The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[afaceinthecrowd]

Speaking of interesting quotes relating to the last couple of pages on this thread, I found this also possibly relevant:

I saw some folks that I knew well that “went up the pole”, “wrapped around the pole”, “caved in” and pretty well went “bonkers” after L’s Auditing…not a pretty sight. The repairs “smoothed them out” but, even then, they were not what I would call a “Valuable Final Product”.

There’s been a lot of stuff posted here and there regarding deleterious results on solo knots…I’ll bet the real “Story” behind the “L’s” is at least similar and possibly worse.

Interesting post, Leon, thank you. Apparently everyone can be the “Greatest Thetan in the Universe” as long as they keep their mouth shut about it. WTF? “Get your L’s and be the first person on your block to rule the Universe!”

I glean from Leon’s post that perhaps the “mechanism” referred to may have something to do with confusions between one’s own universe and the other universes.

Most of the folks that got the “L’s” when I was at Flag I think were pretty much looking for 3 things from it:

1. To be more “Powerful and Awesome (OT)”.
2. To be “Exterior with Full Perception”.
3. To move up “The Bridge” faster, easier.

Ostensibly the “L’s” were from “Upper OT Sections Research above OT 8”…OT Sections that apparently do not exist or that the “Research Notes” are nonsensical or undecipherable.

I was around a large number of “L’s” completions and, overall, I was not all that impressed and, in some cases, shocked. A large number of the original "L's" completions, when El Ron was C/Sing them, were the first OEC/FEBC crop...a large number of them bombed not long afterwards. El Ron was always looking for, and claiming to have found, “The Magic Elixir”…the “L’s”, IMO, are just another part of the litany.

If there’s anyone out there reading this thread that did an L, or all three, I’d love to hear your take on this.

Face

 

[lkwdblds]

I did L11 and did it twice!

Face

I saw some folks that I knew well that “went up the pole”, “wrapped around the pole”, “caved in” and pretty well went “bonkers” after L’s Auditing…not a pretty sight. The repairs “smoothed them out” but, even then, they were not what I would call a “Valuable Final Product”.

There’s been a lot of stuff posted here and there regarding deleterious results on solo knots…I’ll bet the real “Story” behind the “L’s” is at least similar and possibly worse.

Interesting post, Leon, thank you. Apparently everyone can be the “Greatest Thetan in the Universe” as long as they keep their mouth shut about it. WTF? “Get your L’s and be the first person on your block to rule the Universe!”

I glean from Leon’s post that perhaps the “mechanism” referred to may have something to do with confusions between one’s own universe and the other universes. Face

Most of the folks that got the “L’s” when I was at Flag I think were pretty much looking for 3 things from it:

1. To be more “Powerful and Awesome (OT)”.
2. To be “Exterior with Full Perception”.
3. To move up “The Bridge” faster, easier.

Ostensibly the “L’s” were from “Upper OT Sections Research above OT 8”…OT Sections that apparently do not exist or that the “Research Notes” are nonsensical or undecipherable.

I was around a large number of “L’s” completions and, overall, I was not all that impressed and, in some cases, shocked. The a large number of the original "L's" completions, when El Ron was C/Sing them were the first OEC/FEBC crop...a large number of them bombed not long afterwards. El Ron was always looking for, and claiming to have found, “The Magic Elixir”…the “L’s”, IMO, are just another part of the litany.

If there’s anyone out there reading this thread that did an L, or all three, I’d love to hear your take on this.

Face

Face: I paid $22k in 1977 and was supposed to get L11 and L12. $22k then is probably about $100k in today's money. The buggers did not deliver what they promised. I burned up over 30 hours in sec checking and repair of my old auditing and only had a enough money left to get L11. I was delivered my L11 by Alex Sibersky. I do not remember much about it, I know I did not have any huge blow downs or huge cognitions. This was one year before NOTs came out so no NOTs techniques were used. Items were found using lists or just looking around one's space and things were made to vanish using date and locate techniques. BTW, I thought Alex was an excellent auditor, it was a pleasure to be audited by him and we had a real team spirit going. Afterwards, I did notice that my space was quieter and that there was not as much background noise going on. That basically was my EP, a quiter space, less mass in it than before but no big cognitions or change of viewpoints.

