the Scociopath Next Door & LRH

Little David

Gold Meritorious Patron
....... Do you still speak with your psychiatrist friend, Little David? .......
Yes, he's in his late eighties but still practicing. He is interested in the history of psychology and language.

I sent him this:

LRH-Quote-18-days.jpg


This was his response:

"L Ron had a way with words & Eugen Bleuler had a word for it."

When I asked him what Bleuler's word for that was, he said: "dementia praecox"

I then sent him this:

Bleuler introduced the term "schizophrenia" to the world in a lecture in Berlin on April 24, 1908. However, perhaps as early as 1907 he and his colleagues had been using the term in Zurich to replace Kraepelin's term dementia praecox. He revised and expanded his schizophrenia concept in his seminal study of 1911, Dementia Praecox, oder Gruppe der Schizophrenien (Dementia Praecox, or the Group of Schizophrenias). Like Emil Kraepelin, he argued that dementia praecox, or "the schizophrenias," was fundamentally a physical disease process characterized by exacerbations and remissions.

He replied:

"ThAnks for the correction."
 
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JustSheila

Crusader
I was going to come back to this yesterday and got sidetracked by the addiction component and then that little thing called my-boss-thinks-I-should-be-working. Someone, I think it was JustSheila, mentioned schizzophrenia as the same or similar to manic-depression, now called bi-polar disorder. I am curious about that as it's not been my understanding of those diagnoses.

Here's what I found about bi-polar disorder (manic-depressive illness)
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/bipolar-disorder/index.shtml



From the same site, schizophrenia This is what our son has and we're pretty sure an elderly aunt did as well (she died sometime in the 80's). They're both classic cases of hearing voices, paranoia, and delusional beliefs. And, now that I think about it, I have another relative who is professionally diagnosed as bi-polar. He does quite well on meds.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/schizophrenia/index.shtml

Both pages have info on current thoughts on cause and treatment.



This page, a blog on the NIMH site, discusses the history of how we observe, diagnose, and treat schizophrenia with a discussion of concept of dementia praecox and the evolution of our understanding of the disease. Lots of food for thought at all these pages.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/bio/publications/rethinking-schizophrenia.shtml



[And, omigosh, reading this I see why Mr/s Blanky got all in a huff when I talked about the role of dopamine - lol. And I only meant in terms novelty boosts dopamine/feel good so painting the kitchen is an excellent idea. Bahahaha]


On a personal note, someone also suggested yesterday I should mention Sandra Brown's work on brain structure to Mr/s Blanky. When I got home last evening there was (another) tearful message from the much younger sister who is in crisis again with a boyfriend who is angry and controlling. It's been a repeating pattern for a number of years, she hops from bad boyfriend to bad job and back again. Mr/s Blanky is meeting with her over the weekend. Thanks to whoever suggested it here yesterday I pulled out my copy of Brown's work on pathological relationships, which includes descriptions of personality disorders and brain structures, and had a heart to heart with the Mr/s about sis, her history, and that maybe we should offer her some material that Ive seen work for others in similar situations. I'm not saying Mr/s Blanky was super enthusiastic but s/he's got the book tucked away to offer sis.

(FU KSW :smoochy:)


Blanky

Apologies, Blanky, and thanks for the links. Some of these are fabulous. You are correct. It has been over ten years since I formally studied this stuff. I ought to be more careful what I write late at night:duh:. Manic-Depression or Bipolar (same thing) is a MOOD disorder and separate and different from schizophrenia. There are common manifestations between them though, which makes diagnosis of one or the other sometimes difficult. I found a good article that clarifies the difference. Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), btw, is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder. All covered and clarified in this article: http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-dif...enia-and-multiple-personality-disorder/000633

That's SO great that you were able to introduce Mr/s Blanky to some material to help her sis. :thumbsup: You're getting through. Bit by bit, you're getting through. :)
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Re: "Winning"

Hubbard wove his insanity throughout Scientology. Scientology mirrors Hub's crazy.

That's right. Judge Breckenridge in 1984 provided perhaps the most insightful description of Hubbard and his alter ego in his judgment in Scientology v. Armstrong I:

Judge Paul G. Breckenridge said:
The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile. At the same time it appears that he is charismatic and highly capable of motivating, organizing, controlling, manipulating, and inspiring his adherents. He has been referred to during the trial as a “genius,” a “revered person,” a man who was “viewed by his followers in awe.” Obviously, he is and has been a very complex person, and that complexity is further reflected in his alter ego, the Church of Scientology. Notwithstanding protestations to the contrary, this court is satisfied that LRH runs the Church in all ways through the Sea Organization, his role of Commodore, and the Commodore’s Messengers. [3] He has, of course, chosen to go into “seclusion,” but he maintains contact and control through the top messengers. Seclusion has its light and dark side too. It adds to his mystique, and yet shields him from accountability and subpoena or service of summons.

