the Scociopath Next Door & LRH

I have been reading a book Mike Rinder recommended - the Sociopath next Door. Very very interesting book. I'm about half way through, and so far, she's discussed three different sociopaths, starting with the cruel Skip, manipulative Doreen and moocher Luke. Prior to this book I had little insight into the world of the sociopath - and prior to ESMB I can't really recall hearing the word, especially around the org.

At first I was reluctant to read books by shrinks - a hold over from the constant hammering against them by Hubbard et all. But this is changing.

Some of the points the author brings up are the lack of conscience sociopaths have, the lack of emotion they have for others, how life is a game to them, how they have no remorse, or guilt, how they seek pity. She refers to some research that was done having to do with mental electrical response to various words - in the bulk of the population words like love, feeling etc that are charged emotionally have a measurable electronic response in me and thee, but in the sociopath they have the same lack of response as stapler, boat etc.

The sociopath doesn't have an emotional connection to the people around him. Look at Hubbard - where does he talk about love? He breaks emotion down into a mechanical scale. Does it show anything about feeling? And what end does he use it for? To manipulate people by imitating the tone above or below the one they are at.

They view life as a game - they are actors, pretending to be human to get their way. Look at this quote from the viewpoint of being a sociopath:

LRH-Quote-18-days.jpg


Hubbard was known for his cruelty on the ship. He said: I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday-school teacher. Granted, this is taken out of context, but still - there's the cruelty. The chain locker, the overboards, the child abuse.

There was a recent interview on Tony's site by Jim Dincalis (http://tonyortega.org/2015/02/16/th...is-1997-secret-lives-tv-interview/#more-20388) who was Hubbard's MLO while he was in Queens licking his wounds he said Hubbard was telling stories, and it seemed to me he enjoyed the experience, and all the while Hubbard was planning the Snow White operation and the destruction of Paulette Cooper, the famous Miss Loveley.

Anyway, get the book - it's a fascinating read.

Mimsey

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Nex...words=the+sociopath+next+door+by+martha+stout

Who is the devil you know?

Is it your lying, cheating ex-husband?
Your sadistic high school gym teacher?
Your boss who loves to humiliate people in meetings?
The colleague who stole your idea and passed it off as her own?

In the pages of The Sociopath Next Door, you will realize that your ex was not just misunderstood. He’s a sociopath. And your boss, teacher, and colleague? They may be sociopaths too.

We are accustomed to think of sociopaths as violent criminals, but in The Sociopath Next Door, Harvard psychologist Martha Stout reveals that a shocking 4 percent of ordinary people—one in twenty-five—has an often undetected mental disorder, the chief symptom of which is that that person possesses no conscience. He or she has no ability whatsoever to feel shame, guilt, or remorse. One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath. They could be your colleague, your neighbor, even family. And they can do literally anything at all and feel absolutely no guilt.

How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They’re more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others’ suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.

The fact is, we all almost certainly know at least one or more sociopaths already. Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know—someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for—is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.

It is the ruthless versus the rest of us, and The Sociopath Next Door will show you how to recognize and defeat the devil you know.

5106V842oaL.jpg
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I have this book. It's one of the first I read on sociopathy/psychopathy and it is fascinating. You would also enjoy Robert Hare's "Without Conscience".

Sandra Brown has some excellent work on the research surrounding brain structure and personality disorders. Very interesting stuff but she really needs a good editor.

Blanky
 
I'll get those books - I have little time to read, but they look interesting. Another thought - the sociopath is about manipulating and controlling people - and so they have little regard for the truth. Hubbard fits this well - with his shore stories and acceptable truths, writing policies on PR ( It's a PR World for example) and some of what he wrote on criminality (Criminal Minds) rings a little too true - like reporting on something he's fully aware and capable of.

The reason for this thread is simple - when you look up the definition of sociopath - it gives the subject short shrift. Her book has been fleshing out both the sociopaths in my daily life, and our favorite Dynamic Duo: Hubbard and the boy wonder. Looking at life through the eyes of the conscienceless, who have no remorse, no morals, no shame, as she paints life as they see it, is very illuminating.