When I got home, there was a placebo effect where I perceived I was a super advanced being now, having done L11 but facts were soon to shatter that illusion. Right before leaving for Flag, I had dated a very attractive girl whom I had met on course at ASHO. The date went well and I had big visions of grandeur concerning this woman. The date occurred just a day or two before I left for Flag. I brought her home to an apartment which she shared with her room mate at about 1:00 AM. Her room mate was still awake and as I was leaving, her room mate told her they were invited to another Scn party which was still going strong. My date said she was too tired and was going to bed.

When I got back from Flag, I immediately call this woman to tell her all my wins and her room mate answered and said that she had moved out and was now living with some guy. I inquired deeper and the room mate told me that she got the girl to go to the party when I left and she met a guy there and moved in with him and they were now engaged.

My tone level took a dump and then at my business, the same thing happened. I was on the verge of selling a large deal and told my client I was going on vacation for a month, and when I got back the guy had already signed with someone else. I thought, "this is not supposed to happen, I am L11" but things did not go well for me when I got back. My main win held up, my space was quieter and I recovered from adversity quicker but that was not what I was sold. I was sold that I would greatly lessen my set backs in life and be more causitive and win more and that phenomena did not occur.

I got called back the next Spring by David Light and was told that Alex Sibersky had been declared and Flag was ordering me back to do L11 over at no charge to me. I told him that things had not gone that well since I got back and David said it was probably due to bad auditing by the SP Sibersky. I vehemently disagreed about Alex whom I really liked. I went back in 1978, shortly before NOTs was announced and did L11 over again from scratch. The reads were all different and had less charge on them because Sibersky had run all the really hot buttons. The other auditor was also good and I redid the level with no new major wins but just a clean feeling in my space. When I got back in town two events immediately happened.

First, I met the singing waitress, Joan, with the steady boyfriend in Spain. I dated her for months and nearly won her over from the other guy but in the end she choose him. To me, that was progress, better than what happened the previous year. Also, business picked up and was going well.

Second, NOTs was announced and OT3's were no longer allowed to run R3R which I had been running quite a bit in 1977 and 1978. Now there was a new potential why to explain why I was not getting the wins they were advertising.

My buddy and FSM, Richard Royce called me from Flag and urged me to sell the farm to get my NOTs. His words were, "LRH has done it!!!" NOTs handles everything. One 10 minute NOTs session is more powerful than a 12 1/2 hour intensive of regular auditing. I scraped more money together and returned for NOTs in 1979.

THE L'S SALES & DELIVERY WAS BEING NEGLECTED WHEN NOTS FIRST CAME OUT!

When NOTs first came out, the buzz was that the L's were no longer needed because NOTs handled the stuff that came up on the L's. There was a push in that direction for perhaps a month and then LRH got on the line and said the L's were valuable (probably to Flag's GI) and were still to be pushed and pushed hard and that NOTs did not cover the special super OT material on the L's.

LRH was never one to allow a "Cash Cow" to be slayed. The L's had established a reputation as a super OT type of auditing that transcended normal Grade Chart auditing and LRH was not about to let that Cash Cow die an early death.

Regarding the other L's, several people doing L10 commented to me that they would no longer trust anyone who had not done L10. In looking back, I do not remember anyone just raving about the L's saying the wins were beyond belief and that the L's were the best and most powerful auditing they had ever received. The L's were sold as stemming from super powerful OT research condutcted beyond OT VIII. They were sold as an elite level, a level which would give one Status and this form of marketing the L's proved very successful. L's auditing costed more than other auditing and a higher classed auditor, above Class VIII, was created to deliver the L's. It was and probably still is a successful marketing campaign but as to the wins recieved from the L's, I have never heard great raves being expressed but have never heard any negative carping about them being bad either.
Lakey

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Face

Face: I paid $22k in 1977 and was supposed to get L11 and L12. $22k then is probably about $100k in today's money. The buggers did not deliver what they promised. I burned up over 30 hours in sec checking and repair of my old auditing and only had a enough money left to get L11. I was delivered my L11 by Alex Sibersky. I do not remember much about it, I know I did not have any huge blow downs or huge cognitions. This was one year before NOTs came out so no NOTs techniques were used. Items were found using lists or just looking around one's space and things were made to vanish using date and locate techniques. BTW, I thought Alex was an excellent auditor, it was a pleasure to be audited by him and we had a real team spirit going. Afterwards, I did notice that my space was quieter and that there was not as much background noise going on. That basically was my EP, a quiter space, less mass in it than before but no big cognitions or change of viewpoints.

