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The Suppressive Doctrine on Trial: Opening Statement by Gerry Armstrong

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, you are right that there isn't a moratorium on criticism or questioning of Rinder or Rathbun.

I just felt that "here we go again" when Carolyn made that first post earlier going after them again at this time when there's so much to be glad about with the film and all.

I've made my viewpoint known and will just leave it there. I know I could've worded my posts more diplomatically and I wish I had.

Carolyn you and your husband have also done a lot over the many years, and are to be commended as a part of what I call "the foundation layers". I also know that the "two R's" caused you both a lot of pain back in the day. If I were in your shoes I'm sure I'd feel the same way as you, or even more so.

Hopefully one day Marty and Mike will reach out to Gerry and Carolyn and help resolve the fair gaming ugliness in the past.

Well stated.

And good points on both "sides" of the issues. I would add that it is easier to "get over it and heal" once justice has been done.

Some are still seeking justice.
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Yes, you are right that there isn't a moratorium on criticism or questioning of Rinder or Rathbun.

I just felt that "here we go again" when Carolyn made that first post earlier going after them again at this time when there's so much to be glad about with the film and all.

I've made my viewpoint known and will just leave it there. I know I could've worded my posts more diplomatically and I wish I had.

Carolyn you and your husband have also done a lot over the many years, and are to be commended as a part of what I call "the foundation layers". I also know that the "two R's" caused you both a lot of pain back in the day. If I were in your shoes I'm sure I'd feel the same way as you, or even more so.

Hopefully one day Marty and Mike will reach out to Gerry and Carolyn and help resolve the fair gaming ugliness in the past.

It's Caroline. You seem to be communicating the idea that Rathbun and Rinder stopped their black PR at some point in the past, or "back in the day." That is not correct. Nor has either of them corrected their black PR, nor done anything to correct ongoing injustices that they helped perpetrate, and could do something humane about.

The time to stop talking about this is when they correct their lies and injustices.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
It's Caroline. You seem to be communicating the idea that Rathbun and Rinder stopped their black PR at some point in the past, or "back in the day." That is not correct. Nor has either of them corrected their black PR, nor done anything to correct ongoing injustices that they helped perpetrate, and could do something humane about.

The time to stop talking about this is when they correct their lies and injustices.

Firstly, sorry I misspelled your name.

Secondly, I guess I'm just a bad person. Perhaps I'm a part of the Rinder/Rathbun cabal that is "communicating the idea that they've stopped their black PR". Apparently Tony O, Lawrence Wright, and Alex Gibney are as well. Maybe this HBO film is just a "handling".

Or maybe I just see no evidence of it, ongoing black PR on their part, going on these days.

If you have tangible evidence then prove it.

I do agree that they've not apologized to you or your husband personally. That needs to be done. I agree.

But as far as their overall role in the past I think they at least believe that what they are doing now is an effort to correct it.
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Firstly, sorry I misspelled your name.

Thank you.

Secondly, I guess I'm just a bad person.

That's up to you.

Perhaps I'm a part of the Rinder/Rathbun cabal that is "communicating the idea that they've stopped their black PR".

Could be. I am sure you know what cabals you’re a part of.

Apparently Tony O, Lawrence Wright, and Alex Gibney are as well.

Could be. It’s not my cabal. But if these people are claiming that Rathbun and Rinder have corrected their black PR or acted to correct the injustices they perpetrated against Gerry, then these people are deluded or lying. Gerry and I cannot help this. It is Rathbun and Rinder’s correction of their lies and injustices that can help it.

Maybe this HBO film is just a "handling".

Could be. There are such things.

Or maybe I just see no evidence of it, ongoing black PR on their part, going on these days.

When do "these days" start? It is easy to see no evidence if you look where it isn’t. All their black PR is going on every day they do not correct it. All their injustices continue every day they do not correct them.

If you have tangible evidence then prove it.

It has been proven. What is needed is tangible evidence that Rathbun and Rinder have corrected the lies and justices they perpetrated against Gerry. If you have such tangible evidence then please post it.

I do agree that they've not apologized to you or your husband personally. That needs to be done. I agree.