Mimsey
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I read a fair bit of Hubbard's Affirmations today. Until then I would have (and have on multiple occasions) said unequivocally he was a socio/psychopath. Now, I'm not so sure. His self doubt, self loathing, and what appear to be real affection for first Polly and then Sara preclude psychopathy.

A very damaged human being? Absolutely. And clearly mentally ill and criminally so. But maybe not a sociopath.

I also wonder about childhood molestation and abuse. He writes of being shown or taught masturbation at the age of 11. One is left wondering, by whom?

I see addiction for sure. And we know there was over the top paranoia. But he also has elements of Cluster B type disorders.

This page has interesting info on what are now recognized as 10 different personality disorders

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders


Today DSM-IV defines a personality disorder as an enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior that deviates markedly from cultural expectations, is inflexible and pervasive, has its onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to distress or impairment. DSM-IV lists ten personality disorders, and allocates each one to one of three groups or ‘clusters’: A, B, or C.
Cluster A (Odd, bizarre, eccentric)
Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD
Cluster B (Dramatic, erratic)
Antisocial PD, Borderline PD, Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD
Cluster C (Anxious, fearful)
Avoidant PD, Dependent PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I read a fair bit of Hubbard's Affirmations today. Until then I would have (and have on multiple occasions) said unequivocally he was a socio/psychopath. Now, I'm not so sure. His self doubt, self loathing, and what appear to be real affection for first Polly and then Sara preclude psychopathy.

A very damaged human being? Absolutely. And clearly mentally ill and criminally so. But maybe not a sociopath.

I also wonder about childhood molestation and abuse. He writes of being shown or taught masturbation at the age of 11. One is left wondering, by whom?

I see addiction for sure. And we know there was over the top paranoia. But he also has elements of Cluster B type disorders.

This page has interesting info on what are now recognized as 10 different personality disorders

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

I had the same question thanyou Blanky,
Sociopath or psychopath????

Although he doens't fit into psychopath description.

But , I certainly recognized his personnality with the description of a malignant narcissist.

I have a strong ''impression'' he may had always been a narcissisc but probably evolved into a malignant narcissist because of a certain degradation of his mental state. (Is it possible Snake Thomsons ''snaking'' into his mind may have left commands to behave such a way ???? I wonder..)

I also wonder what Commander Snake Thomson did with him, while we was apparently teaching him hypnosis when he was 13.....
Snake spend a lot of time with him alone...

Really???? Who would be so much interested in teaching hypnosis to a child????
Commander Thomson didn't have a wife, a family to take care????

My impression, is that this time of his life may had been a key moment in shaping his development as a human and adult (emotional, sexual,affect, domination, control..)
My impression is that if we knew the content of these ''teaching hypnosis meetings'' we may be surprised, or not...''

just thoughts though :confused2:
 
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Veda

Sponsor
I read a fair bit of Hubbard's Affirmations today. Until then I would have (and have on multiple occasions) said unequivocally he was a socio/psychopath. Now, I'm not so sure. His self doubt, self loathing, and what appear to be real affection for first Polly and then Sara preclude psychopathy.

A very damaged human being? Absolutely. And clearly mentally ill and criminally so. But maybe not a sociopath.

I also wonder about childhood molestation and abuse. He writes of being shown or taught masturbation at the age of 11. One is left wondering, by whom?

I see addiction for sure. And we know there was over the top paranoia. But he also has elements of Cluster B type disorders.

This page has interesting info on what are now recognized as 10 different personality disorders

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

The parts of the 'Affirmations' where Hubbard is giving commands to himself are what he wanted to become.

Underlining those commands, or isolating them, shows the essence of his self hypnosis exercise administered while he slept, or was drugged, etc. - which is what the "Affirmations' were supposed to be.

With the 'Affirmations' (the commands) Hubbard wanted to self-hypnotize into becoming, in essence, a superman.

What Hubbard was trying to do with the 'Affirmations', he seems to have later tried to do with auditing. For example:

From 'Cause on All Dynamics' lecture of 29 December 1951 by L. Ron Hubbard:

What is conscience? It is simply negating against your own, not somebody else's causes. If there is such a thing as conscience, it would be that...

Now you want to know any time in your life when you have felt guilty... you go back earlier and find the postulate that you are guilty of disobeying
[and erase the postulate]...​
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Personally, I don't agree with the entirety of the book and think it generalizes too much.