When I got home, there was a placebo effect where I perceived I was a super advanced being now, having done L11 but facts were soon to shatter that illusion. Right before leaving for Flag, I had dated a very attractive girl whom I had met on course at ASHO. The date went well and I had big visions of grandeur concerning this woman. The date occurred just a day or two before I left for Flag. I brought her home to an apartment which she shared with her room mate at about 1:00 AM. Her room mate was still awake and as I was leaving, her room mate told her they were invited to another Scn party which was still going strong. My date said she was too tired and was going to bed.

When I got back from Flag, I immediately call this woman to tell her all my wins and her room mate answered and said that she had moved out and was now living with some guy. I inquired deeper and the room mate told me that she got the girl to go to the party when I left and she met a guy there and moved in with him and were now engaged.

My tone level took a dump and then at my business, the same thing happened. I was on the verge of selling a large deal and told my client I was going on vacation for a month, and when I got back the guy had already signed with someone else. I thought, "this is not supposed to happen, I am L11" but things did not go well for me when I got back. My main win held up, my space was quieter and I recovered from adversity quicker but that was not what I was sold. I was sold that I would greatly lessen my set backs in life and be more causitive and win more and that phenomena did not occur.

I got called back the next Spring by David Light and was told that Alex Sibersky had been declared and Flag was ordering me back to do L11 over at no charge to me. I told him that things had not gone that well since I got back and David said it was probably due to bad auditing by the SP Sibersky. I vehemently disagreed about Alex whom I really liked. I went back in 1978, shortly before NOTs was announced and did L11 over again from scratch. The reads were all different and had less charge on them because Sibersky had run all the really hot buttons. The other auditor was also good and I redid the level with no new major wins but just a clean feeling in my space. When I got back in town two events immediately happened.

First, I met the singing waitress, Joan, with the steady boyfriend in Spain. I dated her for months and nearly won her over from the other guy but in the end she choose him. To me, that was progress, better than what happened the previous year. Also, business picked up and was going well.

Second, NOTs was announced and OT3's were no longer allowed to run R3R which I had been running quite a bit in 1977 and 1978. Now there was a new potential why to explain why I was not getting the wins they were advertising.

My buddy and FSM, Richard Royce called me from Flag and urged me to sell the farm to get my NOTs. His words were, "LRH has done it!!!" NOTs handles everything. One 10 minute NOTs session is more powerful than a 12 1/2 hour intensive of regular auditing. I scraped more money together and returned for NOTs in 1979.

THE L'S SALES & DELIVERY WAS BEING NEGLECTED WHEN NOTS FIRST CAME OUT!

When NOTs first came out, the buzz was that the L's were no longer needed because NOTs handled the stuff that came up on the L's. There was a push in that direction for perhaps a month and then LRH got on the line and said the L's were valuable (probably to Flag's GI) and were still to be pushed and pushed hard and that NOTs did not cover the special super OT material on the L's.

LRH was never one to allow a "Cash Cow" to be slayed. The L's had established a reputation as a super OT type of auditing that transcended normal Grade Chart auditing and LRH was not about to let that Cash Cow die an early death.

Regarding the other L's, several people doing L10 commented to me that they would no longer trust anyone who had not done L10. In looking back, I do not remember anyone just raving about the L's saying the wins were beyond belief and that the L's were the best and most powerful auditing they had ever received. The L's were sold as stemming from super powerful OT research condutcted beyond OT VIII. They were sold as an elite level, a level which would give one Status and this form of marketing the L's proved very successful. L's auditing costed more than other auditing and a higher classed auditor, above Class VIII, was created to deliver the L's. It was and probably still is a successful marketing campaign but as to the wins recieved from the L's, I have never heard great raves being expressed but have never heard any negative carping about them being bad either.
Lakey

There was plenty of carping, but the public never heard about it…you know as well as I do that carping publicly would, eventually, get one’s brains blown out.

Here's an interesting tidbit for you, Lakey.

David Light got real f'd up on L12 in the mid '70's. For years, including the ones that you were getting your L and L repair, Light would absolutely crater, they'd take him in and "patch" him up and he'd be fine for awhile and then crater again.

Point is, when Light was regin' you to get your L repaired, he knew damn well that for years they hadn't been able to permanently fix his.

Face

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Most of the folks that got the “L’s” when I was at Flag I think were pretty much looking for 3 things from it:

1. To be more “Powerful and Awesome (OT)”.
2. To be “Exterior with Full Perception”.
3. To move up “The Bridge” faster, easier.

