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The SPs of the 60s&70s: Sociopaths?

Gib

Crusader
I wish I had spotted the similarities between the Brainwashing Manual and the PTS/SP and Ethics techs earlier. IMO, Hubbard used his knowledge of Korzybski's general semantics to deliberately obfuscate what he was doing - ie he confused the "map and the territory". He was good at using words to create illusion, imo.

I totally agree.

The correct phrase is "the map is not the territory". So when I read Science and Sanity, and that phrase,

I realized the map known as the Bridge to Total Freedom is actually not the territory of the mind or spiritual freedom or immortality, meaning spiritual freedom is not accomplished by doing the scientology bridge.

For the territory in Dianetics and Scientology is that all human aberration is based upon the engram and basic basic, and Hubbard set up a map known as the Bridge to Total Freedom. But that is not true. And reading the Idenics book got me to realize that coupled with Korzybski's book. I connected dots. Others have connected dots in dissimilar ways.

Hubbard sold us on Engrams as the cause of our troubles. Korzybski is basically saying education is the cause of troubles.

The bottom line will be forever and ever,

there are no clears or OT's,

however in Hubbard's system there are people that think they are clear and OT. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
I totally agree.

The correct phrase is "the map is not the territory". So when I read Science and Sanity, and that phrase,

I realized the map known as the Bridge to Total Freedom is actually not the territory of the mind or spiritual freedom or immortality, meaning spiritual freedom is not accomplished by doing the scientology bridge.

For the territory in Dianetics and Scientology is that all human aberration is based upon the engram and basic basic, and Hubbard set up a map known as the Bridge to Total Freedom. But that is not true. And reading the Idenics book got me to realize that coupled with Korzybski's book. I connected dots. Others have connected dots in dissimilar ways.

Hubbard sold us on Engrams as the cause of our troubles. Korzybski is basically saying education is the cause of troubles.

The bottom line will be forever and ever,

there are no clears or OT's,

however in Hubbard's system there are people that think they are clear and OT. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Sorry i'ts been a while but I really want to respond to this :)

When I was a kid I read widely and deeply, at least acquainting myself with many of the great minds of human history. Among other works like Freud's "Interpretation of Dreams" I read "Science and Sanity" when I was a kid, along with some S.I. Hayakawa. I was originally inspired to do so by a Robert Heinlein (who was my favorite fiction author growing up) novella which included strong elements of GS, which in the story is is used to create a race of "super men".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella)

I recently read a correspondence between the two that showed that Hubbard, who was close friends with Heinlein for a while (and according to Heinlein's correspondence had threesomes with Heinlein and his wife) was aware of the story. I suspect it was highly influential on Hubbard, as was Korzybski. You can see echoes of GS all through Dianetics, which is one of the things that drew me to it despite the lack of science.

One criticism I had of both "Interpretation of Dreams" and "Science and Sanity" is they both lacked technique. Dianetics, being mostly a mashup of early Freud and Korzybski, was like a missing ingredient because it had all the technique that was missing from the source material, and I already had the idea of using similar technique to make highly intelligent super men.

I understand that the full phrase is "The map is not the territory" which address the epistemological (epistemology basically is the REAL subject of "knowing how to know") differences between objective "truth" and what we can see and describe. What I am saying is that because of that understanding, I can infer that when Hubbard introduced mind control/psychopolitical control mechanisms straight from the "Brainwashing Manual" into CofS in the form of some "ethics" and "PTS/SP" "techs" he in fact took what he learned of GS to hide the fact of doing so by renaming, which confuses "the map" and the "territory". He did that to his followers so when they apply brainwashing they mostly don't realize that is what they are doing. He told them it was to help. But if you study the brainwashing manual and look at the removal of "counter intention" etc, it's all about the brainwashing in order to create an enclosed "thought bubble" free of anything but those who would believe in and serve him (as slaves) without doubt.

In other words, Hubbard was a brainwashing illusionist using GS to deceive, trick, and hide what he was doing. This is one of his illusionist tricks.
 

Gib

Crusader
Sorry i'ts been a while but I really want to respond to this :)

When I was a kid I read widely and deeply, at least acquainting myself with many of the great minds of human history. Among other works like Freud's "Interpretation of Dreams" I read "Science and Sanity" when I was a kid, along with some S.I. Hayakawa. I was originally inspired to do so by a Robert Heinlein (who was my favorite fiction author growing up) novella which included strong elements of GS, which in the story is is used to create a race of "super men".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_(novella)

I recently read a correspondence between the two that showed that Hubbard, who was close friends with Heinlein for a while (and according to Heinlein's correspondence had threesomes with Heinlein and his wife) was aware of the story. I suspect it was highly influential on Hubbard, as was Korzybski. You can see echoes of GS all through Dianetics, which is one of the things that drew me to it despite the lack of science.

One criticism I had of both "Interpretation of Dreams" and "Science and Sanity" is they both lacked technique. Dianetics, being mostly a mashup of early Freud and Korzybski, was like a missing ingredient because it had all the technique that was missing from the source material, and I already had the idea of using similar technique to make highly intelligent super men.

