatically and persists to this day not because of power, or political overthrow, or artful persuasion. It grew because Christians loved others without thought of recompense, and God honored and empowered that, and continues to do so to this day. Its not that pagans didn't value personal power and elitism, it's just that in the end, the hearts and minds of hard core pagans were changed not by self-serving parlor tricks, but by knowing the followers of Jesus Christ personally, watching their response to disaster, to poverty, and their empathy for the supposedly lowest members of society, as well as seeing the Love and community they shared amongst themselves and extended toward humanity at large as a natural way of being.

See, I don't worship Jesus Christ because I fear the threat of Hell. Instead I honor and revere Him because of the beautiful mystery of His perfect Love, which I could never be 'good' enough to deserve. And that Love, my friends, is the only thing in the Universe that can ever truly heal a hurting human soul, or turn a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.

 

[Purple Rain]

Salvation can only be achieved through faith, not evidence. The world says "I'll believe it when I see it", but faith says "because I believe it, I will see it."


The Holy Spirit is a gentleman, He will only enter in where He is invited. So I invite you to invite Him into your heart. That will change your life. But the measurable effects come after you accept Him, not before.


Typically, this is done by praying the sinner's prayer. A simple example:


"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the doors of my heart and my life and I receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Deliver me from evil, and make me the kind of person You want me to be. In Jesus' name, Amen."


These are not magic words. They will avail nothing uless they are sincere. The sinner's prayer is a prayer one confesses to God when they understand that they are an imperfect sinner and in need of a Savior. Saying a sinner's prayer will not accomplish anything on its own. A true sinner's prayer only represents outwardly what a person knows, understands, and believes inwardly about their sinfulness and need for salvation. It only works if you believe.


But if you free your mind, and dare to believe, it will change your life and your eternity for the best, forever!


Best,


Space Cowboy

And if I'll just shut the hell up and believe without evidence there's a bridge someone can sell me.... Oh, wait! And a sham wow.... Oh, wait! And an ex-husband getting me to sign over the titles to all our property to his name, and.... Oh, wait!

Anyhow, not answering this thread any more. Christianity can really hurt people and Christians take no responsibility for the hurt their religion might cause or the part that may play in the train wreck of the lives of others. But Scientology would love us to be talking about some other religion right now, so fuck them. I'm still going to talk about Scientology on this board, although I could talk about Christianity till the cows came home.

Guess I'm just going to that hot old eternal torture chamber way down below for the rest of eternity to hang out with "the devil" and most of the smart people.

 

[Purple Rain]

And that Love, my friends, is the only thing in the Universe that can ever truly heal a hurting human soul, or turn a heart of stone into a heart of flesh.

No, it's not. And see that's a lie right there. It sounds pretty, but there are heaps of things that can heal a hurting "human soul" and even when there is a correlation between a "Christian" finding some kind of emotional or "spiritual" healing through their belief system, that does not demonstrate a causality of a specific deity in that process.

And as for heart of stone into a heart of flesh. No. We all have hearts of flesh, and the heart of a Christian is no different from anyone else. Same statistics for divorce, abortion, porn "addiction", whatever. They just have to try and keep it more hidden - be more dishonest about it. Lie about it more.

When you think about it the whole "Love of Christ is the ONLY thing..." line is ARROGANT beyond belief.

And oh my god, why am I trying to argue with a cultie. You can't argue with a cultie. And once again, you never get the real person - only the rhetoric.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

And if I'll just shut the hell up and believe without evidence there's a bridge someone can sell me.... Oh, wait! And a sham wow.... Oh, wait! And an ex-husband getting me to sign over the titles to all our property to his name, and.... Oh, wait!

You know what? Christians really hurt people too with their bullshit and they take fuck all responsibility for it.

I am a professional scientist as well as a man of faith, and I can tell you when it comes to spiritual matters that no one can know or please the True, Living God without faith. Because in order to speak with Him, you must first believe that He Is, and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. I am not criticizing your skepticism, I'm just letting you know a truth I have learned.

