Gib
Crusader
same here. LOL
I continued for 26 years.
So, what made you go for that dangled carrot?
was it success stories of others, hubbards words of wisdom? or your own wins?
The Secret of Scientology Part 2 : THE ADAMANTIUM WALL
- Thread starter mockingbird
- Start date
same here. LOL
I continued for 26 years.
So, what made you go for that dangled carrot?
was it success stories of others, hubbards words of wisdom? or your own wins?
Leland
Crusader
I loved Scientology. I had a great time in auditing....loved to study. But, I had been a "student" of religion and spiritual ideas prior to Scamology....And continued to read in the field ....during my studies. It just seemed "around the corner." Each tape.....was also..."just around the corner" so to speak.
I HAD to leave, because the Cult started to attack me.
I don't think I would have left otherwise.
I had been on the SHSBC for 3 1/2 years...and was on Level O....the second to last level.....When things started to get REALLY weird....and bad. ( don't want to go into it.)
I had a lot of time and money invested in becoming a Class 6 Auditor.....it really pissed me off.
The Cult is very tricky....one CANNOT question or talk about the "tech" to another scientologist......so it is very hard to "compare notes" so to speak....as to what is actually happening....or what has happened.
I think most are on that band wagon...themselves, in the Cult. One becomes extremely isolated.....even inside the Cult.
It is this isolation even INSIDE the cult....that to me is why it is a cult. Every Religion....has scholars...and religious discussions.....but not Scientology.
mockingbird
Silver Meritorious Patron
Now , to be clear I do not agree with Bernays on a great many things but show his ideas as an example of an influential and widely used text - even today .
I do not consider his idea of covertly manipulating populations as ethical and it prompts dishonesty and misinformation and distraction and crushing subjects like critical thinking - making a population idiots and in future generations you will need bright capable people for many , many things if your country or people are to survive .
Really the ideas in Propaganda go back at least to Plato and the Philosopher King concept .
Some quotes from Wikipedia :
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Plato defined a philosopher firstly as its eponymous occupation – wisdom-lover.
He then distinguishes between one who loves true knowledge as opposed to simple sights or education by saying that the philosopher is the only person who has access to ideas – the archetypal entities that exist behind all representations of the form (such as Beauty itself as opposed to any one particular instance of beauty).
It is next and in support of the idea that philosophers are the best rulers that Plato fashions the ship of state metaphor, one of his most often cited ideas (along with his allegory of the cave). "[A] true pilot must of necessity pay attention to the seasons, the heavens, the stars, the winds, and everything proper to the craft if he is really to rule a ship" (The Republic, 6.488d).
Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx).[SUP]
[/SUP] In addition, Ayatollah Khomeini is said to have been inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king while in Qum in the 1920s when he became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic. As such, it has been speculated that he was inspired by Plato's philosopher king, and subsequently based elements of his Islamic Republic on it.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
See , he had a version of a very old idea that kings are better suited to be in total power as through education they rise above " the common herd " and can gain wisdom and sophistication needed to really understand and make logical decisions and not be ruled by emotion .
His idea - certainly not mine .
I favor education on rhetoric , logical fallacies , critical thinking and skepticism for the ENTIRE population .
Not to mention to prevent the Scientologys of the world from happening - it would have no chance with a well prepared general populace as they would quickly DEMAND it be labeled a menace and shut down .
Unfortunately the critical thinkers and folks even slightly educated in manipulation are possibly five per cent or less of the population .
Whether by accident or design we stays nice and dumb - this includes me as I was fooled for twenty five years by an idiotic madman .
So back to DBs point - rhetoric is used constantly on a largely unprepared populace - watch Fox news and get a chart of fallacies :
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
I have it at home and study it often .
And take a drink every time a fallacy is used - you should be dead before morning !
You can use it on CNN , local news etc.
You can take it and read a newspaper article and compare .
You can just listen to people talk and SEE them often unknowingly use them .
The key is watching someone who KNOWS they are using them like DM or a president ( their speeches are all almost pure rhetoric ) .
Now this does not prove presidents are evil - that is a jump - and analyzing a lot more would be a fair way to try to prove or disprove that .