There are mental health issues where some people do not have the ability to relate to others and therefore no proper social conscience. Whether it's extreme Aspergers, schizophrenia or something else, it is a mental disability. The only way they perceive the world and others is centered around their concept of self - their personal needs, desires and urges.

Some of these people operate in a destructive sense. Others do not. Some make a rational decision and effort to learn social rules and etiquette, follow it, and do right by others. Others do not.

Then there are all the shades of gray between.

Some are intelligent, some are intellectually deficient. Some are emotional - angry, depressed. They might even have a sense of humour.

The mix of their personalities and traits, combined with their upbringing, seems to have a great deal to do with whether they operate harmfully and destructively or whether they do their best to follow society's rules.

In short, lacking a social conscience by mental deficiency is not THE defining characteristic of a sociopath.

After years of dealing with such persons, I still have little understanding of how or why different people who do not have the mental faculties for a social conscience would act so differently one to another. One acts out like a sociopath and another may not, or do it minimally.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
The parts of the 'Affirmations' where Hubbard is giving commands to himself are what he wanted to become.

Underlining those commands, or isolating them, shows the essence of his self hypnosis exercise administered while he slept, or was drugged, etc. - which is what the "Affirmations' were supposed to be.

With the 'Affirmations' (the commands) Hubbard wanted to self-hypnotize into becoming, in essence, a superman.

What Hubbard was trying to do with the 'Affirmations', he seems to have later tried to do with auditing. For example:

From 'Cause on All Dynamics' lecture of 29 December 1951 by L. Ron Hubbard:

What is conscience? It is simply negating against your own, not somebody else's causes. If there is such a thing as conscience, it would be that...

Now you want to know any time in your life when you have felt guilty... you go back earlier and find the postulate that you are guilty of disobeying
[and erase the postulate]...​

Yes, I understood that about the drugs and about what he wanted to become.

This is part of what I found contradictory to psychopathy. These were written as an explanation off why he was undertaking the experiment with affirmations/drugs/hypnosis. My comments in blue.

I took to dosing myself with sulfa in such quantities that I was afraid I had affected mybrain. My wife came to Portland. I took what precautions I could. I think actually that the diseasewas utterly cured very early. This fear further depressed my libido. Fear, in a psychopath is not what you and I might experience. It's a lack of concern about being caught - an arrogance, if you will. I don't see that here.

My wife disliked the act anyway,I believe, even after she had a hysterectomy in 1938. (She was always terrified of childbirthbut conceived despite all precautions seven times in five years resulting in five abortions and twochildren. I am quite fond of my children but my wife always tried to convince me that I hatedthem.)I carried this fear of the disease to sea with me. I was reprimanded in San Diego in mid-43 forfiring on the Mexican coast and was removed from command of my ship. This on top of havingsunk two Jap subs without credit, the way my crew lied for me at the Court of Inquiry, the insultsof the High Command, all combined to put me in the hospital with ulcers. Here we have fear again, fondness, and ulcers which he suggests come from anxiety about his messed up life. The arrogance, superiority, and blaming of a psychopath are missing. I returned to sea as navigator of a large ship and was subsequently selected for the MilitaryGovernment School at Princeton whither I went in 1944-45 for three months. During my Princetonsojourn I was very tired and harrassed (sp?) and spent week-ends with a writer friend inPhiladelphia. He almost forced me to sleep with his wife. Meanwhile I had a affair with a womannamed Ferne. Somehow, perhaps because I had constantly wet feet and no sleep at Princeton, Icontracted a staphloceus infection. I mistook it for gonnhorea and until I arrived at Monterey,believed my old illness had returned. I consulted a doctor there who reassured me. This affairagain depressed my libido. The staphloceus infection has not entirely vanished, appearing asrheumatism which only small doses of stilbestrol willremove. The hormone further reduces my libido and I am nearly impotent. Whining - not raging.


Sara, my sweetheart, is young, beautiful, desirable. We are very gay companions.I please herphysically until she weeps about any separation. I want her always. But I am 13 years older thanshe. She is heavily sexed. My libido is so low I hardly admire her naked.I mean to be constant to her. I love her very much. Maybe I'm reading into this something that's not there - but I hear a desire to actually connect with Sara - not just use her.

