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The Phoenix Lectures

Discussion in 'Scientology Technology' started by Clay Pigeon, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Ironically, you are trying to prove that Scientology WORKS by giving reasons that DON'T WORK.

    1. I mentioned that despite your having spent appx. 40 years in Scientology promoting Hubbard's tech, " never actually studied the auditing tech and advanced up the training side of the Grade Chart."

    You replied:​
    a) 40 years "on the bridge" but you only completed a beginner's level auditor course (NED) that only takes 3 weeks. Per the tech that you are promoting, this could only happen if you had "crashing misunderstoods".​
    b) Although you "blew" from the entire auditor training side of the Grade Chart to Class XII--never even making it up to Level 0--you nonetheless allude to some esoteric "auditor training" that did not actually exist in any Scientology training academy worldwide. This is the same statusy high-level, do-it-yourself training claimed by noted nut Marty Rathbun. In fact, it's the same statusy certification fraud Hubbard used when he claimed to be a "doctor" and a "nuclear physicist". Your training, you proudly admit, consisted of having "studied all the grades"--which would have consisted of studying HUNDREDS of PABs/HCOBS and HUNDREDS of recorded audio lectures (SHSBC) which you assuredly did not do. And even if you had looked at those issues, you did not do it in an actual course room where you were required to pass tests/drills which revealed if you even understood one thing you "studied".​
    c) It now gets way weirder. You attempt to prove your training bona fides by promoting that you were "exposed to conversations re tech with those highly trained including class XIIs". So in 40 years of Scientology making the able (you) more able, you were only "able" to do eavesdropping?​

    CONCLUSION: You attempt to disprove that you "never actually ...advanced up the training side of the Grade Chart" by confirming that you never actually advanced up the training side of the grade chart.

    2. You respond to a parody auditing command ("what would have to happen for you to know that Scientology didn't work?") by stating that it is "...impossible for me to know that it can't work".
    CONCLUSION: Exactly. That's why you need to be standardly run on the command--requiring you to answer the auditing question---rather than trying to debate it.

    4. You posed a profound philosophical question which you were (apparently) unable to answer ("If the many schools of psychotherapy have some workability why not Scn?"). Here is the answer: Many schools of psychotherapy do not contain Gorilla Goal Implants, Intergalactic DC-8s, Xenuphobia and OT Miracles-On-Demand.
    CONCLUSION: Only a Scientology "Clear" with perfect memory would forget that Scientology therapy includes overboarding, chain lockers, rehabilitation gulags, declares, disconnections, bankrupting, fair gaming, stalking, terrorism, ritualistic beatings and a "snarling defense[sup]1[/sup]" of rapists & pedophiles.

    5. Here is a helpful koan for Indie-Scientologists epically struggling with the fact that Scientology doesn't work. If you are a standard auditor, running a standard session, do you standardly indicate your preclear's standard F/N if he standardly cognites with standard VVGIs that "Scientology doesn't work!"?
    CONCLUSION: No Scientologist nor Indie-Scientologist can ever possibly solve this koan. Because the exact moment they understand it, they are no longer a Scientologist or Indie.


    [sup]1[/sup] "snarling defense": This is one of the "responsibilities of leaders" that Hubbard's "scripture" mandates to his fanatical followers, in case he is sued, debunked or arrested.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    Me and My Self and Bill like this.
  2. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    In answer to question five Hoaxie,,,

    Yes I would

    "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him"

    Is not devoid of profound insight

    Your conclusion however is also a corpse
    HelluvaHoax! likes this.
  3. Terril park

    Terril park Sponsor

    Hi Hoaxie,
    You comment I failed in my studies. Not so. Remember
    I did an interneship. However I then took a wrong turn. I
    decided I wanted to be an admin person. So did OEC/FEBC
    which took around a year. In a sense I was successful here
    in that I got hundreds of people into the FZ and out of CO$.
  4. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    LOL, nice!

    It appears that the above 2500 year old Zen koan has recently been updated:

    "If you meet the Buddha on the road, floor it!
    Because that fair-gaming Bluebird motorhome
    gaining on you in your rearview mirror
    can majorly fuck you up!"

    Koan quote provided courtesy of the rap group MWA (Messiahs With Attitude) from their chart-topping new album: "Mettreya Dun Did Betrayah".

  5. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Excellent! If I had undeniable wins on half the Comm-Course and I wanted to promote the benefits of Scientology then do I clearly detail the half that I thought worked and explain why the other half does not or do I advocate a whole lot of nebulous Scientology stuff on the basis of the half of that tiny part of Scientology that I thought worked? All this knowing that by promoting it someone will interpret this as a recommendation that can result in people going all in. How do you teach Scientology half way? Here, read Dianetics - I have blacked out all the unworkable bits. That's not how this works. To get someone into the Tech, they must read LRH's stuff and that is the gateway into organized Scientology. Do you give them some completely rewritten squirreled book? What happens when they figure out it's second rate and Scientology is the source material and they want to get it straight from Source?