Lots of politicians use rhetoric and many liberals complain that people in many red states vote against their own economic interests as rhetoric is used to emotionally persuade them on hot button ( emotionally charged ) issues like gay marriage and minorities and gay rights to vote for candidates who support lower wages , tax breaks for rich ( really both parties do now ) , corporations having more power ,endless war ( again both parties ) , and against their own best interests .
As long as most Americans see politics as a confused indecipherable pile of lies and are inert - the ruling class remains unopposed in any meaningful way .
This does not require a conspiracy - just many selfish short-sighted actions by billionaire capitalists and corporations that cumulatively fuck the country and world .
It also does not disprove any conspiracy either .
As for individuals with one another - the gap in knowledge is important and the establishment of authority is as well - we all know trust lost is rarely regained .
That is key , here are two quotes to show the importance of persuasion and what knocks it out :
"In looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if they don't have the first, the other two will kill you."
"To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; credible we must be truthful."
I do not consider his idea of covertly manipulating populations as ethical and it prompts dishonesty and misinformation and distraction and crushing subjects like critical thinking - making a population idiots and in future generations you will need bright capable people for many , many things if your country or people are to survive .
Really the ideas in Propaganda go back at least to Plato and the Philosopher King concept .
Some quotes from Wikipedia :
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Plato defined a philosopher firstly as its eponymous occupation – wisdom-lover.
He then distinguishes between one who loves true knowledge as opposed to simple sights or education by saying that the philosopher is the only person who has access to ideas – the archetypal entities that exist behind all representations of the form (such as Beauty itself as opposed to any one particular instance of beauty).
It is next and in support of the idea that philosophers are the best rulers that Plato fashions the ship of state metaphor, one of his most often cited ideas (along with his allegory of the cave). "[A] true pilot must of necessity pay attention to the seasons, the heavens, the stars, the winds, and everything proper to the craft if he is really to rule a ship" (The Republic, 6.488d).
Karl Popper blamed Plato for the rise of totalitarianism in the 20th century, seeing Plato's philosopher kings, with their dreams of 'social engineering' and 'idealism', as leading directly to Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler (via Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Karl Marx).[SUP]
[/SUP] In addition, Ayatollah Khomeini is said to have been inspired by the Platonic vision of the philosopher king while in Qum in the 1920s when he became interested in Islamic mysticism and Plato's Republic. As such, it has been speculated that he was inspired by Plato's philosopher king, and subsequently based elements of his Islamic Republic on it.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
See , he had a version of a very old idea that kings are better suited to be in total power as through education they rise above " the common herd " and can gain wisdom and sophistication needed to really understand and make logical decisions and not be ruled by emotion .
His idea - certainly not mine .
I favor education on rhetoric , logical fallacies , critical thinking and skepticism for the ENTIRE population .
Not to mention to prevent the Scientologys of the world from happening - it would have no chance with a well prepared general populace as they would quickly DEMAND it be labeled a menace and shut down .
Unfortunately the critical thinkers and folks even slightly educated in manipulation are possibly five per cent or less of the population .
Whether by accident or design we stays nice and dumb - this includes me as I was fooled for twenty five years by an idiotic madman .
So back to DBs point - rhetoric is used constantly on a largely unprepared populace - watch Fox news and get a chart of fallacies :
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
I have it at home and study it often .
And take a drink every time a fallacy is used - you should be dead before morning !
You can use it on CNN , local news etc.
You can take it and read a newspaper article and compare .
You can just listen to people talk and SEE them often unknowingly use them .
The key is watching someone who KNOWS they are using them like DM or a president ( their speeches are all almost pure rhetoric ) .
Now this does not prove presidents are evil - that is a jump - and analyzing a lot more would be a fair way to try to prove or disprove that .
Lots of politicians use rhetoric and many liberals complain that people in many red states vote against their own economic interests as rhetoric is used to emotionally persuade them on hot button ( emotionally charged ) issues like gay marriage and minorities and gay rights to vote for candidates who support lower wages , tax breaks for rich ( really both parties do now ) , corporations having more power ,endless war ( again both parties ) , and against their own best interests .
As long as most Americans see politics as a confused indecipherable pile of lies and are inert - the ruling class remains unopposed in any meaningful way .
This does not require a conspiracy - just many selfish short-sighted actions by billionaire capitalists and corporations that cumulatively fuck the country and world .
It also does not disprove any conspiracy either .