But to live with her I must regain my sexualpowers, my stimulus.I must cease to take hormones. I must rebuild my feeling of excitement about things sexual. And here, too, a feeling of inadequacy and a desire to be good enough. That's not psychopathy.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Personally, I don't agree with the entirety of the book and think it generalizes too much.

There are mental health issues where some people do not have the ability to relate to others and therefore no proper social conscience. Whether it's extreme Aspergers, schizophrenia or something else, it is a mental disability. The only way they perceive the world and others is centered around their concept of self - their personal needs, desires and urges.

Some of these people operate in a destructive sense. Others do not. Some make a rational decision and effort to learn social rules and etiquette, follow it, and do right by others. Others do not.

Then there are all the shades of gray between.

Some are intelligent, some are intellectually deficient. Some are emotional - angry, depressed. They might even have a sense of humour.

The mix of their personalities and traits, combined with their upbringing, seems to have a great deal to do with whether they operate harmfully and destructively or whether they do their best to follow society's rules.

In short, lacking a social conscience by mental deficiency is not THE defining characteristic of a sociopath.

After years of dealing with such persons, I still have little understanding of how or why different people who do not have the mental faculties for a social conscience would act so differently one to another. One acts out like a sociopath and another may not, or do it minimally.

Good post Sheila, though I disagree with you on a couple of points;

1 / Schizophrenia is an actual mental illness and shouldn't be lumped in with either Asperger's or psychopathy (which aren't).

2 / Having Asperger's doesn't preclude anyone from having a social conscience. An Aspie can be just as mortified as an *NT if they upset someone; they're however normally less able to predict which of their actions are going to be a problem because of their normally more limited social perception and understanding.

(*Neurotypical, or neurologically typical person - a non-Aspie, in other words).
 

JustSheila

Crusader
That's really insightful, Blanky. Thanks very much for your post.

I took to dosing myself with sulfa in such quantities that I was afraid I had affected my brain. My wife came to Portland. I took what precautions I could. I think actually that the disease was utterly cured very early. This fear further depressed my libido.

Fear, in a psychopath is not what you and I might experience. It's a lack of concern about being caught - an arrogance, if you will. I don't see that here.

This is a good point. Fear is not the same in those simply lacking the ability to connect with others due to mental illness vs. psychopaths. The arrogant lack of concern about being caught vs a rational concern about being caught. I've seen those who can't relate to others have very high anxiety issues after acting out emotionally because they were worried about being caught. It also causes a lot of lying afterward based on this worry.

My wife disliked the act anyway,I believe, even after she had a hysterectomy in 1938. (She was always terrified of childbirthbut conceived despite all precautions seven times in five years resulting in five abortions and twochildren. I am quite fond of my children but my wife always tried to convince me that I hated them.)I carried this fear of the disease to sea with me. I was reprimanded in San Diego in mid-43 for firing on the Mexican coast and was removed from command of my ship. This on top of having sunk two Jap subs without credit, the way my crew lied for me at the Court of Inquiry, the insults of the High Command, all combined to put me in the hospital with ulcers.

Here we have fear again, fondness, and ulcers which he suggests come from anxiety about his messed up life. The arrogance, superiority, and blaming of a psychopath are missing.


Yes. A mentally ill person who cannot connect with others would be a distant, out-of-touch and negligent father, perhaps often unintentionally hurting a child's feelings by his/her lack of compassion. I've seen that. This inability to relate to loving another means the person's concept of love or affection is limited to his/her personal enjoyment or personal interest in the other - like a pet to a small child who doesn't yet understand that animals have feelings. It's almost textbook, the way Hubbard can't understand why his wife thinks he hates his children. A true psychopath wouldn't think twice about being concerned about that. It would automatically be the other person's fault.

Then here again, more evidence of delusion when he talks of what happened on the ship. He was afraid of being caught or upset about messing up - I've seen that trigger the lie factory and delusions in those with mental illness plenty of times. It takes some effort to pull them out of it and back to reality. Nobody did that for Hubbard. And as you pointed out, here are the same anxiety issues again - another indicator of mental illness and worry over actions.