Let me ask you this, neither of us can prove, through personal experience, anything that did or did not occur before our birth, because ostensibly, those events predate our existence. But you believe History, don't you? Why? You have no evidence of it. You believe it because you take it on faith. In fact careful analysis of a scientific worldview will show that a great deal is taken on faith as the truth, because of the interpretations of supposed evidence by fallible human beings. Example, the Universe is expanding, so there must have been a Big Bang, yes? Well, I agree. But I also see that as just as much a leap of faith as any belief I ever had in Metaphysics or spirituality, because although I was not present at Creation, I do know God personally. Because He dwells inside me, as the Holy Spirit. So His existence is more concrete to me than the Big Bang, because at least I know Him by personal experience! So if you will give fallible humanity credibility enough to trust them with your leap of faith in the Big Bang, why not be ever more willing to give God the benefit of the doubt, and trust Him in faith just once, to see if He is there? If not, you may go your entire life and miss the Creator because of an inability or unwillingness to put your faith in Him just once, when you place your faith in humanity as a matter of daily course.

With regard to your statement about Christians, isn't that a little general? It's not fair to be prejudicial against an entire group of people because of the actions of a few. And besides, Christianity has never been about organized religion. That's a bill of goods that has been sold to people by those who use Christianity as a point of control over others, and yes, those people do exist. Jesus warned about false Christs who claim to follow Him but pervert His message to gain power.

Although we are admonished not to forsake the assembly of other Christians, mainly for our own benefit through fellowship, we are not required to follow any particular denomination or creed over any other. In fact, I consider myself non-denominational. Because Christianity is truly about Love for God, Love for others, and a personal relationship with your Father in heaven through Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately, true Christianity cannot be shown to you, you have to experience it to understand it.

 

[Panda Termint]

Dear Space Cowboy, According to Wikipedia "Proselytism is considered inappropriate, disrespectful, and offensive by some individuals. As such, it is not protected in certain environments open to the public or are owned privately: government buildings, public education (grade schools and college campuses), the workplace and private properties like ones' home or front yard." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism

I'd suggest that a Message Board where people are busily recovering from the ill effects of "Religious" indoctrination could easily be added to that list of inappropriate venues.

 

[Purple Rain]

I am a professional scientist as well as a man of faith, and I can tell you when it comes to spiritual matters that no one can know or please the True, Living God without faith. Because in order to speak with Him, you must first believe that He Is, and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. I am not criticizing your skepticism, I'm just letting you know a truth I have learned.

Let me ask you this, neither of us can prove, through personal experience, anything that did or did not occur before our birth, because ostensibly, those events predate our existence. But you believe History, don't you? Why? You have no evidence of it. You believe it because you take it on faith. In fact careful analysis of a scientific worldview will show that a great deal is taken on faith as the truth, because of the interpretations of supposed evidence by fallible human beings. Example, the Universe is expanding, so there must have been a Big Bang, yes? Well, I agree. But I also see that as just as much a leap of faith as any belief I ever had in Metaphysics or spirituality, because although I was not present at Creation, I do know God personally. Because He dwells inside me, as the Holy Spirit. So His existence is more concrete to me than the Big Bang, because at least I know Him by personal experience! So if you will give fallible humanity credibility enough to trust them with your leap of faith in the Big Bang, why not be ever more willing to give God the benefit of the doubt, and trust Him in faith just once, to see if He is there? If not, you may go your entire life and miss the Creator because of an inability or unwillingness to put your faith in Him just once, when you place your faith in humanity as a matter of daily course.

With regard to your statement about Christians, isn't that a little general? It's not fair to be prejudicial against an entire group of people because of the actions of a few. And besides, Christianity has never been about organized religion. That's a bill of goods that has been sold to people by those who use Christianity as a point of control over others, and yes, those people do exist. Jesus warned about false Christs who claim to follow Him but pervert His message to gain power.

Although we are admonished not to forsake the assembly of other Christians, mainly for our own benefit through fellowship, we are not required to follow any particular denomination or creed over any other. In fact, I consider myself non-denominational. Because Christianity is truly about Love for God, Love for others, and a personal relationship with your Father in heaven through Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately, true Christianity cannot be shown to you, you have to experience it to understand it.

Been there. Done that. And I found out that if "god" is true it is just plain cruel and a liar.

Why not come to a board of ex-junkies and offer methadone? You'd have the same impact. Those who got off using methadone still use it and the others are clean and don't need it. My father was a "scientist" believer - and I have nothing but resentment for his gullibility and the way he taught me to believe without question - to accept with no proof - and to "love" some cruel ancient war god and sacrificial sun god hybrid myth. I have nothing but resentment for any "god" who would author a "universe" this way. I'm not bowing down willingly ever again. It will have to squash me like a bug, as it no doubt plans.

