the Scociopath Next Door & LRH

JustSheila

Crusader
Thanks, Terril.

It's a personal interest for me because I am dealing with someone with a serious mental illness IRL. Sometimes someone says something on the Board that helps me deal with this person better. Intentionally Blank has dropped a few diamonds on this thread that led me to look up and read some other things that I can use IRL, and that's really appreciated, since the person I am dealing with IRL is stubborn about revealing his illness to others and taking the proper meds. This is common among schizophrenics, though.

There are so many parallels between this man's mental illness and Hubbard's behaviour that it's a bit spooky.

Once this job is over, I have no intention of having anything more to do with mental illness again, though, and will put this entire chapter of my life behind me. I've done it for too many years and it's just too draining. It's been fascinating, though, and without the firsthand experience, there is no way I could have ever understood the way a sick mind might work. It's so far beyond normal reality for almost anyone, that it's kind of incredible. Even those working in psych wards are dealing with medicated patients, so don't see the full extent of the illnesses. An under-medicated schizophrenic is not a good thing, believe me. Still - there really are methods to deal with such a person and help keep the person grounded and functioning without meds. It's just not a good solution.

Yeh, Terril, after this stint (which will be over very soon), I'm going to only deal with normal people, build, draw and paint pretty things and focus on art and the good things in life. But thanks for the encouragement, anyway. :blowkiss:
 

Terril park

Sponsor
]snip]

In short, lacking a social conscience by mental deficiency is not THE defining characteristic of a sociopath.

After years of dealing with such persons, I still have little understanding of how or why different people who do not have the mental faculties for a social conscience would act so differently one to another. One acts out like a sociopath and another may not, or do it minimally.

You should IMO be involved in such research.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Thanks - but no thanks.

I'd rather research animals.

Sulphur-crested-cockatoo_Yellow-012.jpg


http://www.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/welcome/royal_botanic_garden/gardens_and_domain/wildlife/Bird_research
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Thanks, Terril.

It's a personal interest for me because I am dealing with someone with a serious mental illness IRL. Sometimes someone says something on the Board that helps me deal with this person better. Intentionally Blank has dropped a few diamonds on this thread that led me to look up and read some other things that I can use IRL, and that's really appreciated, since the person I am dealing with IRL is stubborn about revealing his illness to others and taking the proper meds. This is common among schizophrenics, though.

There are so many parallels between this man's mental illness and Hubbard's behaviour that it's a bit spooky.

Once this job is over, I have no intention of having anything more to do with mental illness again, though, and will put this entire chapter of my life behind me. I've done it for too many years and it's just too draining. It's been fascinating, though, and without the firsthand experience, there is no way I could have ever understood the way a sick mind might work. It's so far beyond normal reality for almost anyone, that it's kind of incredible. Even those working in psych wards are dealing with medicated patients, so don't see the full extent of the illnesses. An under-medicated schizophrenic is not a good thing, believe me. Still - there really are methods to deal with such a person and help keep the person grounded and functioning without meds. It's just not a good solution.

Yeh, Terril, after this stint (which will be over very soon), I'm going to only deal with normal people, build, draw and paint pretty things and focus on art and the good things in life. But thanks for the encouragement, anyway. :blowkiss:

Well blowkiss back. Or any other type of kiss.:)

You have demonstrated the excellent wishes to make this a
better world which is common to scientologists and exes and others and have lived it for years.

You are a heroine. Wish we could meet but its unlikely.

lots of love :)
 

Bee Sting

Patron with Honors
Bee Sting, what you say is not true of all DDs.

I know the majority with Cerebral Palsy DD are as you say because I've worked with them and studied it. The symptoms, etc. are nothing like anything described on this thread so I didn't even mention it. No, you did not mention the CPs. I mentioned them as part of the DD definition and they are not comparable to the mentions in the thread. CP is different from Autism, Asperger's and neurological disorder but fall within the DD definition. They do not have an inability to relate to others, emotionally or socially, nor destructive tendencies. Quite the opposite. Of over 100 I've cared for in my life, all were sweethearts and not the least bit deceptive or manipulative, probably not even capable of that. Some were quite intelligent, though. Most were as joyful as the happiest children, even as adults, and quite emotionally sensitive to others, sometimes too sensitive (in the sweetest way). True! CPs are more physical involved and many go on to marry and have children and achieve Master's Degrees. Some, even get their driver's license. There are quite capable.

