The Media Are Afraid to Report What Mike & Marty are Telling Them!

Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
This is an interesting discussion.

The following excerpt is from one of my favorite sources about analysis (Dick Heuer, The Psychology of Analysis available online at https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...sychology-of-intelligence-analysis/art14.html).

The gist is that we tend to understand that many of our own actions are dependent on the circumstances in which we find ourselves and the external pressures acting on us. But we tend to ascribe the source of others' actions and decisions as primarily due to their internal causes of behavior like personality, character, morals, ethical standards, etc.
That is fascinating. Thanks!
 

Wisened One

Crusader
Hi WO,


the trouble is that this is merely wishful thinking.

What in Marty or Mike's history would suggest that they have EVER done anything honorable as regards scientology or scientologists? I am puzzled why you would assume that they are doing good things?

That's probably what I'm doing. :yes:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
People will be given an alternative way to exist, rather than as a gushing sycophant to those who are manipulating and lying to them for their own ends.

Dude...I haven't got a clue, what's up?

Some time ago you were raging about Rinder's despicable acts vs you and your father. I thought it sounded righteous and quite sane on your part to feel that way.

Then, not long ago you were on some other campaign that sounded like the Golden Age of Alonzo Love and I was a bit surprised that you seemed to forget about those earlier Rinder episodes. But....I made some comment about Rathbun and you "went off" and threw down some post asking me "WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING NASTY?" I had to laugh and shake my head at that one, wondering if you were joking--considering your own history of comments on people like Rinder.

Now, today you are back to agreeing with me that Rathbun is manipulating and lying for his own ends?

Dude, can you pick a side and stick with it? :D
 
Dude...I haven't got a clue, what's up?

Some time ago you were raging about Rinder's despicable acts vs you and your father. I thought it sounded righteous and quite sane on your part to feel that way.

Then, not long ago you were on some other campaign that sounded like the Golden Age of Alonzo Love and I was a bit surprised that you seemed to forget about those earlier Rinder episodes. But....I made some comment about Rathbun and you "went off" and threw down some post asking me "WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING NASTY?" I had to laugh and shake my head at that one, wondering if you were joking--considering your own history of comments on people like Rinder.

Now, today you are back to agreeing with me that Rathbun is manipulating and lying for his own ends?

Dude, can you pick a side and stick with it? :D

My guess is that Alonzo did what he always does, he took a sincere look at both sides before he came to a final judgment.

And even then he keeps re-examining his positions.

The guy is the real deal.

the Anabaptist Jacques
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Dude...I haven't got a clue, what's up?

Some time ago you were raging about Rinder's despicable acts vs you and your father. I thought it sounded righteous and quite sane on your part to feel that way.

Then, not long ago you were on some other campaign that sounded like the Golden Age of Alonzo Love and I was a bit surprised that you seemed to forget about those earlier Rinder episodes. But....I made some comment about Rathbun and you "went off" and threw down some post asking me "WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BE SO FUCKING NASTY?" I had to laugh and shake my head at that one, wondering if you were joking--considering your own history of comments on people like Rinder.

Now, today you are back to agreeing with me that Rathbun is manipulating and lying for his own ends?

Dude, can you pick a side and stick with it? :D

That particular nasty comment I made had to do with your treatment of Geir Isene.

Geir is not Marty or Mike.

Geir is very different.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
My guess is that Alonzo did what he always does, he took a sincere look at both sides before he came to a final judgment.

And even then he keeps re-examining his positions.

The guy is the real deal.

It's cool with me whatever he is saying as long as I have enough time to clay demo it before he changes his mind.

Plus, in case I decide to get a PTS Rundown, I need to know whether he is antagonistic to me or not. :)
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
That particular nasty comment I made had to do with your treatment of Geir Isene.

Geir is not Marty or Mike.

Geir is very different.

Oh yeah, it was Geir.

Sometimes I get Ron's messengers confused.