I returned to sea as navigator of a large ship and was subsequently selected for the Military Government School at Princeton whither I went in 1944-45 for three months. During my Princeton sojourn I was very tired and harrassed (sp?) and spent week-ends with a writer friend in Philadelphia. He almost forced me to sleep with his wife. Meanwhile I had a affair with a woman named Ferne. Somehow, perhaps because I had constantly wet feet and no sleep at Princeton, I contracted a staphloceus infection. I mistook it for gonnhorea and until I arrived at Monterey,believed my old illness had returned. I consulted a doctor there who reassured me. This affai ragain depressed my libido. The staphloceus infection has not entirely vanished, appearing as rheumatism which only small doses of stilbestrol will remove. The hormone further reduces my libido and I am nearly impotent.

Whining - not raging.


Sara, my sweetheart, is young, beautiful, desirable. We are very gay companions. I please her physically until she weeps about any separation. I want her always. But I am 13 years older than she. She is heavily sexed. My libido is so low I hardly admire her naked. I mean to be constant to her. I love her very much.

Maybe I'm reading into this something that's not there - but I hear a desire to actually connect with Sara - not just use her.
But to live with her I must regain my sexual powers, my stimulus.I must cease to take hormones. I must rebuild my feeling of excitement about things sexual.

And here, too, a feeling of inadequacy and a desire to be good enough. That's not psychopathy.

"He almost forced me to sleep with his wife." That's telling. I'm seeing some serious inability to understand social innuendo and signals. And here he is following physical urges without a thought to consequences until after the fact, then showing extreme worry and anxiety. And yeh, I agree, Hubbard shows a desire to connect with Sara. Love and want are also the same thing with him - this can also happen in some cases of severe Aspergers. Hubbard just follows his physical or emotional urges.
 
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JustSheila

Crusader
Good post Sheila, though I disagree with you on a couple of points;

1 / Schizophrenia is an actual mental illness and shouldn't be lumped in with either Asperger's or psychopathy (which aren't).

2 / Having Asperger's doesn't preclude anyone from having a social conscience. An Aspie can be just as mortified as an *NT if they upset someone; they're however normally less able to predict which of their actions are going to be a problem because of their normally more limited social perception and understanding.

(*Neurotypical, or neurologically typical person - a non-Aspie, in other words).

Thanks for pointing this out, CS. Apologies. I should not have lumped them all together. No offense intended.

I used the term "extreme Aspergers" or "severe Aspergers"" as there is a scale (or at least, there was) and most of what I mentioned wouldn't apply to the majority of those with Asperger's. They would have to be on the extreme end. I've edited and clarified that post.

For the sake of Lurkers here, I'll clarify:

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger disorder (AD) or simply Asperger's, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. (The syndrome is no longer recognised in DSM-5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Psychopathy (also known as – though sometimes distinguished from – sociopathy /ˈssiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks for pointing this out, CS. Apologies. I should not have lumped them all together. No offense intended.

I used the term "extreme Aspergers" or "severe Aspergers"" as there is a scale (or at least, there was) and most of what I mentioned wouldn't apply to the majority of those with Asperger's. They would have to be on the extreme end. I've edited and clarified that post.

For the sake of Lurkers here, I'll clarify:

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger disorder (AD) or simply Asperger's, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. (The syndrome is no longer recognised in DSM-5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Psychopathy (also known as – though sometimes distinguished from – sociopathy /ˈssiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Thanks, but no apologies needed.
 

Bee Sting

Patron with Honors
Thanks for pointing this out, CS. Apologies. I should not have lumped them all together. No offense intended.

I used the term "extreme Aspergers" or "severe Aspergers"" as there is a scale (or at least, there was) and most of what I mentioned wouldn't apply to the majority of those with Asperger's. They would have to be on the extreme end. I've edited and clarified that post.

For the sake of Lurkers here, I'll clarify:

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder often characterized by abnormal social behavior and failure to recognize what is real. Common symptoms include false beliefs, unclear or confused thinking, auditory hallucinations, reduced social engagement and emotional expression, and inactivity. Diagnosis is based on observed behavior and the person's reported experiences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger's syndrome, Asperger disorder (AD) or simply Asperger's, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. (The syndrome is no longer recognised in DSM-5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Psychopathy (also known as – though sometimes distinguished from – sociopathy /ˈssiəˌpæθi/) is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

A little FIY... there is a big difference between those with mental illness and those with developmental and intellectual disabilities.