Those with Extreme Aspergers are very different from those with Cerebral Palsy and it is not true that they are unlikely to be destructive or manipulative, nor that they have any lack of intelligence or physical abilities.That just isn't part of that particular disability package. True! CP and Autism and the spectrum Asperger's fall within the DD definition as separate disabilities. Not, they are not the same! They are very different and I have yet to find DDs to be destructive or less intelligent. Aspergers has a scale. It involves a disability understanding social cues and difficulties relating to others socially and communicating this properly. True! But, Asperger's to my knowledge has not been classified as a mental illness. That was the difference I tried to convey. If you know of references or links confirming what you say, please show me. I am no expert, but I know children with behavioural problems in school are very often diagnosed with Aspergers or some other Autism Spectrum Disorder. They are a small percent of the total that are diagnosed, though, and I agree that most with general Aspergers Syndrome don't have any sort of antisocial tendencies whatsoever. I think we agree and we both understand the differences between DD and mental illness. My point was only to make sure that the readers of the thread do not confuse DDs with mental illness. With many with DDs, they are often multiple handicapped. So, there is more involved and often more than one diagnosis. I agree, general Asperger's don't have anti-social tendencies.

There were no Aspergers or ADD diagnoses during Hubbard's time, so he would not have been diagnosed as a child, and we know he didn't like seeing psychiatrists as an adult, either. Many adults today were not diagnosed as children.

As DeeAnna says, there is a lot of overlap in mental illnesses and DDs due to the manifestations of both and diagnoses are often changed over time when it becomes more clear it is one and not the other. I agree that there may be overlaps, but when mental illness is part of the overlap, depending in the mental illness, the mental illness manifests itself in such a way that is clear to understand that it is more involved. For example, a DD may very well express OCD.

ADDED: My personal, amateur diagnosis of Hubbard would be schizophrenia but I think he also had some sort of learning disability. Initially, I just wanted to separate the difference between those with an inability to bond with others and those with actually destructive intentions (who also have an inability to bond or relate to others).
Understood!

My post was not to somehow undermine you experience and knowledge, that was not my intention. All I wanted to do was to clarify that there is a difference between mental illness vs. developmental disabilities. As the definition of Asperger's, it might have changed but last I know Asperger's is within the spectrum of Autism and Autism is still classified as a developmental disability.

I think we do agree but we express the same thing but differently. :) My intention was only to clarify the difference between DDs and mental illness and not to infringe upon your knowledge. Perhaps, Asperger's and extreme Asperger's is both DD and mentalbecause we know DD can have mental as well.

As far as LRH...I would not think of him as schizoed..more like sociopath. Schizoed tend to think they are different people, as in "his" expression of having different valences. I think he (LRH) was always in his "own" valence but presented himself narcissistic and with sociopath tendencies. I do not agree that he had any kind of learning disability. That would make him DD. I think his learning was exceptional. My opinion of LRH!

PM me if you like. I do think we are on the same page on some of these things.


Honey Love,

Bee Sting
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Awww, Terril. :bighug:

I'm no heroine, but it was sweet of you to say that. Thank you as well for all your protesting and help with research and other things in the fight against the cult. Everybody here is trying to help someone else have a better life. That's what's so beautiful about people. Especially people here.

No, I think all this information, background and experience and all I've been through will come together for me very soon and the picture will be complete.

It's a stunning picture. We all paint one that's all our own in our lives, but the one we paint together is magnificent beyond belief.

(and I believe you and I will meet someday, anyway.)

image.axd
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I'm kinda scared to read and/or investigate much into this topic. I learned that I had actually married (and divorced) a 'borderline personality' type, and am still trying to shake that shit off.

And then combined in with the Scn meat-grinder effect. (2-D co-audit anyone?)

I do believe it's messed with me now, and possibly beyond my ability to pull through it...and then too combined in with the 'just getting old' shit.

It's endless! Until you die apparently... Just have a sense of humor enough to stay above the "now I'm going to be a political assassin". I'm too weak for that anyway.

I just hope and pray that anyone who HAS been through the Scn shredder, will not continue with all the other ways to do the same. They're not so 'culty' looking just yet. At least not so absurdly obvious as scn is and displays with 'vigor and determination'.

But they are here.

Of course, sane discussions about such things are a good thing. Sometimes here though, maybe not always the best, but I'm thinking only for the onslaught of new folks venturing here, in a few weeks.

Maybe just yapping out as often I do. But I do believe this 'place' can be a dynamo for getting people out of the trance.

