The Route In.

Boldgirl

Patron Meritorious
I think all the rundowns produce compliance simply by the combination of suggestion + procedures (repeated) with focus on particular outcomes etc. The Purif may raise mood
by excercise + vits + focus to get a "win" (endorphin release) and that could help with re-signing. But the idea that the persons amino acids will be lowered and that will produce compliance seems bizarre to me because there are several amino acids, when deficient
will result in irritability, depression, stress and general mood problems. That will just make the person feel bad and difficult to be around. I think all the courses have built in psch/hypno tech played out in a longer time frame than a usual hyno session. And part of it may very well be
that the participant gets benefits. But the amino acid thing.. I would like specifics on which amino acids and which vitamins are being referred to.



Yes, I agree. I belive that most floating needles from attesting to the EP was purely because we were all so happy to be done with the damn thing.
 

Boldgirl

Patron Meritorious
I had an interesting experience whilst doing the HRD Auditor Course.
As I was working my way through the various Precepts I was sort of straight-wiring all the times I'd violated each one until I noticed that it was making me feel bad.
I started looking at all the times in the past when I'd, just out of good sense, upheld the Precepts and was quite amazed to find a much greater number of those instances, I started feeling better and better. I had a definite change of viewpoint and became a better version of "me" as a result.
I had no interest in doing the Rundown after that and, once I'd written it up, a very smart C/S (now a member of this Message Board) agreed with me.

Funny--that just reminded me that I felt worse doing the ARC startightwire---I remember thinking why do I feel worse? But of course I figured the next level would handle it....how did I get to be such a stupid idiot when I entered scientology?...:duh: :duh: :duh: :duh:
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
First of all, normal exercise will and does achieve exactly what the Purif sets out to deliver
I disagree.

My brother-in law was head of biochemistry at a leading North East hospital. When he heard my wife has tried the purif out he laughed and said "Hullo Zombie"

What did he mean? Was he simply having a dig at the philosophy behind the purif, or was he making a professional observation?

I asked him to explain his comment. He told me that when you take such large amounts of vitamins and minerals, the body simply expels what it cannot process, but the remaining stuff needs to be assimilated. In order to do so, the body draws on essential amino acid stored in the fatty tissues of the brain.
I don't agree. This statement is true for overdosing SINGLE vitamins or SINGLE minerals, but it's not true when you take combinations like on the Purif.

However, indeed: There are 2 major flaws on the Purif. The missing amino acids is one of the flaws. But not because the AAs get drained, but because they get "IMBALANCed". Since 2 years I am running experiments on myself with vitamins, minerals and amino acids and I do not find that vitamins or minerals drain the amino acid pool. It's rather that you cause an IMBALANCE.

There is a "triangle" consisting of amino acids, vits and minerals. And taking too much of 1 of them causes "imbalancing" the others.

You could take some whey powder to fight this effect, although the best would be freeform amino acids, which were easily not available in Hubbard's times, as far as I know.

What is wrong with that, I asked. Nothing at all, except that as a result of the sudden drop in levels of amino acids, the person becomes more compliant, more obedient and responsive to commands.
It's rather vice versa: Because of the increase of vitamins MORE amino acids get produced, since you need vitamins and minerals to produce them. Especially when you include high doses of C and B6.

The statement of your brother-in-law (like "Hypervitamin therapies are a waste of money since they get excreted anyway") are typical for the establishment but 1) Vitamin C in your bladder is good for your bladder 2) the body will adjust and start to USE the increased amount of vitamins 3) it's a theoretical statement without any proof, just as "Milk is good for your bones because it has a lot of Calcium" is a mere THEORETICAL statement.
 
I disagree.


I don't agree. This statement is true for overdosing SINGLE vitamins or SINGLE minerals, but it's not true when you take combinations like on the Purif.