I don’t know with whom you are agreeing. Gerry has never asked for an apology, and has made this very clear. Letter to Mark Rathbun: Apology not needed or wanted

If you know that apologizing needs to be done, you know there are actions for which that apologizing needs to be done.

But as far as their overall role in the past I think they at least believe that what they are doing now is an effort to correct it.

I cannot accept this. What they believe doesn't concern me. They have to know that what they are doing is an effort to evade correcting their past and ongoing actions against Gerry and others in our class. The Scientologists under Hubbard and Miscavige have been doing this for decades. Their anti-drug campaigns, literacy campaigns and catastrophe site campaigns and all their other "good works well publicized" help them to evade correcting their past and ongoing tortious, criminal or antisocial actions.

The Scientologists' opponents do not allow themselves to be conned by Miscavige and let him evade responsibility for his past actions with these "good works." There is similarly no reason why we, Rathbun and Rinder's victims, should allow ourselves to be conned by them either.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
<snipped>



I cannot accept this. What they believe doesn't concern me. They have to know that what they are doing is an effort to evade correcting their past and ongoing actions against Gerry and others in our class. The Scientologists under Hubbard and Miscavige have been doing this for decades. Their anti-drug campaigns, literacy campaigns and catastrophe site campaigns and all their other "good works well publicized" help them to evade correcting their past and ongoing tortious, criminal or antisocial actions.

The Scientologists' opponents do not allow themselves to be conned by Miscavige and let him evade responsibility for his past actions with these "good works." There is similarly no reason why we, Rathbun and Rinder's victims, should allow ourselves to be conned by them either.


:faceslap::whatever:
 
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Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Oh Goodie..Another Geroline thread revived.

Just what I wanted today.:duh:
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Oh Goodie..Another Geroline thread revived.

Just what I wanted today.:duh:

Yeah, I went back and retracted my earlier post in which I tried to be nice and understanding. They can't even receive a compliment without being bitter and borderline hostile.
 
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Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Yeah, I went back and retracted my earlier post in which I tried to be nice and understanding. They can't even receive a compliment without being bitter and borderline hostile.

I know. Been there, done that.:eyeroll:
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
"People who hold grudges, who would never let go of an offense are living examples of people who have not experienced healing. They become cripples for life. Bitterness comes from the mental rehearsing and remembering insults, hurts, injustices, rejection and pain from others. That can turn into hatred when we are unwilling to let go, to dismiss or to forgive the other party."

http://www.family-counseling-therapy.com/forgiveness.html

That is the issue, in a nut shell.

This activity does nothing to open the door to real communication needed to resolve the conflict, to gain the information sought and get truth as a means of justice. It's not as if Rinder or Marty are ever going to read anything Caroline writes here or anywhere about them. Some day, a simple short one small paragraph email appeal asking to meet and talk, or do a telephone conference, would at least start a dialogue going. For now, it's a grudge and will remain a grudge until something changes.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Originally posted by Caroline (and snipped).

Thank you. And on the critically important topic of the SP doctrine, I think it is absolutely right that where people make false and defamatory statements about Scientology's "SP class," it is our responsibility to stand up to it and call it for what it is: black PR. The Jews do it when antisemitism raises its hateful head. Should the SPs do less when antiSPism raises its equally hateful head?

An inarguable reason that Rathbun and Rinder lie about the SP doctrine at this stage in their careers is because the SP doctrine, and their practical application of it outside their walls, violates public policy. The people practicing the SP doctrine work assiduously to keep the public from finding out how antisocial and dangerous it is.



Caroline,

When did they lie about the SP doctrine?

Do you genuinely care about the cults "SP doctrine and SP class" (whatever that is) labeling?

Does anyone (once out) give it a moments thought? It's just a few meaningless words to me and has been since the day I dumped the cult.

Why do you consider it to be a valid label to be taken so seriously?

Of course it's disgusting and nasty, it's devastated many lives and will continue to until the cult is dead ... but that doesn't seem to be the reason you are speaking of it here.

:confused2:


It has been proven. What is needed is tangible evidence that Rathbun and Rinder have corrected the lies and justices they perpetrated against Gerry. If you have such tangible evidence then please post it.