As for individuals with one another - the gap in knowledge is important and the establishment of authority is as well - we all know trust lost is rarely regained .
That is key , here are two quotes to show the importance of persuasion and what knocks it out :
"In looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if they don't have the first, the other two will kill you."
— Warren Buffet
CEO, Berkshire Hathaway
CEO, Berkshire Hathaway
"To be persuasive we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; credible we must be truthful."
— Edward R. Murrow
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Helena Handbasket
Gold Meritorious Patron
And what is one way to become an authority? Hint: look at the first six letters.
Try telling that to new parents!
Helena, being snarky again
Gib
Crusader
thanks,
I continued because I had read success stories of others, and I had read a lot of Hubbard and believed him, although I didn't really do a due diligence, no internet at the time to do a cross reference on stories. I was sold, persuaded somehow!
mockingbird
Silver Meritorious Patron
Leland that " around the corner " idea is EXACTLY what I meant by -Hub makes you confused with his odd , unclear and eccentric word choices - which further implies his authority as a master of language !
THIS is what he was doing with all those odd ways to say things and referring to things with two almost identical terms - so YOU would wonder why he said both characteristics AND qualities or used an unusual idiom like first and foremost - making you clear foremost and to pass a checkout LEARN foremost is a synonym for first and that the redundant use is best explained as either having no additional meaning or as an idiom it focuses attention slightly more on the concept of both words but in either case the wording CONFUSES your mind as you try to find why he uses more words than are needed over and over - you think the problem is YOU or your vocabulary or not really getting the deep meaning in his " wise words ".
You are by seeing him as an authority led to think YOU not being quite bright enough ( that implanted phrase comes back ) is the problem .
Nine is impeded by the "reasonable" attitude of the not-quite-bright. Further, the not-too-bright have a bad point on the button Self-Importance. (c) The lower the IQ, the more the individual is shut off from the fruits of observation.
THIS is what he was doing with all those odd ways to say things and referring to things with two almost identical terms - so YOU would wonder why he said both characteristics AND qualities or used an unusual idiom like first and foremost - making you clear foremost and to pass a checkout LEARN foremost is a synonym for first and that the redundant use is best explained as either having no additional meaning or as an idiom it focuses attention slightly more on the concept of both words but in either case the wording CONFUSES your mind as you try to find why he uses more words than are needed over and over - you think the problem is YOU or your vocabulary or not really getting the deep meaning in his " wise words ".
You are by seeing him as an authority led to think YOU not being quite bright enough ( that implanted phrase comes back ) is the problem .
Nine is impeded by the "reasonable" attitude of the not-quite-bright. Further, the not-too-bright have a bad point on the button Self-Importance. (c) The lower the IQ, the more the individual is shut off from the fruits of observation.
JustSheila
Crusader
Well JustShiela I have a lot to learn about computers - as I was warned to stay away from them and the " psych implants " they contain !!!
,,,,
Look if people are snarky , insulting or just plain rude I am going to use add to ignore much more .
If they want to be nice and say hey this could make a post easier or what about this - then I can listen to them and may take advice .
If you are REALLY bored or over it , why come back to say it ?
Please don't.
I've never been snarky with you, mockingbird, nor said I was bored, or anything like that. Please don't confuse me with other people or lump us all together and get defensive. I've never condemned or even criticised your posts, in fact, many of your "likes" came from me. I just said that I have a hard time reading it because of the formatting. Presentation is important. Please learn how to reformat it so it is easier to read or take the time to preview your post and edit it before final posting. It is a request, and I believe I've been polite and have always been polite with you. Your earlier threads from a few months ago were much easier to read. These have lots of extra spacing and I have to do a lot of scrolling and sometimes the sentences aren't together. The text also appears longer that way, but maybe it isn't.
Normally I scan long posts like that, because I am very familiar with mind control and manipulation and have been on ESMB a while, but sometimes there are points that you or others make with which I am unfamiliar and sometimes you make a point that is new to me My eyes are not what they were years ago and it's just hard to look at the messy text. That's not snarky, I'm just being honest about something that would make your writing easier to read.
Sheila
Leland
Crusader
I never had a problem with this tapes....as far as comprehension. YES....so verbose....Yes...comes at something from many angles....over and over....