Asperger's, Autism, Cerebral palsy and neurological disabilities are within the DD definition (DD=Developmental Disabilities) and diagnosed before the age of 18 or 21 (I forget which). People with DDs are generally very happy individuals. There are some with DD that may have mental illness but overwhelmingly majority does not and a DD person would not likely be destructive and manipulative because they lack the thoughts and/or physical ability do so.

DDs includes those with physical, mental and psychological impairments due to development challenges in childhood. This could come from birth, through accidents, brain injuries, genetic or seizure disorders. Sociopaths and psychopaths are the anti-social personalities but that is not what autism or Asperger's are. Yes, there is a "disconnect" ie. social interactions for people that have autism or Asperger's but they are not a mental illnesses. They are DDs. A broader way to understand the difference is that DDs are developmental disabilities. Mental illnesses are referred to as "personality" disorders not related to a disability in development.

Ok, sorry! I did not mean to jump into this thread about the book. I haven't read it but if the conversation is on mental illnesses like the socio and psycho, let's not confuse them with DDs.

Ok, that was my point of this conversation: Let's not confuse DDs with mental illness.

Ps. I agree, I would define LRH as one with mental issue(s).

Honey Love,

Bee Sting
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
Many of the mental illnesses, conditions, and disorders tend to "leak over" or "overlap" each other. The same symptom(s) can be seen in several different disorders. Which is why you will sometimes see a patient have a diagnosis get changed over time.

There is great desire to categorize and label mental illnesses - usually especially on the part of the patient's family and the patient's insurance company, if any. Everybody wants the answer to the question of "What's wrong with him/her?"

Having been involved in mental illness diagnosis and care on both a professional level and on a personal, family member level, I know it is often difficult to easily make a diagnosis, especially in the area of the personality disorders.


Hubbard surely was one who self medicated, wasn't he? He may have said a mouthful when he expressed that he was taking such high doses of sulfa drugs that he feared he had caused brain damage.

One other point: The use of the term "abortion" in describing wife Polly's pregnancies. The proper medical term for what we call a "miscarriage" is "spontaneous abortion". So Hubbard writing that she had aborted 5 times is more likely to mean she had 5 miscarriages than that she deliberately terminated 5 pregnancies.

Her first miscarriage was the loss of the pregnancy that precipitated the marriage to Hubbard. She became pregnant again shortly thereafter with Nibs.

--------------------

Read here for some historical perspective on sulfa drugs used to treat gonorrhea:

"Data from the U.S. Army demonstrate the profound effect the sulfonamide drugs had on disability related to gonorrhea. During 1934-1937 gonorrhea resulted on average in a hospitalization of more than 50 days with 28% of the patients having complications. By 1941 hospitalization had diminished to 22 days and complications to six per cent. Half the days of incapacity were attributed to the 10 to 20 per cent of patients who failed to respond to two courses of sulfonamide (29). Uhle et al. pointed out the danger that the asymptomatic but still infectious phase not only facilitated spreading of the infection to sexual contacts, but because of exposure of the strain to the drug for it to become drug resistant (26). In a survey conducted from 1936 to 1947, increasing amounts of a sulfonamide were required to be curative year-by-year. Heat treatment using the Mayo Clinic approach was curative in 63% of cases, but combined sulfonamide and heat treatment was consistently curative. Nevertheless, they recommended that hyperthermia be withheld until drug therapy had proven ineffective, because of its potential cardiovascular hazards."
http://www.antimicrobe.org/h04c.files/history/Gonorrhea.asp

The "heat treatment" mentioned, by the way, was usually via "heated boxes" in which patients sat with only their head exposed. Later, pinpointed heat was created by electrical devices inserted into either the vagina, anus, or both.
 
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Terril park

Sponsor
Personally, I don't agree with the entirety of the book and think it generalizes too much.

There are mental health issues where some people do not have the ability to relate to others and therefore no proper social conscience. Whether it's extreme Aspergers, schizophrenia or something else, it is a mental disability. The only way they perceive the world and others is centered around their concept of self - their personal needs, desires and urges.

Some of these people operate in a destructive sense. Others do not. Some make a rational decision and effort to learn social rules and etiquette, follow it, and do right by others. Others do not.