 

[JBWriter]

It's not clear to me what "The Key" is in the OP/Post #1 - there are quite a few concepts mentioned (Jesus/God/Christ/Holy Spirit, supernatural power, social manipulation, loving others to make yourself happy, etc.) - but I don't see which one, or which combination, is or makes up "The Key".

That said, if one or more of the concepts offered in the OP/Post #1 constitutes "The Key" -- and such is offered to the members of ESMB by the original poster, it's appropriate to inquire how this "The Key" was selected by the original poster. How did this selection occur? If rigorous study of the world's belief systems was undertaken, then it follows that most were cut from the pack, so to speak, during the selection process -- which were cut and for what reasons?

JB

 

[Panda Termint]

... and keys can just as easily lock you in as unlock things.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

No, it's not. And see that's a lie right there. It sounds pretty, but there are heaps of things that can heal a hurting "human soul" and even when there is a correlation between a "Christian" finding some kind of emotional or "spiritual" healing through their belief system, that does not demonstrate a causality of a specific deity in that process.

As you know from science, although a correlation may not be able to prove the causality of a specific deity in that process, neither can the limitations of correlation disprove the causality of deity in the process.

Because you can't put God is a test tube, and He will not be bound by the terms of your double-blind study. That's why you can't prove causality, because He intends to be known by faith and by faith alone, not by evidence. Although God can be immediately known and experienced, He cannot be compelled by His creation to be known and experienced in a way of YOUR choosing. He properly reserves the right, in His wisdom, to politely request to be known by way of His choosing. That doesn't mean he does not exist.

And as for heart of stone into a heart of flesh. No. We all have hearts of flesh, and the heart of a Christian is no different from anyone else. Same statistics for divorce, abortion, porn "addiction", whatever. They just have to try and keep it more hidden - be more dishonest about it. Lie about it more.

Christianity is not about being different from everyone else. That's elitism. It's about a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and Love for humanity at large. With regard to personal failings, I've experienced more liberty to confess my sins and boast in my imperfections to my Christian peers than I would ever feel around my secular ones. because I know my Christian peers will not make value judgments about me because of my human failures, whereas that's almost a REFLEX for the world at large. But in Christ, where sin abounds, grace abounds that much more.

People don't go to a doctor because they are well, they go to the doctor because they are sick. So it doesn't surprise me that Christians include the same cross-section of failures as you find in secular humanity. The difference is, in the life of a saved Christian, there is an acknowledgement of the state of sinfulness (i.e., confession) to God, and a taking of responsibility for it (i.e., repentance) before God, and a willingness to ask God to supernaturally help. Think "remorse". And because of the Love of Jesus, there is supernatural help available, and a progression from hurting to healed. The difference between a Christian and a secular humanist is not that the Christian is without sin, it is that the Christian has been forgiven by God for their sins, and is not to proud to accept whatever supernatural help and blessings the Father can provide, in order to better serve God and humanity.

With regard to your accusation of my being a "cultie", and being insincere about my beliefs, I forgive you. I understand that you do not know me, and if you did, you would (probably) not attack, accuse, or inaccurately generalize me in that way.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

Dear Space Cowboy, According to Wikipedia "Proselytism is considered inappropriate, disrespectful, and offensive by some individuals. As such, it is not protected in certain environments open to the public or are owned privately: government buildings, public education (grade schools and college campuses), the workplace and private properties like ones' home or front yard." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytism

I'd suggest that a Message Board where people are busily recovering from the ill effects of "Religious" indoctrination could easily be added to that list of inappropriate venues.

The First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees religious freedom and prohibits abridging the freedom of speech.

The whole point of the Constitution is that these rights are given not by the State, but by Almighty God Himself.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, but I am entitled to mine, and I don't find this discussion inappropriate at all.

I worry that you protest too much because I may have struck a personal nerve within you, and if I have, I apologize.

But I will not compromise the truth of my soul for you anymore than I would require anyone else to do so for me in order to be my friend, or hold a discussion with me.

Because that's not Love, and that's not Freedom.