However, indeed: There are 2 major flaws on the Purif. The missing amino acids is one of the flaws. But not because the AAs get drained, but because they get "IMBALANCed". Since 2 years I am running experiments on myself with vitamins, minerals and amino acids and I do not find that vitamins or minerals drain the amino acid pool. It's rather that you cause an IMBALANCE.

There is a "triangle" consisting of amino acids, vits and minerals. And taking too much of 1 of them causes "imbalancing" the others.

You could take some whey powder to fight this effect, although the best would be freeform amino acids, which were easily not available in Hubbard's times, as far as I know.


It's rather vice versa: Because of the increase of vitamins MORE amino acids get produced, since you need vitamins and minerals to produce them. Especially when you include high doses of C and B6.

The statement of your brother-in-law (like "Hypervitamin therapies are a waste of money since they get excreted anyway") are typical for the establishment but 1) Vitamin C in your bladder is good for your bladder 2) the body will adjust and start to USE the increased amount of vitamins 3) it's a theoretical statement without any proof, just as "Milk is good for your bones because it has a lot of Calcium" is a mere THEORETICAL statement.



Could you say something about your methods with the experiments on yourself, - including what is being administered, under what condtions,
how levels of amino acids and vitamins are tested and monitiored, how you concluded that the "amino acid pool is drained", what exacty is "the amino acid pool?", what exacty is meant by the draining of this pool.

I agree that there are plenty of mainstream experts who say that taking vitamins is to piss your money down the toilet. Far too general to be taken seriously. There are plenty of vitamins prescribed by doctors for all sorts of condtions, lots of circumstances where adequate intake of various vitamins is inhibited, and people have different individual needs. The ageing process alone means that certain vitamins (and other supplements) are beneficial.

When it comes to amounts far above the daily requirement for extended periods as part of a therapy, well, I'd want expert advice of damage that may be caused.
 

DartSmohen

Silver Meritorious Patron
The whole point of these threads is to invite comment and debate. There are plenty of differing views on the matter and the more that individuals imput (without getting into silly spats), the more we can learn.:yes:
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Could you say something about your methods with the experiments on yourself, - including what is being administered, under what condtions,
how levels of amino acids and vitamins are tested and monitiored, how you concluded that the "amino acid pool is drained", what exacty is "the amino acid pool?", what exacty is meant by the draining of this pool.
My methods are limited. I am doing it privately and I have no laboratory rats to prove anything. :D

I have every vitamin and mineral amino acid as SINGLE supplement. Then I take an small overdose (= 2-4 pills at once) and then write down the effects. Then I make combination test.
Example: Taking loads of whey powder -> Feeling dizzy, getting headache -> Taking copper -> Aah clear think again. Thus I know that copper gets used up (= incorporated into proteins) when taking whey.

A great help was www.acu-cell.com This guy knows EVERYTHING. I found everything to be true (including his statement that minerals are SIDED = some work for the right body-half, some for the left). He has lists of antagonists and synergists. Brilliant stuff there. It took me 1 year to grasp his depth of knowledge.

The interesting thing is that I can SEE NOW what the other person needs. So I would see a child and then know that it needs Arginine or so.