Continue on -

I had a business partner who had borderline personality disorder - you have my sympathies. It's a nightmare of epic proportions. I've always thought auditing with any family member or intimate friend was a huge boundary violation - too much intimate stuff that can't help but spill over into daily life. That's why professionals don't treat their friends or families and why they are not allowed to start relationships with patients/clients.

Blanky
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Awww, Terril. :bighug:

I'm no heroine, but it was sweet of you to say that. Thank you as well for all your protesting and help with research and other things in the fight against the cult. Everybody here is trying to help someone else have a better life. That's what's so beautiful about people. Especially people here.

No, I think all this information, background and experience and all I've been through will come together for me very soon and the picture will be complete.

It's a stunning picture. We all paint one that's all our own in our lives, but the one we paint together is magnificent beyond belief.

(and I believe you and I will meet someday, anyway.)

image.axd

Hope we do. By your own words you spent years in the trenches.

You did stuff. You reject heroine?

Thats OT if you will . :coolwink:
 

Kookaburra

Gold Meritorious Patron
I have this book. It's one of the first I read on sociopathy/psychopathy and it is fascinating. You would also enjoy Robert Hare's "Without Conscience".

Sandra Brown has some excellent work on the research surrounding brain structure and personality disorders. Very interesting stuff but she really needs a good editor.

Blanky

Slight derail.

Blanky, this would be a good book to read some interesting quotes from to Mr/Mrs Blanky. No evaluation, just put out a few relevant snippets of data, and wait for the penny to drop.

Ok, back to thread.
 

apple

Patron Meritorious
I remember the scientology ethics information saying that an SP will try to climb to the top of an organization by whatever means. Saying that, I think that I personally have known two sociopaths a girlfriend and a businessman, both have done underhanded things to gain control. I think that Dick Cheney and the Canadian Prime Minister Steven Harper are sociopaths.
In doing some of the TR's I wonder if they can change someone to becoming a sociopath or at least to have some of the characteristics?
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Thanks, TE. I think Barbara Klowden had him nailed.

Manic-Depressive (Schizophrenic), Paranoid and Narcissistic personality. Paranoid Schizophrenic, in today's terms.

His schooling and grades are interesting, though. It looks like he had some sort of learning disability, but there isn't much info or details on his social interactions in childhood, so hard to say. It seems he spent a great deal of time alone and moved a lot. That would contribute to the instability. Imaginary friends and delusions of grandeur would fill the empty social hours.

It's easier or me to understand him that way, as a real person who was simply insane. Perhaps there is a touch of that in anyone who stayed involved with Scientology for any length of time, an attraction to the idea that even the worst things in your imagination are real, but that they can be overcome. Hubbard was so over-the-top insane, though, that the insanity was laced throughout the tech and had its own contagion.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
I remember the scientology ethics information saying that an SP will try to climb to the top of an organization by whatever means. Saying that, I think that I personally have known two sociopaths a girlfriend and a businessman, both have done underhanded things to gain control. I think that Dick Cheney and the Canadian Prime Minister Steven Harper are sociopaths.
In doing some of the TR's I wonder if they can change someone to becoming a sociopath or at least to have some of the characteristics?

IDK about Dick Cheney being a sociopath, but he certainly was an idiot. I couldn't see him possibly making it through University without buying the answers to tests from someone.

TRs teach a person not to react in a normal fashion. It's okay to some degree, like not letting insults hurt you, but when it comes to compassion and the better qualities of humans, we shouldn't shut those out and I think TRs do that. It teaches a person to put everything "out there", like a wall between you and the other person. It puts distance there when there might be affection. It can be a good thing in session sometimes, but IMHO, we're not robots and we shouldn't strive to be that way, either.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
Slight derail.

Blanky, this would be a good book to read some interesting quotes from to Mr/Mrs Blanky. No evaluation, just put out a few relevant snippets of data, and wait for the penny to drop.

Ok, back to thread.

Mmmhmmm ..... very good idea. And in my quest to stir the pot at the org I can add it to my list of things to blather on (oh so innocently) about.

I remember the scientology ethics information saying that an SP will try to climb to the top of an organization by whatever means. Saying that, I think that I personally have known two sociopaths a girlfriend and a businessman, both have done underhanded things to gain control. I think that Dick Cheney and the Canadian Prime Minister Steven Harper are sociopaths.
In doing some of the TR's I wonder if they can change someone to becoming a sociopath or at least to have some of the characteristics?