EDIT ADDED:

thought about it some more and wondered this-------

You are saying Geir is not Marty or Mike. Agreed. I never thought he was.

Today you said:

People will be given an alternative way to exist, rather than as a gushing sycophant to those who are manipulating and lying to them for their own ends.


I share that opinon.

But, as much of a nice dude as Geir is, what do you think about him PROMOTING people like Hubbard or Rathbun who "....are manipulating and lying to (people) for their own ends" ?

Just cuz someone is a "nice dude" I still think promoting people into the clutches of con men & criminals sucks.
 
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Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Oh yeah, it was Geir.

Sometimes I get Ron's messengers confused.

I *do* thin Geir is 'different'. The difference is that Geir is *ignorant* of much of the worst of Scientology. It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.

A reasonable or rational or honest person would *examine* the facts of an organization or philosophy he supports, but, Geir *knows* that to do so would undercut his support, so, he avoids it.

Marty and Mike already know the facts. They're lying outright as a political means. In their case it's *not* about the 'Scientology Conditioning' in *knowing* about the evil that Scientology both promotes and commits. It's not about them 'getting out of the Cult mindset' or recovering.

Because, they *know* about the bad, because they did it. They were right there. Where the Cult mindset comes in for them, and, it does, and they are indeed brainwashed dupes, but, their conditioning is that, even knowing the evil from personal experience, they can *justify* it to themselves.

Just like they can justify lying now; because it's for a 'good cause'.

Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.

Ah yes, the gushers in Martyland, pouring out their high-pressure crude into the open Gulf. The valiant ESMBers are pouring on the dispersant Cultexit so the effluent is watered down some, but it is still polluting the environment.

Paul
 
I *do* thin Geir is 'different'. The difference is that Geir is *ignorant* of much of the worst of Scientology. It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.

A reasonable or rational or honest person would *examine* the facts of an organization or philosophy he supports, but, Geir *knows* that to do so would undercut his support, so, he avoids it.

Marty and Mike already know the facts. They're lying outright as a political means. In their case it's *not* about the 'Scientology Conditioning' in *knowing* about the evil that Scientology both promotes and commits. It's not about them 'getting out of the Cult mindset' or recovering.

Because, they *know* about the bad, because they did it. They were right there. Where the Cult mindset comes in for them, and, it does, and they are indeed brainwashed dupes, but, their conditioning is that, even knowing the evil from personal experience, they can *justify* it to themselves.

Just like they can justify lying now; because it's for a 'good cause'.

Zinj

Nice assessment.

The whole thing is like a historical epic.

Geir is like an Oedipus character in a Greek Tragedy.

And Rathbun is a modern Alcibiades.

And Rinder is the epitome of the banality of evil.

Amazing.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Ah yes, the gushers in Martyland, pouring out their high-pressure crude into the open Gulf. The valiant ESMBers are pouring on the dispersant Cultexit so the effluent is watered down some, but it is still polluting the environment.

Paul

The metaphor seems a little hinky Paul :)

Possibly some ESMBers or Marty/Mike supporters are doing so in the sense of saying that, even if it's crap, it's good crap if it gets people 'out'. Is that what you mean by watering down the effluent with Cultexit?

Personally, I just want to keep pointing out the pollution until the people with the tools to shut it down do their job. Diluting it with rosewater and calling it 'new and improved' isn't gonna make it.

Zinj
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Yeah, it was pretty hinky. Once you had used the word "gushers" I couldn't resist it. As for deeper meaning, forget it — it would be contrived.

Paul
 

Wisened One

Crusader
I *do* thin Geir is 'different'. The difference is that Geir is *ignorant* of much of the worst of Scientology. It's a willful ignorance and a culpable ignorance and a *convenient* ignorance that allows him to maintain an unwarranted positive opinion of Scientology and, to that extent, it's an ignorance common to many/most of the poor gushers in Martyland.

A reasonable or rational or honest person would *examine* the facts of an organization or philosophy he supports, but, Geir *knows* that to do so would undercut his support, so, he avoids it.