    So there are some people who have really done a lot of things who still promote it. There are also a lot of people who have really done a lot of things who say it should not be promoted. On the basis of that 50% of that small sampling of the Bridge do we favor the promoters over those who caution to stay away?

    A lot of Scientologists continue to favor and believe in Scientology like this because their experiences were relatively better or they weren't in a position to see the black heart of the organization as a staff member or have the weight of the organization come down on them as public and they personally didn't see how LRH himself actually inflicted this on people. Many people have taken this attitude to the grave and many more will continue to do so. Does this speak to the nature of people who get into Scientology or the effectiveness Scientology has of locking in it's belief system? We may never know, but the fact is that there are always going to be people like this and to keep on going Scientology only needs to find that subset of the population.

    We have these same conversation over and over - there are good bits! Yes, maybe, if you are a gambler. What is interesting is this phenomena of people willing to let other people take the risks on that bet. There is only one way to benefit 100% from Scientology and that is if you want to know how to manipulate people and operate like a mafia in a free society.
    Me and My Self likes this.
  6. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Aha! You did the OEC!

    So then you really DID do the auditor training side of Ron's grade chart up to Class XII!

    I stand corrected. LOL

  7. EZ Linus

    EZ Linus Cleared Tomato

    I am so sorry to hear this and there may come a day when you will feel bad about it too. Just an FYI. Please use caution. :(
    lotus and TheOriginalBigBlue like this.
  8. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    Are you admitting that the OEC/FEBC was a wrong turn because it didn't suit your personal interest or because it was pernicious BS?

    There is a lot of space opera and "thetan" universe stuff interwoven into the management stuff so if we negate the management stuff then that can quickly become a discussion about negating a bunch of the other techie stuff as well.

    Personally. I credit the FEBC with a lot of the ruthless product officering that makes staff a living hell. In Scientology management product officering is always more important than maintaining a sustainable organized activity.

    I'm not so sure that getting people into the FZ is all that laudable. From cult into cult light, hmm.
  9. Clay Pigeon

    Clay Pigeon Gold Meritorious Patron

    Shortly before I joined staff in DC (Summer '72) I was performing in a Magic show in Martha's Vineyard with a New York professional director who had spent some time in Scn. One day he was being audited by a friend and the session bogged down so he said let's take a break for a minute and his auditor agreed. After a while he said I've got it and got back on the cans, Then he said "I'm overrun on Scientology". His auditor (and friend) said "Your needles floating" and off he went.

    And that's the way it was back in the day...
    HelluvaHoax! likes this.
  10. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I don't believe for a single moment that you successfully did that course (and presumably the OEC/FEBC internships to a pass) in just a year ... can you prove it?
  11. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Yeah but ... 45 years later the poor man is STILL being chased down ... they phone him every ten minutes Birdie, he gets 46,000 pieces of junk mail every month and they turn up WITH IMPORTANT LOOKING CLIPBOARDS at his door every other day!

    He's a nervous wreck!
  12. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Well, actually in a way, Terril DID prove that he was a product of the OEC/FEBC.

    Because, he was able to convince duped & failed Scientology marks (who never attained Clear/OT) into duped & failed Indie marks--who once again believed that their "next level will handle it".

    Isn't that the ultimate "ability attained" on admin training?

    The ability to be able to endlessly re-trick
    the same people into being excited
    about the same scam.

  13. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Good point (lol) ... but I'd still like him to prove he actually did them ... because (based on his past posts here for many years) I don't believe it.

    @Terril ... proof please?
    Leland likes this.
  14. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    Terril, I am answering your post a 2nd time because it's a wondrously great showcase for what makes a Scientologist a Scientologist.

    I had commented that you only did one 3 week auditor training course (NED) in 40 years. Thus, you did not do the "AUDITOR TRAINING" side of the grade chart, which goes up to Class XII.

    You answered it with Scientology gimmicks.

    example 1:
    You explain that you really did do the auditor training side of the Bridge by responding that you did OEC/FEBC.

    gimmick(s): Not-Is, Misdirection​

    how it is supposed to work: Someone points out you failed to do the Auditor Training side of the Grade Chart. You respond by noting that you did OEC/FEBC, which are (essentially) sales courses on how to sell non-existent Clear/OT states to people. Suddenly everyone is supposed to get really confused and think that the OEC/FEBC is the Auditor Training side of the "bridge". Hopefully they'll think: "Wow! He did a sales course so he really DID to his training bridge!"​

    example 2:
    You explain that: "I was successful here in that I got hundreds of people into the FZ and out of CO$"

    gimmick(s): The theory of Big-Lies, Big-Wins & Big-Beings! If you claim a miracle so big, a win so big and a beingness so big, it must be true!​

    how it is supposed to work: People hear wins and (like a crucifix vs a vampire) they are repelled back and weakened to the point they don't even have the will to challenge Scientologists' claims.​

    example 3:
    You explain that you really were "successful" because you got hundreds of people into Indie Scientology.