I understand that the full phrase is "The map is not the territory" which address the epistemological (epistemology basically is the REAL subject of "knowing how to know") differences between objective "truth" and what we can see and describe. What I am saying is that because of that understanding, I can infer that when Hubbard introduced mind control/psychopolitical control mechanisms straight from the "Brainwashing Manual" into CofS in the form of some "ethics" and "PTS/SP" "techs" he in fact took what he learned of GS to hide the fact of doing so by renaming, which confuses "the map" and the "territory". He did that to his followers so when they apply brainwashing they mostly don't realize that is what they are doing. He told them it was to help. But if you study the brainwashing manual and look at the removal of "counter intention" etc, it's all about the brainwashing in order to create an enclosed "thought bubble" free of anything but those who would believe in and serve him (as slaves) without doubt.

In other words, Hubbard was a brainwashing illusionist using GS to deceive, trick, and hide what he was doing. This is one of his illusionist tricks.

I'd also infer that Hubbard used Rhetoric & Sublime Writing as he learned Rhetoric from his Dean Wilbur, to hide what he was doing.

When I made the post you are responding to, I did not mention Hubbard's letter to his Dean Wilbur in 1936:

https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/dear-dean-wilbur/

Hubbard to Dean Wilbur:

"Do not allow this to upset you in any way. Put it down that I am a rebel, a nonconformist, anything. Some of these days I am going to set down these things in a book, and your rhetoric, very battered now, will be open on the desk beside me when I write it."
 

TheSpectator

Patron with Honors
[video=youtube;L_w-YWwC1lI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_w-YWwC1lI[/video]

Another great bit in this video is at 13:12 ---

Interviewer: How many times have you been married?
LRH: How many times have I been married? I've been married twice. And I'm very happily married just now. I have a lovely wife and I have four children. My first wife is dead.
Interviewer: What happened to your second wife?
LRH: I never had a second wife.

Oh, really Ron? I thought you just said you were on your second marriage. So you never had a second wife even though you're now married for the second time?

Hubbard tacitly admitted he'd been married to Sara and Mary Sue was his third wife!

Great TRs, Ron! That's the way to handle the media!!
 

Mystic

Crusader
There was a listing question, I think it's an L-10: Who or what is the only original SP?

Answer, of course:

L. Ron Hubbard
 
snippity~snip!

Tell your friends! The SP Historical Society is collecting SP Declares from 1965 through the 1970s. Let's show the world how it was done when it was done right!, when those Declared SPs were real criminal psychotics! just like Ron said!

The SP Historical Society! *SNORT!!! :biggrin:

I'm too young for this! :happydance:
 
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Gib

Crusader
This is why I stopped reading that blog. The moderator is convinced that Scientology works and Hubbard was a true spiritual leader.

Decompression takes longer for some than others…

In reference to my post,

I only reference the BIC blog as a reference to Hubbard's letter to Dean Wilbur, which is also on the official COS website.

I'm only using the BIC blog as a reference to read the full letter.

In regards to reading the BIC blog,

well, I'm out. Reading it has no effect as I figured out what Hubbard did, it's called Rhetoric, the Art of Persuasion. :yes:
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
I'd also infer that Hubbard used Rhetoric & Sublime Writing as he learned Rhetoric from his Dean Wilbur, to hide what he was doing.

When I made the post you are responding to, I did not mention Hubbard's letter to his Dean Wilbur in 1936:

https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/dear-dean-wilbur/

I remember Hubbard referring to rhetoric admiringly and being interested in learning more about it but being unsatisfied that the rhetoric books I found were what he meant. I suspect that this particular book was indeed important to and influential on him and I should read it. I think anyone who has been involved in Scientology should get to know GS, Crowley, and Korzybski at a minimum (not to mention the lists of materials about hypnotism Hubbard was aware of or recommended put together by Jon Atack and Arnie Lerma) - like Hubbard said look to the source materials.

I looked around online and various book sources without finding a copy of William Allen Wilbur's "English Rhetoric" or "Modes of Imagination in English Rhetoric". If anyone knows where it can be found I would appreciate them letting me know :)
 

Gib

Crusader
I remember Hubbard referring to rhetoric admiringly and being interested in learning more about it but being unsatisfied that the rhetoric books I found were what he meant. I suspect that this particular book was indeed important to and influential on him and I should read it. I think anyone who has been involved in Scientology should get to know GS, Crowley, and Korzybski at a minimum (not to mention the lists of materials about hypnotism Hubbard was aware of or recommended put together by Jon Atack and Arnie Lerma) - like Hubbard said look to the source materials.

I looked around online and various book sources without finding a copy of William Allen Wilbur's "English Rhetoric" or "Modes of Imagination in English Rhetoric". If anyone knows where it can be found I would appreciate them letting me know :)

1. yes it was important to him (Hubbard) as he states in this paragraph:

Hubbard to Dean Wilbur:

"Do not allow this to upset you in any way. Put it down that I am a rebel, a nonconformist, anything. Some of these days I am going to set down these things in a book, and your rhetoric, very battered now, will be open on the desk beside me when I write it."