This pretty much summarizes to me the "Three Things Most Scientologists Think They Will Get Out of Scientology and Why They Are Often Subsequently Disappointed".

I consider them "false goals". No question they are encouraged by LRH's many misleading marketing claims & there continued hard sell within the climate of the church. It's a shame really, as I have always considered there to be excellent real benefits from scientology readily available as long as the distraction of "superpowers" is avoided.

In fact if the focus is on "exteriorization" & "power" in a mental/spiritual sense rather than on some sort of "fantastic superhuman" then in a real sense all three of the above are attainable. The mistake is confusing the reality of spiritual exteriorization with having the powers of the invisible man, or some other such "superpower". The chief failing of scientology was in its deliberate reliance on a misleading marketing program. This was done in order to excite interest and boom income, but it built false expectations and hidden agendas. These ultimately were not achieved, thereby creating a great deal of animosity & bpc.

Hubbard & the Co$ failed to "always deliver what is promised". The failure was in the promises.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

So, people who do the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge are not smarter than ordinary people, not happier than ordinary people, not healthier than ordinary people, so why do they do the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge? Answer: The reason for doing the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge is to have done the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

So, people who do the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge are not smarter than ordinary people, not happier than ordinary people, not healthier than ordinary people, so why do they do the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge? Answer: The reason for doing the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge is to have done the Scientology (LRH/Xenu) Bridge.

That...and the hope that someday you can fly like Peter Pan and see through walls like Superman.

 

[thetanic]

This pretty much summarizes to me the "Three Things Most Scientologists Think They Will Get Out of Scientology and Why They Are Often Subsequently Disappointed".

I consider them "false goals". No question they are encouraged by LRH's many misleading marketing claims & there continued hard sell within the climate of the church. It's a shame really, as I have always considered there to be excellent real benefits from scientology readily available as long as the distraction of "superpowers" is avoided.

[...]

Hubbard & the Co$ failed to "always deliver what is promised". The failure was in the promises.

Even my mother, who was always rabidly anti-Scn (but smart enough not to say so while I was in) will concede that it did me a lot of good. It made me a more confident and outgoing person, which didn't immediately translate into being happier. It did eventually, though.

 

[FoTi]

I never did the L's but wanted to for a long time until I saw a few of my friends do them. But I did have an L's auditor ..... a Class XII at Flag and she was quite good.

As far as the people that I knew that did the L's....

one who did L10 said that as far as doing things or getting things done, life was now almost too easy.......that sounded good to me.

another one had done an L and had recently come off the RPF having done OTIII while on the RPF - he came out of the SO with no money whatsover and within a couple of months had a thriving business and sent his wife to Flag for auditing - I was impressed and thought it was because he'd done an L......

another friend did all 3 L's, was at Flag for a long, long time and when she finally went home, she got in a bad car wreck and went back to Flag for repairs on her L's - she never originated any wins from doing them, so I asked her for some - she hemmed and hawed and finally said something (it was so mundane that I can't even remember what it was) and I was quite disappointed in what she had to say......

another friend did the L's which he said was supposed to give him a new life and he said he wished he had his old life back again.......

another gal did L11 and later came to work where I was working - she waltzed into the office (a wog office) and announced to those around that she was an L11 and proceeded to try to run the place and people thought she was really off the wall and a bit loopy - it was sort of embarassing to the other Scientologists who worked there - she didn't last there long and I could see the confusion she was experiencing because nobody was buying her "authority", and she couldn't understand why her postulates weren't working - it was kind of sad to watch her and what she was experiencing and she'd sold her house to do that L and no longer had a home or the income that she had before - it looked to me like she took a step down from where she was before she did L11 and she appeared to be less sane as well.....

I also had a roommate for a couple of years that had done the L's - she was no powerhouse -poor health, financially poor, just barely making enough money to eat and pay a little rent - I couldn't see any evidence of what was promoted about the L's and she never originated any wins that she had from doing them - and she died a miserable death years later. I couldn't see that she was very much cause over her own life as a result of doing the Ls - she was also New OTV....

another fellow I knew who was an attorney went to Flag and did all the L's - the result or EP of doing his L's was that he decided his purpose was to open a dance studio for ballroom dancing - that was his win and he was quite happy about it. - - all 3 L's and that was the result? Sheesh - I couldn't believe it.