If Marty and Mike refuse to do as you ask, does it really matter now?

I imagine most exes know that what happened to Gerry did actually happen and are disgusted by it but also realise that Marty and Mike were victims too.

Current scientologists probably wouldn't know what to think or feel about this issue, they can't handle the truth ... yet.

I doubt the (never in) public care one way or the other (they may find it entertaining but I doubt they actually care).

You and Gerry do know the truth and say an apology is not required so why do you want an almost scientology like "acknowledgment/conditions trip/overts disclosure" from Marty and Mike?

What would it really achieve (apart from shaming them)? Are you bothered by the prospect of them becoming some kind of heroes here due to what they are currently involved in because that would be understandable, it must grate badly on you both ... but here (ESMB) I doubt they will ever be seen as "heroes" by most of us in the long term.

Is it the first step to something more or is the correction of lies and injustice all you want from them?

If you truly want the acknowledgement of wrongdoing corrected so you can use it to appeal the potential jail sentence and fines awaiting Gerry if he sets foot in the US, why would either of you ask for assistance like this and via a public letter, you must know it will never achieve anything but more upset?

:)

 
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Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm sure I'm not the only one that see's the irony of "Kooky Arnie" and "Bitter Gerry" thats been
ongoing for past week or so, all started with a post about ESMB credibility.

Conspiracy theory = Kooky
Grudge = Bitter Apostate

Different words same Operation same policy same mentality that of the crazy fucker Hoobard.

So for his Birthday lets give him a big old :buttkick::stone::scnsucks::notworking::horse:hip hip go fuck yourself Ronnie
and all those that follow in Hoobards sickass footsteps :cheers2: to Wright and Gibney for shining a flashlight on the ugly
underbelly and insane world of $cientology.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I'm sure I'm not the only one that see's the irony of "Kooky Arnie" and "Bitter Gerry" thats been
ongoing for past week or so, all started with a post about ESMB credibility.

Conspiracy theory = Kooky
Grudge = Bitter Apostate

Different words same Operation same policy same mentality that of the crazy fucker Hoobard.

So for his Birthday lets give him a big old :buttkick::stone::scnsucks::notworking::horse:hip hip go fuck yourself Ronnie
and all those that follow in Hoobards sickass footsteps :cheers2: to Wright and Gibney for shining a flashlight on the ugly
underbelly and insane world of $cientology.


On the contrary, I think many of us have lost the cultic way of thinking and extreme, constant (and sometimes insulting) conspiracy theories and public guilt trips and demands for admission of wrongdoing feels culty ... to me anyway.

It's an imperfect situation but I see many of us making the best of it and moving ahead instead of looking back ... and that has to be good.

:)
 

DagwoodGum

Squirreling Dervish
On the contrary, I think many of us have lost the cultic way of thinking and extreme, constant (and sometimes insulting) conspiracy theories and public guilt trips and demands for admission of wrongdoing feels culty ... to me anyway.

It's an imperfect situation but I see many of us making the best of it and moving ahead instead of looking back ... and that has to be good.

:)

It seems even more culty once the derogatory labels start getting slung around in true LRH style. Real dialogue can't occur in the face of 8th grade name calling but we were well coached in the many modes of harassment and invalidation from TR's/w bullbait on.....
I know, I was one of the trainees and learned to be quite the pill when I want to be.
 

Elronius of Marcabia

Silver Meritorious Patron
On the contrary, I think many of us have lost the cultic way of thinking and extreme, constant (and sometimes insulting) conspiracy theories and public guilt trips and demands for admission of wrongdoing feels culty ... to me anyway.

It's an imperfect situation but I see many of us making the best of it and moving ahead instead of looking back ... and that has to be good.

:)

I made no demands for admissions, I could care less 'not my cross to bear" I was only pointing to the irony of
what the cult has been trying to do for years with Arnie and Gerry and if its "ongoing" its not looking back is it?:coolwink:

Don't we all need to be careful of carrying water unknowingly for the crazy bastards who still exist namely OSA
I can guarantee you they have no such thoughts of forgiveness and moving ahead, you can change the initials
but the policy is still firmly in place in their hearts and minds with zealot and fundamentalist fervor to utterly destroy
their enemies and clear the sector for the good of all mankind as loyal officers to Fatso and his insane deluded crusade:omg::yes:
thats some sick shit !!