The problem is on many tapes...especially the early ones....he just doesn't put the meat on the table. He hints at....and leaves the possibility of.....but just stops short of delivering....
That he has to talk down to...or imply vast knowledge and understanding.....and just not get that ball across the plate...(so to speak)...in delivering the "real deal" was part of the tapes I didn't like.
Leland
Crusader
YES....there was no way to do due diligence. No internet to compare notes....and no one IN scamology to talk to about it...."against the rules"
AND....we were young. Bright eyed and full of life and strength....and will.....and positive out looks...
I hate to say it....but we were "marks".....
When I first got in....my older brother was aghast. He photo copied all kinds of negative writings and newspaper clippings....
I ended up taking em all to the GO....and had a GO handling. (Which I'm sure you can guess what that was....)
mockingbird
Silver Meritorious Patron
The three quoted phrase are similar but ambiguously different - intentionally to induce confusion and make you think YOU are just an inch away from really getting the deep hidden mystical knoewedge Scientology has to offer - it never comes !
It is ALL a scam !
I have met several OT VIIIs and BC students and when I ask about an ability gained directly quoted verbatim from the promo used for their course taken from a well known HCOB - they ALL always stop talking break TRs and look back and forth in CONFUSION ( showing the critical factor and long term memory being used NOT fear as Hubbard claimed ) .
They are realizing they are FAR from the promised gains then THINK of a Hubbard " datum " that explains why you constantly settle for less than promised gains ( there are a million ) , use the datum to resubmit to the trance state - disengaging the critical factor and burying cognitive dissonance as the trance logic substitutes total hypnotic submission for the conscious ability to recognize contradiction or not obey suggestion .
I saw this many times and did not understand it .
I would totally seriously be acting like the level or course should in fact deliver exactly what it said and THAT shocked them as public and staff progressively get used to lowering expectations as they move themselves and others " up the bridge ".
The guy by the end of the BC and OT VIII has gotten VERY used to justifying and excusing and not looking right at the huge and growing differences between promotion and delivery .
I was always shocked to meet guys on the BC who really did not have their shit together and OT VIIIs who could not communicate their way out of a wet paper bag .
I did not pursue it as I just thought they were so far above me - I must be the problem with my low tone level !
See , Hub had linked their authority to his and my NEEDING him to maintain his made me LOWER mine to raise theirs to keep his up !
In other words I had to believe in OTs and their powers because for Hub to be right they needed to be too !
So , high enough altitude and desperation by an audience can use an appeal to emotion to make the obvious be HIDEN or denied !
That is a root of denial in Scientology - we are often SO desperate for answers , immortality , a just world , acceptance , friends , importance and SO many things Scientology PRETENDS to provide we IGNORE direct evidence to the contrary ! Oopsies !
See , after a while your whole identity and life are tied to Scientology being right and workable you are VERY motivated to beg , borrow and steal any way to make and keep it right .
This can include ignoring evidence , exaggerating gains , forgetting things , denial , dissociation , trusting other Scientologists more than you really should and distrusting everyone else more than you should .
You can get very creative when your very sanity depends on it .
Losing Scientology can feel like it will drive you mad and be worse than death .
Even though it sets you free from delusion to lose Scientology !
It is ALL a scam !
I have met several OT VIIIs and BC students and when I ask about an ability gained directly quoted verbatim from the promo used for their course taken from a well known HCOB - they ALL always stop talking break TRs and look back and forth in CONFUSION ( showing the critical factor and long term memory being used NOT fear as Hubbard claimed ) .
They are realizing they are FAR from the promised gains then THINK of a Hubbard " datum " that explains why you constantly settle for less than promised gains ( there are a million ) , use the datum to resubmit to the trance state - disengaging the critical factor and burying cognitive dissonance as the trance logic substitutes total hypnotic submission for the conscious ability to recognize contradiction or not obey suggestion .
I saw this many times and did not understand it .
I would totally seriously be acting like the level or course should in fact deliver exactly what it said and THAT shocked them as public and staff progressively get used to lowering expectations as they move themselves and others " up the bridge ".
The guy by the end of the BC and OT VIII has gotten VERY used to justifying and excusing and not looking right at the huge and growing differences between promotion and delivery .
I was always shocked to meet guys on the BC who really did not have their shit together and OT VIIIs who could not communicate their way out of a wet paper bag .