I also met a lady at Flag when I was waiting for the MAA outside of the Ethics Office and she was waiting as well....she had done the L's and went home and started thinking about committing suicide, so she came back to Flag for some repair. I couldn't understand why they had her sitting in Ethics...why weren't they repairing her auditing? This was an incident that scared me about maybe doing the Ls....it seemed to me that the Ls could be a little dangerous to one's well being.

After seeing the results from these people doing the L's, I sort of lost interest in doing the L's, 'cause I didn't see any results from these people doing the L's like was in the promotion from Flag....I didn't see any powerhouses as a result.....all I saw was that people spent a lot of money and didn't get a whole lot out of it and nobody was raving about how great the L's were.

Seeing what happened to Lisa McPherson also put a damper on any idea I ever had of doing the L's.....they looked like they could be kind of dangerous and I wasn't game to take a chance on doing the Ls after seeing what happened to her.

 

[Veda]

That...and the hope that someday you can fly like Peter Pan and see through walls like Superman.

A Scientology PR person would say that someone with that expectation has a "hidden standard," and throw some weasel-words at the person - something such as, "Scientology delivers spiritual exteriorization," but does not deliver the kind of exteriorization that allows a person to be exterior with perception of the physical universe. (This is usually not told to the person until he's done the OT levels or the Ls.)

This, despite Out Of Body Experience - which involves being out of the body with perception of the physical universe - occurring in non-Scientologists.

As for "seeing through walls," don't you realize that was only a metaphor? You literal minded wog and/or SP you!

"Exteriorization with Full Perception" thread: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=430680&postcount=65

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

A Scientology PR person would say that someone with that expectation has a "hidden standard," and throw some weasel-words at the person - something such as, "Scientology delivers spiritual exteriorization," but does not deliver the kind of exteriorization that allows a person to be exterior with perception of the physical universe. (This is usually not told to the person until he's done the OT levels or the Ls.)

This, despite, Out Of Body Experience - which involves being out of the body with perception of the physical universe - occurring in non-Scientologists.

As for "seeing through walls," don't you realize that was only a metaphor? You literal minded wog and/or SP you!

Finally, finally someone gives me the right item.

Face

 

[Veda]

Even my mother, who was always rabidly anti-Scn (but smart enough not to say so while I was in) will concede that it did me a lot of good. It made me a more confident and outgoing person, which didn't immediately translate into being happier. It did eventually, though.

That sounds like a comm course result.

Or is that the EP of OT 7 or OT 8?

I think the point is that subjecting another, or oneself, to the Hubbardian mind-grope of the LRH/Xenu Bridge, for that end result, is a bad trade off.

 

[thetanic]

another fellow I knew who was an attorney went to Flag and did all the L's - the result or EP of doing his L's was that he decided his purpose was to open a dance studio for ballroom dancing - that was his win and he was quite happy about it. - - all 3 L's and that was the result? Sheesh - I couldn't believe it.

Actually, this sounds like the most interesting win of all. He probably had been doing what he thought he was supposed to do. I hope he was happy (though with the debt he was likely saddled with, perhaps it wouldn't have worked out).

The woman who came back and announced she was L11 sounds to me like Leon's comment incarnate.

Most of the rest -- sad.

 

[thetanic]

As for "seeing through walls," don't you realize that was only a metaphor? You literal minded wog and/or SP you!

That's not the wall you're seeing through.

(Thanks, that post was wonderful.)

 

[thetanic]

That sounds like a comm course result.

Or is that the EP of OT 7 or OT 8?

I think the point is that subjecting another, or oneself, to the Hubbardian mind-grope of the LRH/Xenu Bridge, for that end result, is a bad trade off.

Actually, my mom was most impressed by the changes I made on the Grades, even though I never finished them.

 

[Veda]

Actually, my mom was most impressed by the changes I made on the Grades, even though I never finished them.

That's about right.

A little bit of Scientology can sometimes be a good thing; a lot, usually not.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

FoTi…Thank you for your comprehensive post re: folks doing “L’s”.

El Ron “set up” every “L’s” PC, Auditor and C/S with Hisself’s “Welcome to the Flag Internship” taped lecture. On that tape El Ron says that when Hisself was C/Sing the “L’s” (I think it was L12 or L10 specifically) he wouldn’t let a PC off the Ship unless they were exterior with full perception and able to maintain it.

There’s a few other lectures where Hisself said some other stuff re: the “L’s”, a lot of which has been used in the “L’s” promo for years.