From The Breckenridge Decision
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
Apologies, Blanky, and thanks for the links. Some of these are fabulous. You are correct. It has been over ten years since I formally studied this stuff. I ought to be more careful what I write late at night:duh:. Manic-Depression or Bipolar (same thing) is a MOOD disorder and separate and different from schizophrenia. There are common manifestations between them though, which makes diagnosis of one or the other sometimes difficult. I found a good article that clarifies the difference. Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), btw, is now called Dissociative Identity Disorder. All covered and clarified in this article: http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-dif...enia-and-multiple-personality-disorder/000633

That's SO great that you were able to introduce Mr/s Blanky to some material to help her sis. :thumbsup: You're getting through. Bit by bit, you're getting through. :)

Heavens! No need to apologize :) I thought perhaps I was remembering incorrectly - it was good to review.

Excellent article. Thanks for the link.
 

Operating DB

Truman Show Dropout
Re: the Sociopath Next Door & LRH

Speaking of Sociopaths and lrh did we all forget that his 104th birthday was yesterday? I haven't seen any mention of it until my boring post.

Are we to the point where his name isn't so smashed into history? It's fine with me though. It means we're moving on and forgetting about him. Ron L who? Who are you talking about?

Do the CofS cultists even honor his birthday anymore? No big releases yesterday? What is the world coming to?? :melodramatic:
 

Lurker5

Gold Meritorious Patron
Oops, I should have quoted - the lrh birthday bash - The co$ TRIED to make a big to-doo about it, but it got beat out, up-staged, gloriously, by the doc Going Clear . . .:biggrin:


tick tock davey tick tock . . .
 

Leland

Crusader
Re: the Sociopath Next Door & LRH

Speaking of Sociopaths and lrh did we all forget that his 104th birthday was yesterday? I haven't seen any mention of it until my boring post.

Are we to the point where his name isn't so smashed into history? It's fine with me though. It means we're moving on and forgetting about him. Ron L who? Who are you talking about?

Do the CofS cultists even honor his birthday anymore? No big releases yesterday? What is the world coming to?? :melodramatic:

I think...(don't know for sure) that the B-Day "event" is tonight....at Flag, in the Ft. Harrison building.

I was thinking of going over to do a little protesting.....

:biggrin:
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Here's a great link from a previous post.

https://www.psychopathfree.com/cont...ow-Sociopaths-Think-Why-It-is-Good-to-Ask-Why

Take a look at this:

Sociopaths view everything in life—including relationships—as games to be won
Sociopaths have an insatiable need to win. This desire to win is so strong that they sometimes will take themselves down in the process of becoming the “winner.” Because they are unable to build real relationships, they view their interactions with others as games. Other people are simply pawns to be played. And because they have no conscience, they make up their own unethical, ever-changing rules for those “games.” They use tactics like mirroring, deception, projection, gaslighting, pity plays, and other forms of emotional and physical abuse to idealize, manipulate, confuse, and intimidate others, all in the name of “winning.”​

And compare it with this:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/barbkaye.htm

Me: You make a habit of instilling engrams too, don't you. That's fine, that's good behaviour for the founder of Dianetics.

He: Isn't it exciting for you being a pawn on such a grand chess board. You are playing for the world. Can you think of anything more exciting?

Me: I don't give a good goddamn about the world. I want a single gratifying human relationship.

He: You couldn't have one. You're an ambitious woman. You crave power. You're a Marie Antoinette, a Cleopatra, a Lucretia Borgia and therefore you must have a Caesar or an Alexander.

Me: No, I don't need a Caesar, even though Caesar may need me. I know you now, Ron, and at this moment am closer to you than anyone has ever been.

He: (head hung low) And knowing me you don't care for me any more.​

Notice how it ends with the obvious sympathy ploy?