That's Hoobard behind the 8x10 glossy posted on the courseroom walls of every $cientology building on the planet
and every copy of KSW ever read and those yet to be read by the future dupes of Fatso's insanity which he spread with
such glee as his "Gift to Mankind":duh::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::melodramatic::drama::drama::drama::drama::drama::drama::drama::drama::drama:
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
About all this Caroline/Gerry vs Marty/Mike/whoever/whatever issue:

I don't understand why Caroline and by extension Gerry tie these monstrous balls and chains around their legs.

One valuable lesson life usually teaches early on, is: On can't change the mind of another person. Only they can do that.

When/if M&M don't want to talk/write/act in ways that Caroline and Gerry could find acceptable, why can't C&G just shrug it off and just move on with their plans and their lives?

Why constantly refuel that grudge? Is the will to modify/change M&Ms thoughts and behaviors so strong and important that it justifies the not-so-insignificant delay in the forthcoming of C&Gs lives? They could move along so much faster without these unnecessary balls and chains.

For whatever their reasons may be, C&G seem to need to keep this useless shadow-fight going.

Banging their heads against the M&M walls must be kinda fun for them, but watching that is not fun for me and I assume there are some ESMB members who'd agree with me on that.

Therefore, this is for you, Caroline: Either you and Gerry or Marty and Mike will need to have some significant mind changes - preferably all 4 of you, I'd say. These mind changes will hopefully happen one day, but until then: Would it be too much to ask you to keep these annoying grudges off the board? There's nothin' positive in them, so why bother?
 

Caroline

Patron Meritorious
Originally posted by Caroline (and snipped).





Caroline,

When did they lie about the SP doctrine?

I identified a number of instances. Take for example, Rathbun as writer and Rinder as editor in Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior:

Page 105:
such an individual was labeled a suppressive person – roughly equivalent to a sociopath or psychopath.

Page 164:

A suppressive person, in Scientology vernacular, is roughly equivalent to a sociopath – a conscienceless individual who could put on a convincing front of wanting others to thrive, while harboring the secret goal of destroying everyone in his or her vicinity. Hubbard had written and lectured on the subject rather extensively in the sixties. Ironically, thirty years later the very mental health profession that condemned Hubbard during his life would describe the sociopath or psychopath in very much the same terms Hubbard had in the fifties and sixties. A comparison between Hubbard’s writings and lectures, and current leading mental health texts on the subject bears this out.


Rathbun, Mark (2013-05-28). Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior. Amazon Books. Kindle Edition.

This is as dishonest a pair of lies as claiming that a Jew is roughly equivalent to a sociopath or psychopath. Or a Jew is a conscienceless individual who could put on a convincing front of wanting others to thrive, while harboring the secret goal of destroying everyone in his or her vicinity. Or that mental health profession that condemned Hitler during his life would describe the Jew in very much the same terms Hitler had in the thirties and forties. Or that a comparison between Hitler’s writings and lectures, and current leading mental health texts on the subject bears this out.

The level of "logic" Rathbun and Rinder are using goes something like: SPs exist. Sociopaths exist. Therefore SPs are sociopaths. Jews exist. Sociopaths exist. Therefore Jews are sociopaths. And since Jews are sociopaths, they have sociopaths’ characteristics. QED.

Do you genuinely care about the cults "SP doctrine and SP class" (whatever that is) labeling?

It is not clear what you wrote. If you do not understand the SP doctrine and the SP class, please study Gerry’s paper that carefully and simply explains these subjects.

[video]https://youtu.be/9RPPjOSFKok[/video]

Transcript: The Suppressive Person Doctrine On Trial: Opening Statement by Gerry Armstrong

But, do I genuinely care about the SP doctrine, the SP class and our black PRing and fair gaming? Yes!

Does anyone (once out) give it a moments thought?

Yes.