    gimmick(s): Logical fallacy conflating up-statistics with the up-stats known as Homo Novis, Clears & OTs. It's proven, because it's math! Stats! Unprecedented Expansion! Fastest growing religion, on this planet!

    how it is supposed to work: Manipulative inversion of the laws of supply & demand. People hear big numbers and so they they think something good must be happening. Hey, if there are lots of people waiting in line for it, it must be really valuable, I better secure my place in line (i.e. eternity) right now before it's too late.
    Clay Pigeon likes this.
  15. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on

    I don't happen to believe him either.

    Because when pressed into an answer, he quite frequently starts spewing non-sequiturs.

    To wit, he was called on bullshit for claiming that he had done "training". Then through numerous torturous cross-examining, he finally says he did a 3 week course in 40 years. Then when further pressed he offers of OEC/FEBC as proof that he did the TRAINING SIDE of the grade chart that goes up to Class XII.

    His logic goes haywire when asked for specifics on more than half the explanations he gives on ESMB.
  16. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    The mass exodus of people fleeing organized Scientology oppression to the FZ is a reflection of the failure of Scientology. This is supposed to be interpreted as something equivalent to a good thing like the Protestant movement but the origins of Christianity were corrupted whereas the origins of Scientology were corrupt and then made more corrupt so the FZ is an attempt to preserve and honor the original uncorrupted corruption.

    In other words, it is a fail being promoted as a win. LRH would put all their heads on pikes but they think he would appreciate their loyalty to the true tech. If I facilitated the transition of hundreds of people into the FZ, I would probably be strongly emotionally invested in believing that I had done the right thing and that would mean maintaining faith in the tech. If the tech was harmful or bogus then that would be quite an overt.
  17. Free Being Me

    Free Being Me Crusader

    $cientology isn't a psychotherapy and it's certainly doesn't have anything of value that Academics would teach at accredited universities and colleges. You keep trying to equate $cientology with credentialed bonafide peer reviewed subjects which is completely deceptive on your part. Another one of your "acceptable truths" commonly known as a lie to lure people into $cientology. Saying $cientology is a psychotherapy is like saying Heaven's Gate is a taxi service to the stars. lol.

    One of the Big Lies Elcon convinced $cios of is that they are "experts" on mental health therefore perverting their natural desire to help others with ... $cientology. Yuck. If it wasn't for the fact you use ESMB as your own personal cult recruitment center I would laugh at you role-playing your disingenuous cult games pretending to be an "authority" on what amounts to a mind control cult you've lost yourself in. You're promoting an evil cult and the sad part is you're too far gone to realize it.

    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    Leland likes this.
  18. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    What I don't understand about the FZ is how they can say they use "standard LRH tech" yet they don't seem to use half the stuff Hubbard said is necessary such as Sea Org, disconnection, heavy ethics etc etc. Do they think he got it wrong with these things? If so, why do they not think he got it wrong with the rest of the stuff?

    Do the FZ still think the OT levels actually produce any special abilities? Surely they can't believe that scientology can produce OTs if they've read anything about Hubbard's private life?

    I mean I can just about understand someone saying that something they did in scientology made them feel better or cured a minor problem they had because many things can have this effect, not just scientology. But I don't see how someone can escape from the mind control of the CofS yet still believe that Hubbard had found a way to produce Clears and OTs.
    lotus, TheOriginalBigBlue and Bill like this.
  19. George Layton

    George Layton Silver Meritorious Patron

    Because scientology is made to build upon itself. Because the base line of reasoning does not follow the mental processes of the person it is being used on but instead pulls that mental process toward a predefined problem and a predefined solution. Because to use the techniques developed for scientology one must first be taught that hubbard understood and defined the workings of the human mind.

    scientology first has to convince you that it knows what is wrong with you and then once your convinced it makes that wrong right by letting you know that you no longer have the problem it convinced you of in the first place.

    All wins are gained from the loss scientology says you have.
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  20. TheOriginalBigBlue

    TheOriginalBigBlue Gold Meritorious Patron

    No, Scientology is like a sociopath being disheartened that they haven't perfected sociopathy yet. They still worry about what other people think about them, they still feel remorse about things, even if it's remorse that they got caught. So they set out to fix themselves and decide that they can make money and mess with people at the same time. The ultimate joy comes from getting people to mess with themselves and other people - now your sociopathy is self sustaining and has it's own inertia, it has become exponential.

    Some people think the sociopath made great discoveries incident to this whole process. They are still a bit squeamish with the other bits but decide it's still valuable enough to keep around. The FZ is like Hannibal Lecter followers who love chianti but can't stand liver.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017