I think that's what Hubbard was trying to achieve with his Affirmations/Admissions. In the sentences I pointed out, above, and in more of that first section he sounds outright pathetic. But what it looks like he is trying to become is hardened, uncaring, and calloused. As if he is trying to exorcise his demons of self loathing. In the affirmations part he continually affirms his ability to be those things.

An interesting side note about TRs or training in general. We've been attending a series of discussions and practice on compassionate living. After the first one Mr/s Blanky said to me, "Wow, that really affirms a person's humanity. I found I was missing [disconnected family member] today." So, whether the TRs are meant to simulate a sociopathic or antisocial personality I would say that is one outcome.


Thanks, TE. I think Barbara Klowden had him nailed.

Manic-Depressive (Schizophrenic), Paranoid and Narcissistic personality. Paranoid Schizophrenic, in today's terms.

His schooling and grades are interesting, though. It looks like he had some sort of learning disability, but there isn't much info or details on his social interactions in childhood, so hard to say. It seems he spent a great deal of time alone and moved a lot. That would contribute to the instability. Imaginary friends and delusions of grandeur would fill the empty social hours.

It's easier or me to understand him that way, as a real person who was simply insane. Perhaps there is a touch of that in anyone who stayed involved with Scientology for any length of time, an attraction to the idea that even the worst things in your imagination are real, but that they can be overcome. Hubbard was so over-the-top insane, though, that the insanity was laced throughout the tech and had its own contagion.

I think it's important to look at the addiction aspect as well. Grandiosity, delusions, seeming lack of empathy, self loathing, hair trigger anger, self absorption .... all are hallmarks of addiction. Several professional I knew who worked with addicts of all kinds suggested it was difficult to get a good diagnosis of personality disorder while there was an active addiction.

Blanky
 
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Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think actually identifying someone as a sociopath is very hard. I might suspect such, but until they do something just horrendous, I can't really wrap my mind around it, that the person is one. Even then, after some sociopathic act, I have a hard time believing it . . . . And really it is the end product of everything, not just one act, that is the real 'tell'.

When you personally get targeted and burned, and you see that smirk, as he/she stares you down - because they want you to know it was them - that is when you really know . . . And even then, it is hard to wrap your head around, even though you KNEW the person was capable of such actions . . . .
And if you watch, from a good distance, the person move through life, you will see the 'tells' all over the place, the job hopping, the sexual promiscuity and broken relationships, the abused spouse/partner, the family breaks and problems caused by this person - and the hatred this person will have for own family - these are just a tiny sprinkling of the trail of crumbs left by a sociopath - there is usually drugs/alcohol, and criminality too, sometimes white collar, definitely no integrity or ethics or honor or courage. They are cowards. Snakes. Oh but they are charming and disarming. They move through life burning people and opportunities, because people - the fresh meat anyway - like and trust - the person, right off. :sadsigh:

I think organizations/corporations/governments can be sociopathic, if run by such - like soc$/scno. I believe that anyone - any person - can sometimes behave in a sociopathic fashion, especially if being controlled by an organization/corporation/government - is brainwashed, in a cult, etc - or extrememly angry, in a rage. I don't think this makes a person a sociopath.

I am not as educated or up on all the mental illnesses and symptoms as Sheila, but I think lrh was a sociopath. I have been around mentally ill people, but not to the extent that Sheila has, nor at her level of involvement. Sooo - I am taking into consideration what Sheila is saying, and will look into her 'diagnosis' - I mean, I like to keep my mind open, even when it is closed, :lol:. And the lid on the lrh as sociopath is almost closed down in my mind. But as I said, it is very hard to actually believe a human being can have such hatred and contempt for other human beings - and do such horrendous things.

But we are seeing it in the news every day now . . . . :unsure: . . . . . Not going there . . . . :no::no::no: I can't wrap my head around the things being done, in name of religion . . . . . Where have all the flowers gone - When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn . . . . Gone to grave yards, every one . . . Where have all the grave yards gone, gone to flowers, every one, When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn ?

Humans are capable of the most horrendous and heinous acts.
 
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Operating DB

Truman Show Dropout
One in twenty-five everyday Americans, therefore, is secretly a sociopath.

Is that in America only? Or did the author mean worldwide? Does America have a monopoly on sociopaths?
 

apple

Patron Meritorious
IDK about Dick Cheney being a sociopath, but he certainly was an idiot. I couldn't see him possibly making it through University without buying the answers to tests from someone.