Take a look at this:

The Truth
Sociopaths tell their targets exactly who they are, but they do it in such a way that it is impossible for victims to understand the consequences of the horrible statements. Targets might hear comments like, “You shouldn’t be with me” or “I’ve never had a good relationship” or “I wanted to hurt someone.” Sociopaths turn these declarations into pity plays and feel secretly justified in exploiting victims when they do not realize the statements are real.​

How about this:

The Opposite of the Truth
Sociopaths convince their targets that they will never lie or cheat and that they love them so much. They also promise that they will never do anything to hurt their victims. They regularly mislead targets by making claims that are precisely the opposite of the truth.​

What was all that stuff Ron wrote about Black Dianetics, Reverse Dianetics and hypnotism?

Were you able to see this in the Barbara Kaye interview?

Sociopaths believe they are superior beings
Sociopaths see nothing wrong with using people and then throwing them away. They feel completely justified in lying, cheating, stealing, and manipulating others. In fact, not only do they see nothing wrong with their behavior, they actually believe that they are incredibly superior to other people!​

The military sure did:

1942, 4 February: The US Naval Attaché in Melbourne reports: “By assuming unauthorized authority and attempting to perform duties for which he has no qualifications, he became the source of much trouble. […] This officer is not satisfactory for independent duty assignment. He is garrulous and tries to give impressions of his importance. He also seems to think he has unusual ability in most lines. These characteristics indicate that he will require close supervision for satisfactory performance of any intelligence duty.” Hubbard is sent back to the USA on the first available ship.​

From https://antidianetics.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/timeline-l-ron-hubbard-1911-1986/

Here's some more on Barbara Kaye, aka Barbara Klowden:

http://tonyortega.org/2015/01/24/fi...ra-klowden-l-ron-hubbards-pr-agent-and-lover/
 

catarina

PTS Type III
Oooh, there is so much fun to read on the board right now, I'm just singling something out kind of randomly. :biggrin:

Barbara Klowden, Hubbard's PR Agent, lover and qualified psychologist, says Hubbard had "a narcissitic personality", was "a manic depressive" and "paranoid".

Video from Tony Ortega's site:

http://tonyortega.org/2015/01/24/fir...er/#more-19633

I thought this was interesting since it's an evaluation from someone who was actually close to him for a while.

People who are diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

He made people worship him like a God, and pay for the privilege - I would say that fits the bill.

The part about manic depression - or bipolar disorder as it's called nowadays - is actually something I used to wonder about. When you listen to some of the lectures, the pressurized speech is notable. I can't tell if he is manic, if he is high on drugs, or both - bipolar peeps are notorious for substance abuse, estimated at somewhere between 40-70 percent.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17081077
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-5618.2001.30403.x/abstract

Mania is the defining feature of bipolar disorder,and can occur with different levels of severity. With milder levels of mania, known as hypomania, individuals appear energetic, excitable, and may be highly productive. As mania worsens, individuals begin to exhibit erratic and impulsive behavior, often making poor decisions due to unrealistic ideas about the future, and sleep very little. At the most severe level, manic individuals can experience very distorted beliefs about the world known as psychosis. A depressive episode commonly follows an episode of mania. The biological mechanisms responsible for switching from a manic or hypomanic episode to a depressive episode or vice versa remain poorly understood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorder#Signs_and_symptoms


The psychosis during mania typically only lasts during the manic episode. But Ron seems to have been quite paranoid all the time (and the very psychotic manics I have run into have more been in a grandiose state, "Yay, I can walk on water, just let me out and I'll show you!!" not so much " The CIA is after me"). To what degree was he hallucinating when he wasn't on drugs? Did he have schizophrenia? Or did he have more of a delusional disorder, where the person doesn't seem crazy at first look, but has totally fixed ideas about something that could potentially be real, but isn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

I don't know to what extent it helps to try to assign labels to him. He was a very, very messed up man. :screwy:
 