I did not pursue it as I just thought they were so far above me - I must be the problem with my low tone level !
See , Hub had linked their authority to his and my NEEDING him to maintain his made me LOWER mine to raise theirs to keep his up !
In other words I had to believe in OTs and their powers because for Hub to be right they needed to be too !
So , high enough altitude and desperation by an audience can use an appeal to emotion to make the obvious be HIDEN or denied !
That is a root of denial in Scientology - we are often SO desperate for answers , immortality , a just world , acceptance , friends , importance and SO many things Scientology PRETENDS to provide we IGNORE direct evidence to the contrary ! Oopsies !
See , after a while your whole identity and life are tied to Scientology being right and workable you are VERY motivated to beg , borrow and steal any way to make and keep it right .
This can include ignoring evidence , exaggerating gains , forgetting things , denial , dissociation , trusting other Scientologists more than you really should and distrusting everyone else more than you should .
You can get very creative when your very sanity depends on it .
Losing Scientology can feel like it will drive you mad and be worse than death .
Even though it sets you free from delusion to lose Scientology !
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Gib
Crusader
I try to be a simpleton in my posts
although I know I come across as a high brow. But that is not the effect I wish to effect.
One concept at a time. The internet can be too data laden, and one needs some simple truths to realize what is true or not.
Slow down MB. There is no one shot ESMB post to "clear" somebody from Hubbard. I wish it were true.
LOL
Be 3 feet back of Hubbard.
LOL
Leland
Crusader
Scientology doesn't prepare or set one off for success in the world.
Scientology wants to destroy the world as we know it.....and build a new one...where everyone is a scientologist.
Of course, they have failed.
Scientology wants to destroy each and every member and staff and SO that have joined that group.
They want to take them apart...piece by piece...and put them back together again....
I am so glad I got out.
Scientology wants to destroy the world as we know it.....and build a new one...where everyone is a scientologist.
Of course, they have failed.
Scientology wants to destroy each and every member and staff and SO that have joined that group.
They want to take them apart...piece by piece...and put them back together again....
I am so glad I got out.
mockingbird
Silver Meritorious Patron
JustSheila , I meant to joke with you at the top of the post and talk to other people at the bottom : I see how that could be unclear .
The posts are long and I will at some point try to make new ones that consolidate many ideas into a clearer message .
I have a lot to say and always end up learning more .
As someone who studied mind control I hope you can see some of my ideas are very original ways to describe Scientology at this point as I can coordinate my twenty five years in and a lot from other subjects and see relationships that - frankly not everyone can AND my memory and ability to see patterns in information is ...not routine.
I prefer not to mention that as some take any perceived claim of intelligence or aptitude as a challenge to tear someone down or put them in their place .
Look , for anyone on that track - stop I have admitted MANY mistakes and have listed many people smarter and more accomplished than me on earlier threads .
So , I get caught between holding back and stifling the thinking process and leaving people behind as I write at the speed of thought .
I will someday go back over things to write books...and other projects and break things down into small and hopefully focused methods of delivery .
I hope it is worth it to take the time to dig for the new and different ideas I present , thanks .
The posts are long and I will at some point try to make new ones that consolidate many ideas into a clearer message .
I have a lot to say and always end up learning more .
As someone who studied mind control I hope you can see some of my ideas are very original ways to describe Scientology at this point as I can coordinate my twenty five years in and a lot from other subjects and see relationships that - frankly not everyone can AND my memory and ability to see patterns in information is ...not routine.
I prefer not to mention that as some take any perceived claim of intelligence or aptitude as a challenge to tear someone down or put them in their place .
Look , for anyone on that track - stop I have admitted MANY mistakes and have listed many people smarter and more accomplished than me on earlier threads .
So , I get caught between holding back and stifling the thinking process and leaving people behind as I write at the speed of thought .
I will someday go back over things to write books...and other projects and break things down into small and hopefully focused methods of delivery .
I hope it is worth it to take the time to dig for the new and different ideas I present , thanks .
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Gib
Crusader
I have no arguments or rhetoric appeals to persuade you from that viewpoint,
as once brothers from within the cult.
Amen.
Merry Christmas too, Leland. and a Happy New year.
Leland
Crusader
That Scientology art work....I believe on the Comm Course....of a black shell covering planet Earth....shattering...to me was very telling.
