The Key

[Student of Trinity]

I'm sorry, but I do not see how a scientific mind can believe in a benevolent invisible man in the sky ... .

Neither do I. Nor do I see how a scientific mind can believe in the idea that an ape suddenly gave birth to a human being.

The point is they don't. What they believe is something that's a little harder to explain than that, but that makes a great deal more sense than that, too. Creationists who sneer at evolution as being about apes turning into humans are committing the straw man fallacy.

The invisible man in the sky is a straw God.

 

[Out-Ethics]

I put no stock in organized religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. My trust lies in the Lord. Holiness is in personal relationship with God through the Love of Jesus Christ, whose Love in turn leads one to love others, and to protect those who cannot defend themselves, and to example empathy toward a hurting world.

But it only works because the Holy Trinity (including Jesus) is alive and active in the present moment on a very personal basis with those who seek to know and Love Him. He is not some idol which cannot see or hear or respond to the cries of His beloved children when they call Him.

Again it all your thoughts in your mind. It's what you believe and this is the message you are trying to spread. It is no different than any other belief because there is nothing to back it up other than faith. You have chosen to follow this path but others do not share in your beliefs. Again I ask you why is your faith above all others? Why not Buddhism or Judaism? These beliefs have been around far longer than Christianity. Sounds to me like you have elevated yourself over anybody else who doesn't follow your path. Your belief in your God has blinded and imprisoned you and that is sad. But we can argue until the cows come home and neither one of us will change our thoughts on this subject


Why do you think Elron was so keen to deny the existence of Jesus? $cientology had its roots in the mind control and spiritual domination aspects of Aleister Crowleys satanism, of which Hubbard was an early devotee and special fan of the sexual aspects. As such, he became spiritually aware that the only power in the Universe that nullifies satan's claim on sinful humanity is the Blood of Jesus, shed on the Cross for remission of the sins of the world, through unmerited favor and love, so we can be reconciled to our Father in Heaven. Therefore the only way Hubbard could nullify the only threat to the satanic lie of $cientology in the hearts of his followers was to deny that Jesus ever existed, thereby supressing the only sure spiritual remedy to his deception.

You see this at work also in Amway, where there is much mention of God, but no mention of Jesus. Similarly with Freemasonry. It's not a coincidence, folks. It's the work of a very ancient evil spirit known as 'the antichrist spirit'. And $cientology is only one of his playgrounds. His most recent hit was the rise of the Third Reich, and the Holocaust of the Jews by Hitler, who was possessed by this spirit (which is why he went after God's people, who are Jesus' ancestors. Also not a coincidence.)

I'm happy you figured out all the evils in world. Apparently your merciful God was okay with millions dying but I guess that part of the "faith" isn't it? Faith always provide answers that cannot be proved. Looks like an unhappy ending to this movie as according to your scripture millions more will perish. Go God Go!. Yea Jesus!!!

L Ron Hubbard was narcissistic, and I can see how $cientology feeds narcissism. (Homo Novis? Really?) He was also profoundly paranoid, with paranoia being projection of unexpressed hostility one feels for other people inaccurately onto the others one secretly hates, so the effect is to render the paranoiac (quite irrationally) terrified of those he subconsciously hates. This was Rons 'ruin', if you will. In retrospect, I believe $cientology was L. Ron Hubbard's vengeance wreaked upon a world which he secretly, and desperately, feared and hated in his deepest heart of hearts.

Or is it more accurate to say that $cientology was satans vengeance upon the world, wrought through L. Ron Hubbard?

Yeah Hubbard was evil but that has nothing to do with your posts. Your intentions is to spread the good word and gain new recruits. What you fail to realize is that people didn't come into Scientology because of faith but because they thought it was a workable technology. When they found it didn't work as old Ron said it would they left. I do not need a new religion or a new faith. I'm happy with myself, my family and my friends. If you want to believe in God/Jesus go for it. But don't come to me and assume my life is all F'ed up and tell me you have all the answers to life. What damns people more than anything else is saying they have all the answers to life. Makes one blind, deaf and dumb. It is never God or belief that solves the problems in life. It is people using their knowledge, skills and determination to solve the difficult tasks in life. The ability to think for yourselves. This is what many religions, faiths, believes lack because to have free thinkers would mean not able to enslave ones mind. I know you will pray for me because it is what you believe. Have at it!