There are several things regarding vits/mins/AAs
  • Too little can lead to problems (this is accepted by science)
  • A Ratio-Imbalance can leads to problems (this is accepted by science but not broadly known)
  • Minerals are SIDED (= your right arm hurts -> you take a mineral -> your right arm stops to hurt -> you nevertheless continue to take the minaral -> your left arm hurts). Unbelievable stuff
  • Sometimes you need the same/similar dose to run out stuff and a higher dose will not help. This is pretty esoteric but can happen, e.g. on the Purif when you start to run out something on, say 500mg, and then increase the niacin dose too early.
  • Sometimes a SINGLE dose of something (e.g. Selenium) helps while the same amount of Selenium in combination with others (multimineral tablet) would not help. I don't know why this is, obviously the body reacts to SINGULAR PEAKS.
  • Mins, vits, AAs work within MINUTES, except fat soluble stuff.
  • Sometimes there is a strange effect (which I call the Antecessebo Effect, which is not a Placebo effect, but there is no scientific term for it): Mins/Vits/AAs can work within SECONDS. I suspect that the body notices that there is new influx of Vits/Mins and thus it can already initiate a release of its own vits/mins because it knows that "help is coming".
  • Science has LOADS of information regarding Vits/Min/AAs. However there is lots of information lacking. You will find effects and side effects not mentioned anywhere in scientific literature.
  • AAs are the hardest thing to get from food in the needed amounts. Then come minerals, then vitamins. In some areas of the world it might me Minerals - Amino Acids - Vitamins. Thus if someone is ill then your best bet would be Minerals+Amino Acids. Vitamin C is probably an exception since it's a booster.
  • Vitamin D3 is maybe a miracle vitamin.
  • Psychic persons (or those working experimenting with spiritual stuff) need B9 and silica (millet). I once gave B9 (folate) to such a person (not a Scio) and she started to line charge.
  • Children need AAs that adults don't need.
  • Doctors tell you to take Calcium (for bones), Fluor (for teeth), Iron (for blood) and Zinc (for prostate). This is wrong or half-true or least incomplete.
  • It seems that black masses can accumulate when there is a lack of vitamins/minerals. Thus the purif can blow BTs (this is mentioned on NOTs).
I agree that there are plenty of mainstream experts who say that taking vitamins is to piss your money down the toilet. Far too general to be taken seriously.
They have no clue. You meet even Doctors who will tell you that you get enough vits/mins/AAs with your food. You do NOT. I don't know why and my best bet would be 1) bad fats in food 2) air pollution 3) soda pop.
Moreover you will nearly always get imbalanced by illness or larger accidents.

Here are my tips for testing stuff:
  • After you have taken a single B for several days, you should take a B-Complex to balance things out
  • After you have taken single minerals for several days, you should take vitamins and AAs/Whey powder
  • Once a month or so you should take Barley Grass powder (e.g. Green Magma) to balance things out.
  • Every mineral, every vitamin, every AA CAN CAUSE side effects. There is not a single one that is completely safe in large amounts. They ALL can cause trouble like eye pain, itching, headaches.
  • Aside from DIGESTING vitamins you can nose-irrigate them. I had sinus troubles for months and was doctor-hopping until I bought a nasal irrigator and flushed Vitamin C through my sinuses. One of the best things I ever did. Fantastic stuff especially with Manuka oil and Eucalyptus oil. No amount of vits/mins/AAs can reach your sinuses (and maybe some other areas). Since a continuous inflammation may keep you from exteriorizing (just like pain) you may want to try Neti Pots (just like Yogis do it before meditations).
  • You can experiment with Soda: If you have a vit or AA that is an acid (= sour taste) you can try to mix it with soda. For example Niacin or Vitamin C are SOUR, thus they react with soda to sodium-ascorbate and sodium-nicotinate. Such soda-stuff is said to be more soluble thus this soda-niacine will cause you to redflush in maybe areas than niacin alone.
  • I believe that there are 2 (at least) body types. They react opposite to minerals. If YOU love chromium (= your headaches go away) then the opposite type may HATE chromium (= they get headaches) and instead love chromium-atagonists (copper). So be careful to treat the same symptoms in 2 different persons
  • I found that MMTing works. The person holds the arm straight and you try to push it down to check how strong the person is. Then you let the person hold some pills and if the arm gets stronger then you can administer. BTW: I tried it once on a Scientologist with an empty vitamin bottle where I put a picture of LRH inside. His arm got completely weak. LOL.
  • Vits/Mins/AAs are not everything.
    • Some viruses cause more trouble to HEALTHY bodies. Actually the Spanish Flu (approx 100 million deaths) was killing mainly the healthiest individuals (adults aged 20-30) while the elderly, weak and ill survived.
    • Thus you might also experiment with Colloidal Silver (I met a woman who loved Colloidal Silver) and...
    • Zapping (I tried 3 different ones and only the Ultimate Zapper was doing it's job) and...
    • Magnetizing (women seem to like it more than men)
    • Liver Flushing (= drinking salad dressing). Brilliant stuff.
  • A lot of Vitamins are not yet discovered (or rather they are discovered but you cannot buy them separately). Thus herbs, broccoli powder, cinnamon etc may work when single vitamins do not.
Uff nuff sed.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
:faceslap: Have you ever wondered about the reasoning behind the intro steps of the Purification Rundown, The Happiness Rundown and the False Purpose Rundown. At the end of this last step you have a member who is totally committed, enslaved, in fact.:omg:

Let us start with the Purification Rundown.
This is a very laudable step. What a great idea to cleanse the impurities out of your body so that you are no longer the effect of them. I am sure many people will affirm that they got great results out of this and I am sure they did. After all, there would seem to be no down-side to this action.:confused2:


The downside of the Purification R/D is similar to the downside of any Scientology process. When the needs and demands of the organization impinge on the client, the client eventually loses. Also, setting the observable workability or advantages of a Scientology procedure aside, when the client is made to conform to Hubbard's theories and expectations, the client eventually loses.

A good processor doesn't fall into that trap, robotic or stat-driven staff do. Auditing is for the pc. Simple.

If a qualified person were to do the Purification procedure for, say, ten days to two weeks, and then end off on own determinism, he would be better off than not having done it at all. No cog necessary. I have seen it work that way in a medical setting.

Pushing for F/N, cog, VGI's can bypass more charge than it's worth to the client/pc. What does it mean if a person cognizes that they are free of impurities, where's the science in that?

It's the reg who needs you to be going emotionally "GaGa" :D . But, oops, that's where the false purpose implanting begins.

Now to follow the money... For years the Dianetic book sales sucked swamp water. Ya, we heard about the great sales going on in L.A. and other places, the campaigns and ads, but where are the new customers? That's what I always wanted to know!

Thanks to the internet we find out a lot of the sales states were bogus. Books weren't bringing in the new people because new people never saw the books! So what to do about GI?

The rundowns you mentioned allowed for more sales to existing customers and there was a GI boom (at least in my Mission and a few others I am aware of) when those rundowns first came out. :omg:

In 1968 Hubbard wrote: "It was found in L.A. that over a period of several months (4-6) every single income slump was traced to the accidental acceptance of one or more drug (LSD, etc.) users into the Academy and/or HGC..."

Okay, it took a few years, but he figured out how to turn an apparent negative into a positive! Follow the money by following case realities!

From Hubbard's own writings, he observed two cases to determine the characteristics of persons who have been on LSD. That's right, two cases, hardly scientific.

The Sweat Program followed. The problem of how to sell it must have been on his mind. We had a few staff on the program; I don't recall any paying public.

Then comes the Purification R/D. It's a regimen, tightly supervised. There's jogging, and sweating in a sauna, and more sweating. Day after day. There's mega doses of vitamins. There's a mysterious niacin flush that replicates old sunburns. Invisible stuff comes out of your fat. You feel like crap; you feel great!

Man, that's marketable. (To the right people, of course.)


--
Ted
 

johnc

Patron
My 2 bobs worth

I'd have to agree with what was said above. Were these studies into the effects of large doses of vits and minerals done using single vitamins/ minerals only or were things kept in some sort of balance like on the Purif? I'm no expert but would the amino acids be getting used to create needed vitamins or recover needed minerals due to an imbalance?

And were things done on a gradient or were subjects just suddenly hit with huge doses out of the blew. I would think a gradient approach prepares the body for the larger doses to come by getting the system into better and better shape.

That said, I'm not saying things can't be improved by new research either and maybe amino acid supplements is something worth looking into.