TRs teach a person not to react in a normal fashion. It's okay to some degree, like not letting insults hurt you, but when it comes to compassion and the better qualities of humans, we shouldn't shut those out and I think TRs do that. It teaches a person to put everything "out there", like a wall between you and the other person. It puts distance there when there might be affection. It can be a good thing in session sometimes, but IMHO, we're not robots and we shouldn't strive to be that way, either.

I only speak from personal experience. After years of flattening my reactions by doing TR's, I do not respond like others who have never done scientology. Especially if there is a death from someone that is close. I do not like my reaction or my visible non reaction. Added to the TR's were the usual almost callous sayings, "oh its just a body". Well no its not just a body its much more, its a life.
The other observation is I have seen people fresh to Scientology who were normal decent people, then after some time in scientology especially if they were on staff they have changed so much into someone that they were not. Maybe Hubbard like. So I ask myself does Scientology change people into Sociopaths or give them some of those characteristics.
 

Gizmo

Rabble Rouser
First time I saw someone post " Hubbard was bat shit crazy " I went BINGO !

That seemed to say all he deserved.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Mmmhmmm ..... very good idea. And in my quest to stir the pot at the org I can add it to my list of things to blather on (oh so innocently) about.

:giggle: You have so much fun with these staff members calling you, I almost want to get on a call-in list myself. Then again.... maybe not. :biggrin:


I think that's what Hubbard was trying to achieve with his Affirmations/Admissions. In the sentences I pointed out, above, and in more of that first section he sounds outright pathetic. But what it looks like he is trying to become is hardened, uncaring, and calloused. As if he is trying to exorcise his demons of self loathing. In the affirmations part he continually affirms his ability to be those things.

Nailed it, Blanky! :thumbsup: Hub creates a persona as a solution to self-loathing. We know he would loath himself at times, remember the long nails and his unkempt condition when his wife left him?

I don't think Hubbard was the first to do this sort of thing, either. Far from it.

What if this is actually the exact mechanism of schizophrenia? Or even psychopathy?

What if this is why drugs can trigger schizophrenia in some people, but doesn't necessarily do so, regardless of genetic factors? Does that distorted mind state when one sees one's self as on top of things or mentally or physically superior leave such a strong lasting impression that the person never quite shakes it? In a susceptible person, does that distorted state actually change brain chemistry so that the person fuses the drug-induced concept of self with the actual self afterward?

That would create cognitive dissonance at a level I couldn't even begin to imagine. A cognitive dissonance that Hub would do anything to shut off, once he made that decision that the superior persona was what he wanted, rather than his real self. It is self-loathing to such an extreme that Hubbard essentially killed himself, killed his true personality.

It's interesting

An interesting side note about TRs or training in general. We've been attending a series of discussions and practice on compassionate living. After the first one Mr/s Blanky said to me, "Wow, that really affirms a person's humanity. I found I was missing [disconnected family member] today." So, whether the TRs are meant to simulate a sociopathic or antisocial personality I would say that is one outcome.

It's been said by others before, but it's got a whole new spin on it to me now. The Scientology persona and staff personas are sociopathic to those unsympathetic to Scientology. TRs make it possible to blank our minds, push aside any disagreements or personal preferences and accept that personality, when the first thing we read, wordclear and clay demo is KSW.

Hub knew because he fused a personality of his own. He didn't want us to have his persona, we had to have the "followers of the cult leader" persona. It's brainwashing, it's hypnotism, it's all of that, but I don't think Hub quite saw it that way. He knew what he was doing alright, but in his delusions of grandeur, he excused it all away because he was doing us this huge favour of getting rid of our personal cognitive dissonance with the infused personality ("clearing") just as he had done on himself, but our personas would be the submissive, loyal, committed guardians.

Is that too way out, Blanky? Anyone? Because it makes sense to me. Others have said this, it's just a different spin when one considers Hubbard a schizophrenic, or someone who became psychopathic.

I think it's important to look at the addiction aspect as well. Grandiosity, delusions, seeming lack of empathy, self loathing, hair trigger anger, self absorption .... all are hallmarks of addiction. Several professional I knew who worked with addicts of all kinds suggested it was difficult to get a good diagnosis of personality disorder while there was an active addiction.

Blanky

I've noticed that, too - while someone is addicted to drugs, alcohol or such, they can be so dissociated that they act just like a psychopath.
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Usually if an addict can get clean and sober, the sociopathic behaviors disappear - and they are just like the rest of us, basically nice folks.
 
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