Then there are all the shades of gray between.

Some are intelligent, some are intellectually deficient. Some are emotional - angry, depressed. They might even have a sense of humour.

The mix of their personalities and traits, combined with their upbringing, seems to have a great deal to do with whether they operate harmfully and destructively or whether they do their best to follow society's rules.

In short, lacking a social conscience by mental deficiency is not THE defining characteristic of a sociopath.

After years of dealing with such persons, I still have little understanding of how or why different people who do not have the mental faculties for a social conscience would act so differently one to another. One acts out like a sociopath and another may not, or do it minimally.

I really appreciate your efforts. IMHO you should get into research
in this area. Love
 

JustSheila

Crusader
A little FIY... there is a big difference between those with mental illness and those with developmental and intellectual disabilities.

Asperger's, Autism, Cerebral palsy and neurological disabilities are within the DD definition (DD=Developmental Disabilities) and diagnosed before the age of 18 or 21 (I forget which). People with DDs are generally very happy individuals. There are some with DD that may have mental illness but overwhelmingly majority does not and a DD person would not likely be destructive and manipulative because they lack the thoughts and/or physical ability do so.

Bee Sting, what you say is not true of all DDs.

I know the majority with Cerebral Palsy DD are as you say because I've worked with them and studied it. The symptoms, etc. are nothing like anything described on this thread so I didn't even mention it. They do not have an inability to relate to others, emotionally or socially, nor destructive tendencies. Quite the opposite. Of over 100 I've cared for in my life, all were sweethearts and not the least bit deceptive or manipulative, probably not even capable of that. Some were quite intelligent, though. Most were as joyful as the happiest children, even as adults, and quite emotionally sensitive to others, sometimes too sensitive (in the sweetest way).

Those with Extreme Aspergers are very different from those with Cerebral Palsy and it is not true that they are unlikely to be destructive or manipulative, nor that they have any lack of intelligence or physical abilities. That just isn't part of that particular disability package. Aspergers has a scale. It involves a disability understanding social cues and difficulties relating to others socially and communicating this properly. If you know of references or links confirming what you say, please show me. I am no expert, but I know children with behavioural problems in school are very often diagnosed with Aspergers or some other Autism Spectrum Disorder. They are a small percent of the total that are diagnosed, though, and I agree that most with general Aspergers Syndrome don't have any sort of antisocial tendencies whatsoever.

There were no Aspergers or ADD diagnoses during Hubbard's time, so he would not have been diagnosed as a child, and we know he didn't like seeing psychiatrists as an adult, either. Many adults today were not diagnosed as children.

As DeeAnna says, there is a lot of overlap in mental illnesses and DDs due to the manifestations of both and diagnoses are often changed over time when it becomes more clear it is one and not the other.

ADDED: My personal, amateur diagnosis of Hubbard would be schizophrenia but I think he also had some sort of learning disability. Initially, I just wanted to separate the difference between those with an inability to bond with others and those with actually destructive intentions (who also have an inability to bond or relate to others).
 
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Techless

Patron Meritorious
I'm kinda scared to read and/or investigate much into this topic. I learned that I had actually married (and divorced) a 'borderline personality' type, and am still trying to shake that shit off.

And then combined in with the Scn meat-grinder effect. (2-D co-audit anyone?)

I do believe it's messed with me now, and possibly beyond my ability to pull through it...and then too combined in with the 'just getting old' shit.

It's endless! Until you die apparently... Just have a sense of humor enough to stay above the "now I'm going to be a political assassin". I'm too weak for that anyway.

I just hope and pray that anyone who HAS been through the Scn shredder, will not continue with all the other ways to do the same. They're not so 'culty' looking just yet. At least not so absurdly obvious as scn is and displays with 'vigor and determination'.

But they are here.

Of course, sane discussions about such things are a good thing. Sometimes here though, maybe not always the best, but I'm thinking only for the onslaught of new folks venturing here, in a few weeks.

Maybe just yapping out as often I do. But I do believe this 'place' can be a dynamo for getting people out of the trance.

Continue on -
 

DeeAnna

Patron Meritorious
My best nonprofessional guess for LRH is schizoaffective disorder.

://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/mental-health-schizoaffective-disorder
 
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