 

[Lone Star]

It's rather funny that this thread brings back many fond memories I have as a child going to the annual summer Vacation Satanic Bible School.

Oh yes....I remember us kids holding hands and forming a circle around the Pentagram singing Satanic songs and rhymes such as....

The fiery flames of Hell
The fiery flames of Hell
Hi Ho the Merry-O
The fiery flames of Hell....

If we'd been especially evil, Beelzebub himself would rise up from the center of the Pentagram and give us an inspiring anti-sermon.



Good times, Good Times!! We played many games. Instead of "Kill the man with the ball" (a favorite at the time among christian kids), we'd play "Kill the man with the King James Bible".

We had many lessons of course, such as "How to make your Curses stick" and "Blaspheme your way to power and success." Plus we learned how to make special potions for various, ahem, occasions.

Our local Church of Satan we attended had a lot of kids so we'd always get together throughout the year for special occasions. On Halloween dressing up as witches, ghosts and goblins didn't do much for us since we weren't afraid of such things. Instead we'd dress up as Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, the Pope, Jesus, Moses, the Apostles, etc...

We also went Christmas caroling, but we would sing the carols backwards. You'd be surprised at what messages those songs contain backwards! Freaked the hell out of many christians. And sometimes just for the helluvit we'd sing the Stones' Sympathy for the Devil. We had to use our satanic powers to get out of some scrapes doing that, let me tell ya!

Oh yes one summer at Vacation Satanic Bible School we were visited by Anton LeVey's daughter Zeena. Wow!! What a treat that was. So sexy....so hot....so devilish!!

She taught us how to seduce Baptist preacher kids and steal their souls. (It is very easy).

Sadly as I grew up and became an adult I let my relationship with Satan flounder and sort of backslided, otherwise I never would've ended up in Scientology. You see we were taught that both Hubbard and Crowley were wankers and phonies....not true Satanists at all. Let's just say as punishment Satan has banished them both to Christian heaven where they are suffering to this day listening to endless sermons by Jimmy Swaggart and Father Caughlin.

Okay....end of derail. I was just reminiscing and wanted to share!

 

[Out-Ethics]

It's rather funny that this thread brings back many fond memories I have as a child going to the annual summer Vacation Satanic Bible School.

Oh yes....I remember us kids holding hands and forming a circle around the Pentagram singing Satanic songs and rhymes such as....

The fiery flames of Hell
The fiery flames of Hell
Hi Ho the Merry-O
The fiery flames of Hell....

If we'd been especially evil, Beelzebub himself would rise up from the center of the Pentagram and give us an inspiring anti-sermon.



Good times, Good Times!! We played many games. Instead of "Kill the man with the ball" (a favorite at the time among christian kids), we'd play "Kill the man with the King James Bible".

We had many lessons of course, such as "How to make your Curses stick" and "Blaspheme your way to power and success." Plus we learned how to make special potions for various, ahem, occasions.

Our local Church of Satan we attended had a lot of kids so we'd always get together throughout the year for special occasions. On Halloween dressing up as witches, ghosts and goblins didn't do much for us since we weren't afraid of such things. Instead we'd dress up as Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, the Pope, Jesus, Moses, the Apostles, etc...

We also went Christmas caroling, but we would sing the carols backwards. You'd be surprised at what messages those songs contain backwards! Freaked the hell out of many christians. And sometimes just for the helluvit we'd sing the Stones' Sympathy for the Devil. We had to use our satanic powers to get out of some scrapes doing that, let me tell ya!

Oh yes one summer at Vacation Satanic Bible School we were visited by Anton LeVey's daughter Zeena. Wow!! What a treat that was. So sexy....so hot....so devilish!!

She taught us how to seduce Baptist preacher kids and steal their souls. (It is very easy).

Sadly as I grew up and became an adult I let my relationship with Satan flounder and sort of backslided, otherwise I never would've ended up in Scientology. You see we were taught that both Hubbard and Crowley were wankers and phonies....not true Satanists at all. Let's just say as punishment Satan has banished them both to Christian heaven where they are suffering to this day listening to endless sermons by Jimmy Swaggart and Father Caughlin.