Admittedly I'm a bit of a fan of the Purif. And my wins from it seem to be the opposite of being zombie-fied. I recall once my peripheral vision turning on and everything becoming much more 3 dimensional. And at the end I felt really at cause and powerful, dangerous even - in a good way! :coolwink:

John
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
I'd have to agree with what was said above. Were these studies into the effects of large doses of vits and minerals done using single vitamins/ minerals only or were things kept in some sort of balance like on the Purif? I'm no expert but would the amino acids be getting used to create needed vitamins or recover needed minerals due to an imbalance?

If you follow the logic "Most of the vitamins are excreted anyway and this excretion can drain your amino acid pool" then you have also to conclude "Most of your food is excreted anyway thus it's bad for your brain". A ridiculous claim.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Vitamin D3 is maybe a miracle vitamin.
By the way (since I am surrounded by intelligent people who obviously like to READ and thus possibly have glasses):

A theory says that you get short-sightened because you stay at home reading instead of going outside (into the sunshine) playing (which then would create masses of vitamin D, the sunshine vitamin).

Thus you could save somebody from shortsightedness by giving him D and Calcium.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Sometimes there is a strange effect (which I call the Antecessebo Effect, which is not a Placebo effect, but there is no scientific term for it): Mins/Vits/AAs can work within SECONDS. I suspect that the body notices that there is new influx of Vits/Mins and thus it can already initiate a release of its own vits/mins because it knows that "help is coming".

There's also the factor of the electronic field of the item being assimilated immediately by the person's electronic field, and not having to wait for the gross physical item to be metabolized.

For references on this, consider Hulda Clark's "homeography" and even my own "food replicator" (little bit at http://www.fzglobal.org/foodreplicator.htm).

Paul
 

johnc

Patron
If you follow the logic "Most of the vitamins are excreted anyway and this excretion can drain your amino acid pool" then you have also to conclude "Most of your food is excreted anyway thus it's bad for your brain". A ridiculous claim.


As I read it above, it is the bodies attempt to assimilate the high level of the vitamin (or vitamins) that uses up amino acids. Maybe amino acids can be used as building blocks for missing vitamins that are needed to work with the overdosed one(s). Do amino acids also contain minerals as well? :confused2:
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
There's also the factor of the electronic field of the item being assimilated immediately by the person's electronic field, and not having to wait for the gross physical item to be metabolized.

I had this once with homeopathic medicine. I bought it in a pharmacy and I am getting it out of the shopping bag to take a few drops and then *wroom* just by taking it out (= holding it in my hand) I felt its instant effect.

Taking a few drops of it, did NOT do anything more.

I never had any such experience with other homoepathic medicine before or after that incident.
 

frhidden

Patron with Honors
Oh my god!

I thought I had way too much at 75 hours and three lists, the third one abandonded part way through iirc. Too much of that stuff made me violently sick in session and the body feel old.

A few hours was flaming brilliant.

But thousands of hours?! Wow. My poor girl. I feel for you.

Nick



When I read the first FPRD HCOB when it was first released I just wanted that auditing. I was near the end of OT3 at the time. The basic list was run to a huge win about three quarters the way down. The win was a blow related to a whole track implant/psyche incident. After that I was unable to run further FPRD and hit protest after protest. Thankfully I was only run further to complete the basic list and never had further FPRD auditing.
 

Veda

Sponsor
The basic list was run to a huge win about three quarters the way down. The win was a blow related to a whole track implant/psych incident.

-snip-

As I understand it, a whole track implant/psych incident is the preferred type of incident that is part of the EP of the False Purpose RD.

This "tech" appeared around the time that Hubbard made his discoveries regarding psyshs inventing sex.

Now there's rundown that may make some people hesitate: the Pain and Sex RD.:ohmy:
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
As I understand it, a whole track implant/psych incident is the preferred type of incident that is part of the EP of the False Purpose RD.