Luminous

New Member
I was fortunate enough to have a friend of mine [only did EST - never any Scientology] loan me her copy of this book. I was aware of much of the info of in it; and this book added some additional clarity to make one more aware. Another interested web site [though the presenter is fairly 'intense' for lack of a better description] with lots of free presentations is 'what on earth is happening'. He [Mark Passio] is a still recovering (his words) satanic church official. He talks about primary psychopathology [ie born with brain deficit that shows up on scans revealing damaged or missing emotional limbic system] and secondary psychopathology....acquired through life from stress and one's environment and perhaps damage caused by drugs, etc. Psychopathy and sociopathology are seemingly interchangeable from my understanding and, like most behavioral disorders, there are degrees of manifestation.
I would venture to guess that Hubbard 'disintegrated' over time into a secondary psychopath/sociopath. It is not a black or white thing and there can be shades of gray....good days and really bad days and then just bad days. Listening to Hana Whitfield talk about him on the ship in the late 60s, one gets this feeling he was already well into his disintegrating phase of personality. [For those interested in this notion about INtegrating and DISintegrating personality, enneagram studies of personality type is interesting...if complex. It's based on Sufi wisdom and then exploited/clarified and expounded upon by Jesuits I have read] Some fairly sweeping generalizations abound; but interesting none-the-less.
Anyhow, IMHO, the more we know and can find useful by our own observations, the more armed we are to deal with the challenges of dealing with people and their 'stuff' in this world. It was the respected have been Metaphysician Emmet Fox from the late 1900s who said, as an observation in dealing with counseling people, "You might as well ask 'who is wrong with you' wrather than 'what's wrong with you'." It was what he continually ran into. Seems like common sense....an interesting perspective from the early part of the 20th century. When one looks at the "ORGs", it's not the ORG or SO, etc. etc..... that is ever the problem.....it's the behaviors of the PEOPLE....and people are NOT their behaviors, though, admittedly, it is very human to label the being as his behavior.
 

Intentionally Blank

Scientology Widow
I was fortunate enough to have a friend of mine [only did EST - never any Scientology] loan me her copy of this book. I was aware of much of the info of in it; and this book added some additional clarity to make one more aware. Another interested web site [though the presenter is fairly 'intense' for lack of a better description] with lots of free presentations is 'what on earth is happening'. He [Mark Passio] is a still recovering (his words) satanic church official. He talks about primary psychopathology [ie born with brain deficit that shows up on scans revealing damaged or missing emotional limbic system] and secondary psychopathology....acquired through life from stress and one's environment and perhaps damage caused by drugs, etc. Psychopathy and sociopathology are seemingly interchangeable from my understanding and, like most behavioral disorders, there are degrees of manifestation.
I would venture to guess that Hubbard 'disintegrated' over time into a secondary psychopath/sociopath. It is not a black or white thing and there can be shades of gray....good days and really bad days and then just bad days. Listening to Hana Whitfield talk about him on the ship in the late 60s, one gets this feeling he was already well into his disintegrating phase of personality. [For those interested in this notion about INtegrating and DISintegrating personality, enneagram studies of personality type is interesting...if complex. It's based on Sufi wisdom and then exploited/clarified and expounded upon by Jesuits I have read] Some fairly sweeping generalizations abound; but interesting none-the-less.
Anyhow, IMHO, the more we know and can find useful by our own observations, the more armed we are to deal with the challenges of dealing with people and their 'stuff' in this world. It was the respected have been Metaphysician Emmet Fox from the late 1900s who said, as an observation in dealing with counseling people, "You might as well ask 'who is wrong with you' wrather than 'what's wrong with you'." It was what he continually ran into. Seems like common sense....an interesting perspective from the early part of the 20th century. When one looks at the "ORGs", it's not the ORG or SO, etc. etc..... that is ever the problem.....it's the behaviors of the PEOPLE....and people are NOT their behaviors, though, admittedly, it is very human to label the being as his behavior.


Interesting note about the primary and secondary psychopathy, thanks for that. It makes sense with other things I've read - I just have not heard those terms applied.

I'd completely forgotten about enneagram concept! A good friend of mine was very into that for a while. Never really tripped my trigger although I found it mildly interesting. http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp#.VSvTjPnF-K8
 
I read a fair bit of Hubbard's Affirmations today. Until then I would have (and have on multiple occasions) said unequivocally he was a socio/psychopath. Now, I'm not so sure. His self doubt, self loathing, and what appear to be real affection for first Polly and then Sara preclude psychopathy.

A very damaged human being? Absolutely. And clearly mentally ill and criminally so. But maybe not a sociopath.

I also wonder about childhood molestation and abuse. He writes of being shown or taught masturbation at the age of 11. One is left wondering, by whom?

I see addiction for sure. And we know there was over the top paranoia. But he also has elements of Cluster B type disorders.

This page has interesting info on what are now recognized as 10 different personality disorders

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

Ron was clearly cluster "B". The clustering just indicates that people who are seriously mentally ill are usually not clearly just showing only one type of personality disorder...there is almost always overlap of symptoms. His recorded actions and attitudes fit the symptoms of: anti-social, narcissistic, histrionic, and borderline personality disorders...hence the cluster (B) of symptoms that his "case" fits into.

His actions in his treatment of others are clearly those of a sociopath, to me.
 
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