Okay....end of derail. I was just reminiscing and wanted to share!

 

[MrNobody]

Put that way, I can see that maybe Brecht had a point. Deciding that the existence of God matters to how one lives is indeed some kind of a theological decision. It may not be exactly the same as deciding that one needs God, but maybe that's just a quibble on my part; maybe it's an important decision, whatever it is.

Uhmm... No? Deciding that the existence of God matters to how one lives is just the automatic (pre-defined?) result that arises in the moment when the question arises. So, IMHO, it's not a real decision - as soon as the question becomes important in one's life (it never was important in mine), there is only one answer, which is that you need a god.

I happen to believe in God,

I can't even tell why that is, but I was almost certain about this from the moment you arrived on this board. I appreciate that you never tried to push your belief on anyone here and as long as it stays that way, I don't see any problem with it.

and that probably does make a difference in my behavior; but I'm not at all sure that it should. I'm not sure that God thinks it should.

Of course I, since I don't believe in God, have absolutely no say in what he might or might not think, but I think it shouldn't matter anyway, because if it does matter, it'd be no longer you speaking, it'd be just some religious scripture speaking through you and in that case, I'd be better off by just reading that scripture myself (which, BTW, I did - more than once).

In fact I rather suspect that God wants people to believe whatever the truth is, and act the same regardless of whether God exists or not. If someone really has no good reason at all to believe in God, then I rather think God would applaud their atheism. If they nonetheless act with courage and compassion, I think God will be more pleased with them than God is with me, whose courage and compassion, even such as they are, are more tinged with self-interest, since I expect that God will help and reward me.

At 1st I just wanted to respond with the words of Smokey Robinson: "I second that emotion."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI_0tQdEA5k

...but then again, it isn't that easy. When I help people, I'd like them to agree to the (usually unspoken) "help deal": "I've helped you now and in return I want you to help others when you find them in serious need of help." That's all I ask for. You, on the other hand, seem to expect some reward from some deity for what you're doing. That, IMHO, makes a difference. It doesn't necessarily make me better than you or vice versa, but it's still a difference.

 

[Purple Rain]

'Rosabel believe,
Not even eternity
Can hold Houdini!'


"Rosabel, believe!"


Through the glass
I'd watch you breathe
("Not even eternity")
Bound and drowned
And paler than you've ever been
("will hold Houdini!")


With your life
The only thing in my mind
We pull you from the water


(Houdini!)


You ("Hou-di-ni")
And I and Rosabel believe

 

[MrNobody]

As you know from science, although a correlation may not be able to prove the causality of a specific deity in that process, neither can the limitations of correlation disprove the causality of deity in the process.
<snip>

Should I ever be forced to accept a deity in my life, I'd probably choose someone like the good ole Bacchus. A deity who's honored best by appreciating music, "wimminfolks", booze and poetry (not necessarily in that order), might suit me just fine. Although, after having read some disgusting posts by a certain wanna-be-poet in another thread, I might be tempted to leave the "poetry-" part out of the equation.

 

[Purple Rain]

Should I ever be forced to accept a deity in my life, I'd probably choose someone like the good ole Bacchus. A deity who's honored best by appreciating music, "wimminfolks", booze and poetry (not necessarily in that order), might suit me just fine. Although, after having read some disgusting posts by a certain wanna-be-poet in another thread, I might be tempted to leave the "poetry-" part out of the equation.

The funniest radio play I ever heard was called "Vintage Gods" and it was about this modern Australian Greek family who were about to lose their home and decided to call on the old gods for help - so the mother was throwing this bacchanalia and the gods had been hanging around Olympus basically unemployed for thousands of years and they get this prayer from this lady and decide to show up to the bacchanalia.

If I was going to accept a deity in my life he/she/it (presumably all powerful) would have skipped the war in heaven shit, the creating of two beings that were deliberately made imperfect (even though the blueprint was supposedly in the image of that perfect deity) and set up to fail knowing they would be sentenced to pain and death - with an especial curse going to the female (oh, not just the ones that did it - every female from then on after! Gee, thanks for that, loving god!!)

And I would worship one that wasn't obsessed with blood - all payments must be in blood. Blood is the currency. Well, you freaking created blood - what the hell is so special about it and why?? It's just a substance YOU made apparently. Also you had your choice of the rules for the game and you CHOSE that.