"very battered now" means Hubbard used Dean's Wilbur book a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. Yes, I'd like to find a copy as well to read. :thumbsup:

3. I have read GS.

4. I think Hubbard's use of Rhetoric, the 3 means of persuasion, are coupled in with what Jon Atack & Arnie say, as I have read both of them.

However, both are missing the data of Hubbard's use of Rhetoric, the 3 means of persuasion, in their write-ups.
So, I am not denying what both have discovered, I am only adding a missing piece of data which I believe both were missing when they did their research.

As Hubbard said, one of the hardest outpoints to spot with is the missing. So I'm providing a missing, if you will.

If Hubbard learned Rhetoric and told his Dean Wilbur he used his book & will use his book in the future, how come Hubbard did not teach us scientology members about Rhetoric, the 3 means of persuasion?

I find this website to explain it very well for a simple understanding of Rhetoric, one will need to connect the dots themselves regards Hubbard & scientology based on their own experiences.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/14/classical-rhetoric-101-an-introduction/
 

everfree

Patron Meritorious
1. yes it was important to him (Hubbard) as he states in this paragraph:



"very battered now" means Hubbard used Dean's Wilbur book a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. Yes, I'd like to find a copy as well to read. :thumbsup:

3. I have read GS.

4. I think Hubbard's use of Rhetoric, the 3 means of persuasion, are coupled in with what Jon Atack & Arnie say, as I have read both of them.

However, both are missing the data of Hubbard's use of Rhetoric, the 3 means of persuasion, in their write-ups.
So, I am not denying what both have discovered, I am only adding a missing piece of data which I believe both were missing when they did their research.

As Hubbard said, one of the hardest outpoints to spot with is the missing. So I'm providing a missing, if you will.

If Hubbard learned Rhetoric and told his Dean Wilbur he used his book & will use his book in the future, how come Hubbard did not teach us scientology members about Rhetoric, the 3 means of persuasion?

I find this website to explain it very well for a simple understanding of Rhetoric, one will need to connect the dots themselves regards Hubbard & scientology based on their own experiences.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/11/14/classical-rhetoric-101-an-introduction/

Jon Atack and Arnie do seem to have the best gathered data on the hypnotic and mind control techniques Hubbard used. I have some insight and a couple others around as well. I can see that you definitely do as well and appreciate you filling in this piece. I'll check that article. Thanks!
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
1.1-Cover-Hostility.jpg



S

I always wonder how my old friend Scott Sutton is doing when I see his artwork from the tone scale
I hope him and his beautiful wife Sue escaped the grips of the cult long ago and that my stepping in front of
a psycho to save him from a knife in the gut was'nt a wasted act, and that he's still surfing and drawing and creating
works of art :thumbsup:
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
Wonderful. :) And there's a Contact link too. E-mail and phone number.

I won't contact him. if he's out and been out I'm sure he won't want to be reminded and if he's
still in, what the hell would we talk about:confused2:

We did'nt part on good terms anyway, he got in my face with one those arrogant goofy
Scio attitudes and I told him where he could shove it right up his ass.

He started hollering HCO bring order !! I just shook my head and walked out.

I'm old school from the streets and if you don't want no shit, don't start no shit
have a little respect or be ready back up your Aligator mouth with yer Hummingbird ass.

I guess that whole Big Being thing makes them think they got some kind of license to
talk shit or talk down to people :notworking: :scnsucks::scnsucks:
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
Link?

Because I have a morbid fascination with Indie Scientologists who blow the church-- and then proudly show that they no longer practice the same sociopathy as COS Scientologists.

Then, just moments after bragging about their own glorious "independence", "courage" and "integrity", they continue declaring & fair gaming SPs.

Scientologists: It's in their DNA, without any shred of supporting evidence, to always think they are better than everyone else.

I was about to apologise for derailing the thread, but then I read your last sentence :thumbsup:
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
Thanks Cat :) yeah the first one is Scotteeee :coolwink:

no mention of his wife or Scientology so who knows, hope then the best either way.

Susan is still with him. http://www.whitepages.com/name/Susan-C-Sutton/Georgetown-TX/2irzbpv

SUTTON STUDIOS, INC. - Texas Taxpayer No. 12013956144
Report Year: 2014

SCOTT E SUTTON (Director)
109 KEYSTONE COVE
GEORGETOWN , TX 78628

SUSAN C SUTTON (Director)
109 KEYSTONE COVE
GEORGETOWN , TX 78628

Someone posted on Jan. 16, 2012..

"Scott Sutton left Scientology to handle a medical condition, he still considered himself a Scientologist (last time I spoke with him-a few years ago). He worked at the Tustin Mission of Scientology back in the mid 70s. Scott was one of the funniest people I knew."

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/01/scientology_sun_9.php

https://www.facebook.com/susan.sutton.35
 
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