This "tech" appeared around the time that Hubbard made his discoveries regarding psyshs inventing sex.

Now there's rundown that may make some people hesitate: the Pain and Sex RD.:ohmy:

That whole area is full of interesting possibilities ____ why psychs and false purposes intermingle in the same corner of the chess board.

I myself think that a being can just assume a viewpoint whenever he chooses. ..and just BE over and over in present time with no track. If you leave space and time out of the equation then on a higher dynamic, what's to stop a person from postulating multiple simultaneous viewpoints. Now, those playing more of a control game probably would consider this situation a bit threatening. How do you prevent a being from assuming viewpoints and deciding to BE...BE...BE all over the map. And what would CAUSE a person to BE ...BE...BE all over the place all at the same time?. GOALS and INTERESTS....and unbelievable stresses! So possibly psyches figured out how to exhaust an inexhaustible being by making him tired and disappointed and self combative at his highest point of animating CAUSE.

Notice that when one's space has become untennable he will put things up in place of himself. he becomes absent and is no longer PRESENT himself. The repeated traumas makes him shrink in and become smaller. Awareness is considered to be sort of partitioned away. Trauma causes multiple personality disorder. The person assumes one vector after another after another after another thru which to stay alive. It is interesting that psyches like to get their hands on these kinds of cases as well as schizophrenics. "Wow. Look at all those component parts this person is surviving via after having undergone immense suppression and duress and torture. Jeepers! We can make it all ONE by electric shock. Then....we can get it to spontaneously create a multiplicity of viewpoints again! Oh what fun. " Supposing these games went on outside of time for a long at a time when we had much more resilience. That it continues to be dramatized in our lives today makes things rough.

Running Aspectics using the higher and higher goals technique I realize that a being coming into existence and ACTION is all about his vision and goal. He is his 'own' person, his own drive and goal. It is running the action. He is 'self' driven. The person overwhelmed with a psyche goal would not be. He could be made an agent or just stumped in his tracks as it would be an unsolvable problem he's figuring out. I really think this only has weight because it stands outside time...and the trauma was created from a point outside the timestream. But still a location...albeit before he WENT IN to action in some universe maybe. In my book, these would be the types of psych beings that push other beings forcibly into universes.
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
This "tech" appeared around the time that Hubbard made his discoveries regarding psyshs inventing sex.

Now there's rundown that may make some people hesitate: the Pain and Sex RD.:ohmy:

The BDSM RD perhaps? It would be interesting to see the Internship on that.

Paul
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
:
Each of us has our own point of view on this.

What is yours?

  • I think you are a bit overboard about the lack of amino acids causing obidience.
  • I like the part about the false purpose rundown making making you feel that any anti scientology thought not yours. But not everyone starts off with FPRD. It is not an entry route.

I think the route in is much simpler.

Many of the entry courses make people feel better
ie)purif, Key to life , life improvement courses and dianetic auditing. In that way they do work to a certain degree. Sometimes profoundly.

While you are there you get "love bombed" and told that you are a special thetan for "pulling in scientology"

  • You become part of the group.
  • You are there daily.
  • You get a lot of agreement.
  • You get subtle implants that LRH is source.
  • Everything gets expalined in terms of LRH.
  • LRH is always right.

so the logic becomes:
  • The (purif, or KTL, or the basic course) worked for me
  • LRH created the above course
  • Therefore whatever LRH created will work

IT ALMOST SEEMS LOGICAL. It is simple. We all want simple answers

That is what staff call "cogniting on Scientology"

That is when they have you.
 

Hatshepsut

Crusader
Originally posted by Dulloldfart

There's also the factor of the electronic field of the item being assimilated immediately.....

...and stretching to segway here___

images

This may clear the planet yet :nervous: (min 3:09)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqV0StQbJQs&feature=player_detailpage

ELEnin: The Route In and the Route Out
 
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