And I would worship one that just set up the whole lion and lamb business in the first place, would be nice. Either he/she/it is lying about being omnipotent and above all or this other "Satan" being is a serious rival. Also, this god also has merry little chats with this unspeakable evil as he grants permission for hundreds of men, women and children to be slaughtered in the name of a bet - to "test" his servant. That's so perfect love of him/her/it!

And what does "he" need the penis for anyway? At least with Zeus there was some purpose for the appendage....

And I would worship - not only a god without a penis - but a god who wasn't all "Oh, worship me! Worship me! Bow down and worship me!" And as my special reward for a miserable, persecuted life where all men will hate and revile me for his/her/its sake... an eternity of doing nothing else except bowing down and worshiping him/her/it and saying "holy, holy, holy" Well, talk about a damned eternity!! I'd say "Kill me now!" to avoid all the misery and suffering and pain, but then there's the choice between heaven and hell. Heaven sounds less painful if you're okay with being like this godbot zombie thing, but it's a choice of an eternity of boredom and an eternity of torture. Noice.

All in all, what is not to love about this loving god?

 

[Free Being Me]

Monty Python

[video=youtube;Zjz16xjeBAA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA[/video]

 

[Student of Trinity]

If I was going to accept a deity in my life he/she/it (presumably all powerful) would have skipped the war in heaven shit, the creating of two beings that were deliberately made imperfect (even though the blueprint was supposedly in the image of that perfect deity) and set up to fail knowing they would be sentenced to pain and death - with an especial curse going to the female (oh, not just the ones that did it - every female from then on after! Gee, thanks for that, loving god!!)

And I would worship one that wasn't obsessed with blood - all payments must be in blood. Blood is the currency. Well, you freaking created blood - what the hell is so special about it and why?? It's just a substance YOU made apparently. Also you had your choice of the rules for the game and you CHOSE that.

And I would worship one that just set up the whole lion and lamb business in the first place, would be nice. Either he/she/it is lying about being omnipotent and above all or this other "Satan" being is a serious rival. Also, this god also has merry little chats with this unspeakable evil as he grants permission for hundreds of men, women and children to be slaughtered in the name of a bet - to "test" his servant. That's so perfect love of him/her/it!

And what does "he" need the penis for anyway? At least with Zeus there was some purpose for the appendage....

And I would worship - not only a god without a penis - but a god who wasn't all "Oh, worship me! Worship me! Bow down and worship me!" And as my special reward for a miserable, persecuted life where all men will hate and revile me for his/her/its sake... an eternity of doing nothing else except bowing down and worshiping him/her/it and saying "holy, holy, holy" Well, talk about a damned eternity!! I'd say "Kill me now!" to avoid all the misery and suffering and pain, but then there's the choice between heaven and hell. Heaven sounds less painful if you're okay with being like this godbot zombie thing, but it's a choice of an eternity of boredom and an eternity of torture. Noice.

Amen. Preach it, sibling.

Seriously — not as any kind of argument or appeal, just as a by-the-way comment — the above theological analysis is enthusiastically shared by most of the Anglicans and Roman Catholics that I know; and that's a fairly large sample. There are absolutely a large number of Christians whose view of the universe seems utterly idiotic to me. Some of my relatives, for instance. All I'm saying is what only makes sense: we're not all that crazy. I mean, how could we be? That's some serious crazy. If we were all that dumb, we'd have died out a long time ago.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

Monty Python

http://youtu.be/2aJUnltwsqs

 

[Purple Rain]

Amen. Preach it, sibling.

Seriously — not as any kind of argument or appeal, just as a by-the-way comment — the above theological analysis is enthusiastically shared by most of the Anglicans and Roman Catholics that I know; and that's a fairly large sample. There are absolutely a large number of Christians whose view of the universe seems utterly idiotic to me. Some of my relatives, for instance. All I'm saying is what only makes sense: we're not all that crazy. I mean, how could we be? That's some serious crazy. If we were all that dumb, we'd have died out a long time ago.

Taking some time to do the TG1 thing. What do you believe, Student of Trinity?

 

[MrNobody]

Amen. Preach it, sibling.