The Flag Reges had a field day using these El Ron quotes to get folks willing to take disastrous risks to pay for and get on the “L’s”. They also knew that often times the TE’s would change when folks got to Flag and that was gonna mean more bucks for Set Up’s, etc.

As I said before on this thread, the inferred "Hidden Standards" in this "Promo" drove Mayo batty. Here was a “Magic Elixir” quote (along with others not quite as sweeping) from El Ron that was flat-out not true or achievable and the reges were using it with impunity to get the fish to jump into the barrel so they could shoot them. Mayo sincerely wanted to help people and advance their cases, but the whole system was set up to get the dough, and when something f’d up, it was up to Tech and Qual to deal with and, ultimately in far too may cases, Ethics.

Face

 

[Leon]

For the record, the only L that I did was L-9, which wasthe research phase of what became L-11. It took one three-hour session from Lisa Klingvall and that was it. I remember virtually nothing of the session itself but I have never been the same again. It was just perfect for me.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

video funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc8tPTVBRSc

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

For the record, the only L that I did was L-9, which wasthe research phase of what became L-11. It took one three-hour session from Lisa Klingvall and that was it. I remember virtually nothing of the session itself but I have never been the same again. It was just perfect for me

Interesting comment, Leon.

The best stuff…and it was good…that I had was some of the “Old” stuff in the mid to late ‘60’s and some things I was one of the “guinea pigs” on. The final issued Rnds were much, much longer and, from what I saw, were not getting the results that some of us “guinea pigs” got.:confused2:

Face

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Thank You!

Carl Rogers came up with it before Hubbard, and probably is where he stole it from.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person-centered_therapy:

Person-centered therapy (PCT) is also known as person-centered psychotherapy, client-centered therapy and Rogerian psychotherapy. PCT is a form of talk-psychotherapy developed by psychologist Carl Rogers in the 1940s and 1950s. It's one of the most widely used models in mental health and psychotherapy. In this technique, therapists create a comfortable, non-judgmental environment by demonstrating congruence (genuineness), empathy, and unconditional positive regard toward their patients while using a non-directive approach. This aids patients in finding their own solutions to their problems.​

Rogerian therapy is one of my (free) RoboCounsellor modules. I've made it as close to the original as I can get it within the Robot counselling paradigm. It works fairly well, but like the version using a more expensive live practitioner it works better on relatively heavily charged items.

Paul

Thank you for that, Paul. All of this fits under the bigger tent of "Humanistic Psychology", which is what I was trained in. (Outing myself a little more on Lakey's thread!)

Following is a brief exerpt from Wikipedia, just to further educate and enlighten our readers a little, especially for those lurkers who may still be scared or haters of "Psychs".

From Wikipedia:

"Counseling and Therapy-
Humanistic psychology includes several approaches to counseling and therapy. Among the earliest approaches we find the developmental theory of Abraham Maslow, emphazising a hierarchy of needs and motivations; the existential psychology of Rollo May acknowledging human choice and the tragic aspects of human existence; and the person-centered or client-centered therapy of Carl Rogers, which is centered on the clients' capacity for self-direction and understanding of his/her own development.[3]

Other approaches to humanistic counseling and therapy include Gestalt therapy, humanistic psychotherapy, depth therapy, holistic health, encounter groups, sensitivity training, marital and family therapies, body work, and the existential psychotherapy of Medard Boss.[2] Existential-integrative psychotherapy, developed by Kirk Schneider (2008), is a relatively new development within humanistic and existential therapy.

Self-help is also included in humanistic psychology: Sheila Ernst and Lucy Goodison have described using some of the main humanistic approaches in self-help groups.[4][citation needed] Co-counselling, which is a purely self-help approach, is regarded as coming within humanistic psychology (see John Rowan's Guide to Humanistic Psychology). Humanistic theory has had a strong influence on other forms of popular therapy, including Harvey Jackins' Re-evaluation Counselling and the work of Carl Rogers.

Humanistic psychology tends to look beyond the medical model of psychology in order to open up a nonpathologizing view of the person.[3] This usually implies that the therapist downplays the pathological aspects of a person's life in favour of the healthy aspects. A key ingredient in this approach is the meeting between therapist and client and the possibilities for dialogue. The aim of much humanistic therapy is to help the client approach a stronger and more healthy sense of self, also called self-actualization.[5] All this is part of humanistic psychology's motivation to be a science of human experience, focusing on the actual lived experience of persons."[2]