Originally posted by Caroline (and snipped).
Caroline,
When did they lie about the SP doctrine?
I identified a number of instances. Take for example, Rathbun as writer and Rinder as editor in
Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior:
Page 105:
such an individual was labeled a suppressive person – roughly equivalent to a sociopath or psychopath.
Page 164:
A suppressive person, in Scientology vernacular, is roughly equivalent to a sociopath – a conscienceless individual who could put on a convincing front of wanting others to thrive, while harboring the secret goal of destroying everyone in his or her vicinity. Hubbard had written and lectured on the subject rather extensively in the sixties. Ironically, thirty years later the very mental health profession that condemned Hubbard during his life would describe the sociopath or psychopath in very much the same terms Hubbard had in the fifties and sixties. A comparison between Hubbard’s writings and lectures, and current leading mental health texts on the subject bears this out.
Rathbun, Mark (2013-05-28). Memoirs of a Scientology Warrior. Amazon Books. Kindle Edition.
This is as dishonest a pair of lies as claiming that a Jew is roughly equivalent to a sociopath or psychopath. Or a Jew is a conscienceless individual who could put on a convincing front of wanting others to thrive, while harboring the secret goal of destroying everyone in his or her vicinity. Or that mental health profession that condemned Hitler during his life would describe the Jew in very much the same terms Hitler had in the thirties and forties. Or that a comparison between Hitler’s writings and lectures, and current leading mental health texts on the subject bears this out.
The level of "logic" Rathbun and Rinder are using goes something like: SPs exist. Sociopaths exist. Therefore SPs are sociopaths. Jews exist. Sociopaths exist. Therefore Jews are sociopaths. And since Jews are sociopaths, they have sociopaths’ characteristics. QED.
Do you genuinely care about the cults "SP doctrine and SP class" (whatever that is) labeling?
It is not clear what you wrote. If you do not understand the SP doctrine and the SP class, please study Gerry’s paper that carefully and simply explains these subjects.
[video]https://youtu.be/9RPPjOSFKok[/video]
Transcript:
The Suppressive Person Doctrine On Trial: Opening Statement by Gerry Armstrong
But, do I genuinely care about the SP doctrine, the SP class and our black PRing and fair gaming? Yes!
Does anyone (once out) give it a moments thought?
Yes.
Do some people give a moment’s thought the the Nazis Jewish doctrine and the Jewish class and the black PRing and fair gaming of Jews? Yes!
It's just a few meaningless words to me and has been since the day I dumped the cult.
Clearly these concepts had to be meaningless words for you before you dumped the cult.
It is just not believable that upon leaving the Scientology cult a person became unable to discern the meaning of words that had been discerned just moments before.
But even though these words are meaningless to you, that does not mean they are meaningless to anyone else, I’m sure you would agree.
Why do you consider it to be a valid label to be taken so seriously?
What label? Where did I say this label was valid?
I am saying that labeling SPs as equivalent or roughly equivalent to sociopaths or psychopaths is
invalid labeling.
Of course it's disgusting and nasty, it's devastated many lives and will continue to until the cult is dead ...
Good. So you do get some of the meaning of the SP doctrine.
but that doesn't seem to be the reason you are speaking of it here.
:confused2:
But that is exactly the reason.
The other key reason is that it is on-topic here.
If Marty and Mike refuse to do as you ask, does it really matter now?
Yes.
I imagine most exes know that what happened to Gerry did actually happen and are disgusted by it but also realise that Marty and Mike were victims too.
There is an assumption here that Gerry and I do not recognize that Mike and Marty were victims too. That is patently unfair.
Realizing that Marty and Mike were victims too takes no time. It is also irrelevant to their telling the truth about what they did to Gerry that disgusts people.
When the fact that Marty and Mike were victimized is used as an excuse for their criminal behavior, or justify further lies and the furthering of injustices, then that excuse or justification should be exposed for what it is.
Current scientologists probably wouldn't know what to think or feel about this issue, they can't handle the truth ... yet.
Fine.
I doubt the (never in) public care one way or the other (they may find it entertaining but I doubt they actually care).
That is, however, no reason that the public should be kept in ignorance, or not urged to care.
You and Gerry do know the truth and say an apology is not required so why do you want an almost scientology like "acknowledgment/conditions trip/overts disclosure" from Marty and Mike?
We do not want that. Gerry has stated his simple request several times:
Gerry Armstrong said:
1. Communicate to me;
2. Debrief to me and my legal representatives;
3. Execute declarations that contain facts elicited in the debrief;
4. Make himself available to testify in any legal proceedings to correct the injustices or situations he helped make.
From
Marty did answer.
The reason Gerry seeks that is to correct ongoing crimes and injustices including in the IRS deal.
What would it really achieve (apart from shaming them)?
Justice.
Are you bothered by the prospect of them becoming some kind of heroes here due to what they are currently involved in because that would be understandable, it must grate badly on you both ... but here (ESMB) I doubt they will ever be seen as "heroes" by most of us in the long term.
I don't understand your sentence here.
Is it the first step to something more or is the correction of lies and injustice all you want from them?
I don’t know what first step you’re talking about.
What Gerry and I seek is the end of endless injustices. The first step as far as we are concerned with Rathbun and Rinder, is what Gerry specified in his points 1-4 above.
If you truly want the acknowledgement of wrongdoing corrected so you can use it to appeal the potential jail sentence and fines awaiting Gerry if he sets foot in the US, why would either of you ask for assistance like this and via a public letter, you must know it will never achieve anything but more upset?
No that’s completely wrong. That is not at all why Gerry has asked Rathbun and Rinder to communicate and tell the truth.
Only very irresponsible people would act like Rathbun and Rinder have. But there is a chance always that they could have a change of heart. It would not occur, however, because Gerry or I asked for their help, or indentified the fact areas in which the help is requested. Rathbun or Rinder or any Scientologist similarly placed would only have a change of heart by realizing the evil they had done for evil purposes to unevil people, and making a heartfelt effort to repair what they had done to those people.