Seriously — not as any kind of argument or appeal, just as a by-the-way comment — the above theological analysis is enthusiastically shared by most of the Anglicans and Roman Catholics that I know; and that's a fairly large sample. There are absolutely a large number of Christians whose view of the universe seems utterly idiotic to me. Some of my relatives, for instance. All I'm saying is what only makes sense: we're not all that crazy. I mean, how could we be? That's some serious crazy. If we were all that dumb, we'd have died out a long time ago.

I say this a lot more jokingly than out of the will of picking a fight over this, but what about the Waterbear Waterbear
AKA Tardigrade? I believe this little organism will easily outlive anything that humanity could [STRIKE]involve[/STRIKE] evolve into by quite a few millenia and that's without taking into account any form of advanced intelligence involved.

 

[Student of Trinity]

I appreciate that you never tried to push your belief on anyone here ... .

If I catch myself defending omnipotence, I know I'm being stupid.

I do sometimes try to clarify what seem to me to be bad arguments. I believe there are some good reasons for atheism; it's not a foolish conclusion, or a wicked one. But it's as much a shame to go through life as an atheist, just because one has fallen for a silly argument, as it is to go through life as a theist, for the same bad reason. That is perhaps where I'm a bit fanatical. I have only respect for anyone who faces all the issues squarely and calls it as they see it, however they call it; but I have a sort of button, to use the local vernacular, on unwarranted confidence in any conclusion.

 

[Space_Cowboy]

I say this a lot more jokingly than out of the will of picking a fight over this, but what about the Waterbear? I believe this little organism will easily outlive anything that humanity could involve into by quite a few millenia and that's without taking into account any form of advanced intelligence involved.

Actually, this is true! NASA now suspects that the extremophile Tardigrade may have come to Earth aboard a comet or meteor!

 

[Space_Cowboy]

Behold thy enemy. Thy enemy is fear, and thy ally is Love, exemplified in Jesus.

The world runs on fear, not Love, but Jesus said perfect love casts out all fear. In His perfect love, there is hope for the world.


http://youtu.be/4rnJEdDNDsI

 

[Operating DB]

My response to this thread:



Goodbye. I'm outta here!

 

[MrNobody]

Actually, this is true! NASA now suspects that the extremophile Tardigrade may have come to Earth aboard a comet or meteor!

Frankly, I don't care what NASA or anyone suspects. Once some real facts are presented, I might or might not find them interesting, but until then, I'm perfectly happy with the words "I don't know" - in fact a lot happier than I could be with the fake explanation :BS: "It's all in God's plan" or similar non-explanations.

 

[Anonycat]

If I catch myself defending omnipotence, I know I'm being stupid.

I do sometimes try to clarify what seem to me to be bad arguments. I believe there are some good reasons for atheism; it's not a foolish conclusion, or a wicked one. But it's as much a shame to go through life as an atheist, just because one has fallen for a silly argument, as it is to go through life as a theist, for the same bad reason. That is perhaps where I'm a bit fanatical. I have only respect for anyone who faces all the issues squarely and calls it as they see it, however they call it; but I have a sort of button, to use the local vernacular, on unwarranted confidence in any conclusion.

I think that on the Christian perspective, it is widely felt that God demonstrates vast diversity and awe inspiring intricacy and beauty. I feel that this diversity is shown everywhere. This diversity is also intricate and part of humanity, and how we perceive the world around us. I welcome it all, personally. Now my segue.

I also feel that it is the responsibility of humanity to vet (make a careful and critical examination of (something). Synonyms: check, examine, scrutinize, investigate, inspect, look over, screen, assess, evaluate, appraise) something new coming along and claiming to be a religion. It is the duty of people to eliminate harmful cults posing as religion. The diversity - socially - is the responsibility of all of us to keep ourselves and all others safe from dangerous cults.

 

[Free Being Me]

Behold thy enemy. Thy enemy is fear, and thy ally is Love, exemplified in Jesus.

The world runs on fear, not Love, but Jesus said perfect love casts out all fear. In His perfect love, there is hope for the world.


http://youtu.be/4rnJEdDNDsI

Mental illness and religion: Why some people become fanatics
http://www.examiner.com/article/men...on-why-some-people-become-fanatics-slide-show