Do some people give a moment’s thought the the Nazis Jewish doctrine and the Jewish class and the black PRing and fair gaming of Jews? Yes!

It's just a few meaningless words to me and has been since the day I dumped the cult.

Clearly these concepts had to be meaningless words for you before you dumped the cult.

It is just not believable that upon leaving the Scientology cult a person became unable to discern the meaning of words that had been discerned just moments before.

But even though these words are meaningless to you, that does not mean they are meaningless to anyone else, I’m sure you would agree.

Why do you consider it to be a valid label to be taken so seriously?

What label? Where did I say this label was valid?

I am saying that labeling SPs as equivalent or roughly equivalent to sociopaths or psychopaths is invalid labeling.

Of course it's disgusting and nasty, it's devastated many lives and will continue to until the cult is dead ...

Good. So you do get some of the meaning of the SP doctrine.

but that doesn't seem to be the reason you are speaking of it here.

:confused2:

But that is exactly the reason.

The other key reason is that it is on-topic here.

If Marty and Mike refuse to do as you ask, does it really matter now?

Yes.

I imagine most exes know that what happened to Gerry did actually happen and are disgusted by it but also realise that Marty and Mike were victims too.

There is an assumption here that Gerry and I do not recognize that Mike and Marty were victims too. That is patently unfair.

Realizing that Marty and Mike were victims too takes no time. It is also irrelevant to their telling the truth about what they did to Gerry that disgusts people.

When the fact that Marty and Mike were victimized is used as an excuse for their criminal behavior, or justify further lies and the furthering of injustices, then that excuse or justification should be exposed for what it is.

Current scientologists probably wouldn't know what to think or feel about this issue, they can't handle the truth ... yet.

Fine.

I doubt the (never in) public care one way or the other (they may find it entertaining but I doubt they actually care).

That is, however, no reason that the public should be kept in ignorance, or not urged to care.

You and Gerry do know the truth and say an apology is not required so why do you want an almost scientology like "acknowledgment/conditions trip/overts disclosure" from Marty and Mike?

We do not want that. Gerry has stated his simple request several times:

Gerry Armstrong said:
1. Communicate to me;

2. Debrief to me and my legal representatives;

3. Execute declarations that contain facts elicited in the debrief;

4. Make himself available to testify in any legal proceedings to correct the injustices or situations he helped make.

From Marty did answer.

The reason Gerry seeks that is to correct ongoing crimes and injustices including in the IRS deal.

What would it really achieve (apart from shaming them)?

Justice.

Are you bothered by the prospect of them becoming some kind of heroes here due to what they are currently involved in because that would be understandable, it must grate badly on you both ... but here (ESMB) I doubt they will ever be seen as "heroes" by most of us in the long term.

I don't understand your sentence here.

Is it the first step to something more or is the correction of lies and injustice all you want from them?

I don’t know what first step you’re talking about.

What Gerry and I seek is the end of endless injustices. The first step as far as we are concerned with Rathbun and Rinder, is what Gerry specified in his points 1-4 above.

If you truly want the acknowledgement of wrongdoing corrected so you can use it to appeal the potential jail sentence and fines awaiting Gerry if he sets foot in the US, why would either of you ask for assistance like this and via a public letter, you must know it will never achieve anything but more upset?

:)

No that’s completely wrong. That is not at all why Gerry has asked Rathbun and Rinder to communicate and tell the truth.

Only very irresponsible people would act like Rathbun and Rinder have. But there is a chance always that they could have a change of heart. It would not occur, however, because Gerry or I asked for their help, or indentified the fact areas in which the help is requested. Rathbun or Rinder or any Scientologist similarly placed would only have a change of heart by realizing the evil they had done for evil purposes to unevil people, and making a heartfelt effort to repair what they had done to those people.
 

prosecco

Patron Meritorious
There seems to be quite a bit of history here which I just don't understand.

However, Lawrence Wright says that one of the aims of the film, 'Going Clear' is for the IRS to examine scientology's tax exemption status. Seems to me that once this process commences, it will be easier to get information about the sequence of events leading up to the tax exemption status as there will be lots of media interest in addition to the point that the corporate veil has been pierced.
 
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