Marty and Mike already know the facts. They're lying outright as a political means. In their case it's *not* about the 'Scientology Conditioning' in *knowing* about the evil that Scientology both promotes and commits. It's not about them 'getting out of the Cult mindset' or recovering.

Because, they *know* about the bad, because they did it. They were right there. Where the Cult mindset comes in for them, and, it does, and they are indeed brainwashed dupes, but, their conditioning is that, even knowing the evil from personal experience, they can *justify* it to themselves.

Just like they can justify lying now; because it's for a 'good cause'.

Zinj

Really good post, Zinj. Thank you! :yes:

Call me very naive and gullible...

But....look someone do this for me (AGAIN): Paint me a picture of what Marty and Mike SHOULD be doing IF they were REALLY sorry for all they'd done to others in scn, etc. Maybe I'll understand this all better (for a second before I forget it all again or something). :sadsigh:
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Oh yeah, it was Geir.

Sometimes I get Ron's messengers confused.



EDIT ADDED:

thought about it some more and wondered this-------

You are saying Geir is not Marty or Mike. Agreed. I never thought he was.

Today you said:

People will be given an alternative way to exist, rather than as a gushing sycophant to those who are manipulating and lying to them for their own ends.


I share that opinon.

But, as much of a nice dude as Geir is, what do you think about him PROMOTING people like Hubbard or Rathbun who "....are manipulating and lying to (people) for their own ends" ?

Just cuz someone is a "nice dude" I still think promoting people into the clutches of con men & criminals sucks.

Gier and others like him, not like David Miscavige, Marty or Mike, "promote", as in talk favorably about Scientology, because it is their chosen religion.

I don't know what to do besides continuing to make factual information available to them that breaks down the information control of the cult and gives them the opportunity to start thinking again.

I've watched Geir, on his own, make huge progress toward getting out of the cult mindset. And I've seen him come up with very positive solutions to getting rid of the abuse in Scientology through his open source Scientology, for instance.

If a scientologist can demonstrate that they can confront alternative information, that they can understand it, and if they can show some kind of thinking senior to "Scientology Works! And You're an SP!" then I usually stop feeling terrified for them and give them a pass.

A person has a right to his own religious belief. And as long as they are not fairgaming people, or destroying families, or anything else - and many Scientologists have never and would never engage in that - then I believe that they should be recognized by me as a Scientologist.

There is a point where I decide that they are truly a Scientologist by their own choice and it's okay by me that they are.
 
Nice assessment.

The whole thing is like a historical epic.

Geir is like an Oedipus character in a Greek Tragedy.

And Rathbun is a modern Alcibiades.

WTF? :omg:

From my perspective you make some mighty odd classical allusions, TAJ. Geir as Oedipus? Rathbun as Alcibiades? Where did you get your classical background? Marvel Comics?

Alcibiades was one of the most naturally gifted leaders the Athenian upper classes ever produced. He was far & away superior in every quality which Attic society of the time admired and accordingly much the best of all the "kaloi kai agathoi". Socrates was a friend, mentor, and great admirer of his due expressly to his admirable qualities.

I had no idea you held Rathbun in such a high regard. :eyeroll:

Similarly, I fail to see any way in which Geir qualifies as either "oedipal" or "tragic". He could more easily be termed "Olympian" or "heroic". I think that of late you have been allowing your "poetic license" to roam a little too freely. :yes:


Mark A. Baker
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Geir's a 'tragic figure' in that his heart appears to be in the right place, but, his clutch slips and he can't raise the integrity to honestly examine the workings of his 'chosen religion'.

That may change someday.

Zinj
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
Geir's a 'tragic figure' in that his heart appears to be in the right place, but, his clutch slips and he can't raise the integrity to honestly examine the workings of his 'chosen religion'.

That may change someday.

Zinj

I think it will. I think Geir has a real chance of making it out of the mindset. I'm rooting for him.
 
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