Best,

Space_Cowboy

 

[Free Being Me]

I am a professional scientist as well as a man of faith, and I can tell you when it comes to spiritual matters that no one can know or please the True, Living God without faith. Because in order to speak with Him, you must first believe that He Is, and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him. I am not criticizing your skepticism, I'm just letting you know a truth I have learned.

Let me ask you this, neither of us can prove, through personal experience, anything that did or did not occur before our birth, because ostensibly, those events predate our existence. But you believe History, don't you? Why? You have no evidence of it. You believe it because you take it on faith. In fact careful analysis of a scientific worldview will show that a great deal is taken on faith as the truth, because of the interpretations of supposed evidence by fallible human beings. Example, the Universe is expanding, so there must have been a Big Bang, yes? Well, I agree. But I also see that as just as much a leap of faith as any belief I ever had in Metaphysics or spirituality, because although I was not present at Creation, I do know God personally. Because He dwells inside me, as the Holy Spirit. So His existence is more concrete to me than the Big Bang, because at least I know Him by personal experience! So if you will give fallible humanity credibility enough to trust them with your leap of faith in the Big Bang, why not be ever more willing to give God the benefit of the doubt, and trust Him in faith just once, to see if He is there? If not, you may go your entire life and miss the Creator because of an inability or unwillingness to put your faith in Him just once, when you place your faith in humanity as a matter of daily course.

With regard to your statement about Christians, isn't that a little general? It's not fair to be prejudicial against an entire group of people because of the actions of a few. And besides, Christianity has never been about organized religion. That's a bill of goods that has been sold to people by those who use Christianity as a point of control over others, and yes, those people do exist. Jesus warned about false Christs who claim to follow Him but pervert His message to gain power.

Although we are admonished not to forsake the assembly of other Christians, mainly for our own benefit through fellowship, we are not required to follow any particular denomination or creed over any other. In fact, I consider myself non-denominational. Because Christianity is truly about Love for God, Love for others, and a personal relationship with your Father in heaven through Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately, true Christianity cannot be shown to you, you have to experience it to understand it.

I was going to ask what your intentions are with your reasoning but I then recalled other Guru's landing here with "The Answer." One entrapment into cultist thinking was enough and with that said, believe what you will and pardon me as I politely offer a no thank you.

 

[SpecialFrog]

The first amendment only says that the US government cannot restrict your freedom of speech.

It does not say that the owners and operators of this website are required to publish your opinion.

So while you have a right to your opinion you don't have an inherent right to post it here.

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

>>>

 

[Purple Rain]

As you know from science, although a correlation may not be able to prove the causality of a specific deity in that process, neither can the limitations of correlation disprove the causality of deity in the process.

Because you can't put God is a test tube, and He will not be bound by the terms of your double-blind study. That's why you can't prove causality, because He intends to be known by faith and by faith alone, not by evidence. Although God can be immediately known and experienced, He cannot be compelled by His creation to be known and experienced in a way of YOUR choosing. He properly reserves the right, in His wisdom, to politely request to be known by way of His choosing. That doesn't mean he does not exist.



Christianity is not about being different from everyone else. That's elitism. It's about a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and Love for humanity at large. With regard to personal failings, I've experienced more liberty to confess my sins and boast in my imperfections to my Christian peers than I would ever feel around my secular ones. because I know my Christian peers will not make value judgments about me because of my human failures, whereas that's almost a REFLEX for the world at large. But in Christ, where sin abounds, grace abounds that much more.

People don't go to a doctor because they are well, they go to the doctor because they are sick. So it doesn't surprise me that Christians include the same cross-section of failures as you find in secular humanity. The difference is, in the life of a saved Christian, there is an acknowledgement of the state of sinfulness (i.e., confession) to God, and a taking of responsibility for it (i.e., repentance) before God, and a willingness to ask God to supernaturally help. Think "remorse". And because of the Love of Jesus, there is supernatural help available, and a progression from hurting to healed. The difference between a Christian and a secular humanist is not that the Christian is without sin, it is that the Christian has been forgiven by God for their sins, and is not to proud to accept whatever supernatural help and blessings the Father can provide, in order to better serve God and humanity.

With regard to your accusation of my being a "cultie", and being insincere about my beliefs, I forgive you. I understand that you do not know me, and if you did, you would (probably) not attack, accuse, or inaccurately generalize me in that way.

Ignore list - added. All these years later I still can't quite believe or FORGIVE the arrogance of this pretentious, LYING religion.