That IS what LRH and via the Cult of Scientology wanted to do to Earth.....shatter it.
But he couldn't....so he tried to take it over via the things MB posts about.....one member at a time....
That IS what LRH and via the Cult of Scientology wanted to do to Earth.....shatter it.
But he couldn't....so he tried to take it over via the things MB posts about.....one member at a time....
mockingbird
Silver Meritorious Patron
Why Gib , are you telling me it is unreasonable to undo decades of mind control and thirty five million words of doctrine for tens of thousands of victims in one post that addresses hypnosis , the critical factor , trance logic , trance states , confusion , repetition , mimicry , attention fixation , double bind , transference , dissociation , hallucinations , denial , projection , totalist groups , undue influence , the eight criteria of thought reform , loaded language , thought and emotion stopping and channeling , triggers , implants , persuasion , rhetoric , mind control , cognitive dissonance distortions and restructuring , false memories , logical fallacies , critical thinking , skepticism , scientific method , recovery , cults , suggestion , mass movements , propaganda , implication , euphoria , anxiety , reelingness , neuroscience , psychology, sublime writing AND many related topics !!!???
MERRY CHRISTMAS to one and all !!!!!
I know I can get on a roll ! I hope it is not insane cult doctrine I am spewing !!!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS to one and all !!!!!
I know I can get on a roll !
I hope it is not insane cult doctrine I am spewing !!!!
degraded being
Sponsor
I have seen small chilun never heard of pathos, and think that logos is several bits of logo.
They can still twist a parent around their little finger.
Hubbard may have studied pathos and logos as part of rhetoric, but he was also a supreme bullshitter, probably an actual sociopath and compulsive liar, SO, even if he purposefully used rhetoric as a method, he would have have been doing a lot of it anyway, rhetorical method or not. My point is not to say you are wrong, or that Mockingbird is wrong, but you both seem to insist that everything Hubbard said was a purposely application of learned principles of rhetoric and hypnotism. Right down to his policy on how to wash windows?
I think your posts on rhetoric are interesting - I haven't read them thoroughly though.
Compulsive liars and sociopaths and mere conmen all manipulate language as part of their psychological behaviour patterns. So that counts for a lot in any analysis of what Hubbard said and did, as well as his application of learned tricks of manipulation.
And Merry xmas to you and blessings through the new year.
degraded being
Sponsor
Right, and subtopics within MB's longer posts need to be clearly laid out, along with the quotes, so it does not all blend together into academic flavored stew.
And Merry xmas to you and blessings through the new year, and to Mockingbird too.
Gib
Crusader
Hubbard did indeed learn Rhetoric thru his Dean Wilbur and he did indeed use Rhetoric to help construct dianetics and scientology so as to persuade. As I stated here:
Mind you that letter to Dean Wilbur was written in 1936.
When was Excalibur written? When was Dianetics written, keeping in mind WW2.
Hubbards statement to Dean Wilbur "and your rhetoric, very battered now", what does that mean to you?
Have you done a research on Dean Wilbur and the books he wrote?
Have you studied some Rhetoric per the links I provided to get a basic understanding, which is all I have of it, and compared to the words written or spoken by hubbard (which I have read almost everything) to see how he used Rhetoric?
Here's my story:
1. Read Dianetics, wanted to go clear. Got some auditing, was further persuaded by members to now do scientology all per policy by hubbard.
2. ended up reading all the books and lectures available in 1987 time period.
3. 27 years later I find out Hubbard learned Rhetoric.
4. I research Dean Wilbur and Rhetoric.
5. I stumble across this website: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/14/classical-rhetoric-101-an-introduction/
6. I slowly read it and get my wits around it. My college education never included Rhetoric, and in fact I flunked English 101, I just wanted to learn engineering.
7. I compare Rhetoric to my memories of what Hubbard spoke and wrote.
8. My eyes opened on what Hubbard did and used to persuade.
9. Mind you during this journey, I have to thank this message board and all who have spoken out.
10. So now I'm speaking out on what I learned.
11. Hubbards letter to his Dean Wilbur is proof positive he learned and used Rhetoric.
12. the original intent of Rhetoric was to help people, to persuade them for good reasons. Hubbard turned that backwards, to entrap, as others in history have as well.
