The Tao and Scientology

iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
Forgive my long posting here but I have a point to make and this seemed the best forum to do it in. I'm new on this site and I'm not saying anything about myself or my own personal story because I still have friends and loved ones involved in the Church who I'd prefer to stay connected with for now. So this is the best you'll get out of me for now.

Marty has been posting lately about the Tao Te Ching and its adoption in his practice. I am not a die-hard follower of Marty. Hell, at this point I'm not a die-hard follower of anyone after the betrayal and deceit that I discovered was Scientology. I'm a little too jaded at this point to start putting my blind trust in anyone again.

However, there are truths to be found out there which I believe are useful for anyone to lead a better and happier life. Say what you will about Hubbard (and I could say a lot both good and bad), I will not agree to throw every single thing he ever said into the fire just because I disagree with some of his rules and regulations. One thing I do agree with Hubbard about is that wisdom is free for the taking and philosophy should not be an ivory tower activity.

I just came across this quote from the Tao Te Ching (while reading a paper about web design, of all things) and it seemed to explain some things to me which I thought might be applicable to what Scientology has become, so I'm sharing it here for everyone. Do with it what you will. I think it describes some of what has gone wrong with Scientology. Scientology philosophy was originally a much softer and accepting system than it has become now. I think everyone here was drawn into Scientology to some degree because of that attitude of freedom and acceptance and the idea that "hey, you actually are okay and you are a good person and you have worth and value." That is a powerful thing to tell someone and it implies a great degree of acceptance - what Hubbard calls 'granting beingness.' Originally, Scientology was all about this.

For me, and I think for many on ESMB, when that acceptance was later betrayed and rejected - through rabid enforcement of KSW, squashing one's own ideas and originations, incorrect labelling and enforced disconnection and all the other claptrap nonsense that Scientology has morphed into - there is a tremendous feeling of betrayal and rejection. Guess I'm waxing philosophic today.

So here's the quote I found that inspired all this:

“A newborn is soft and tender,
A crone, hard and stiff.
Plants and animals, in life, are supple and succulent;
In death, withered and dry.
So softness and tenderness are attributes of life,
And hardness and stiffness, attributes of death.”

Tao Te Ching; 76 Flexibility


Scientology has definitely taken on the attributes of death and is not really long for this world. All of us see it and the rest of the world is catching up fast with the increased attention in the media that Scientology has been getting recently. They could always cease their own dwindling spiral and turn the thing around if they would just truly cancel the destructive practices and put back in what was working back in the 70s and 80s. But I think we all agree that is never going to happen, not just because of the currently church leadership but also because of the faults within its administrative system that prevent it from actually expanding.

Maybe in this thing on the Tao, Marty has a point.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
They could always cease their own dwindling spiral and turn the thing around if they would just truly cancel the destructive practices and put back in what was working back in the 70s and 80s. But I think we all agree that is never going to happen, not just because of the currently church leadership but also because of the faults within its administrative system that prevent it from actually expanding.

The main things that "worked" in the 1970s and 1980s were 1) there had NOT yet been a long record of Scientology NOT producing what it claimed that it could, 2) there had NOT yet been a long record of the institutionalized abuse that existed at ALL times during its history, and 3) Scientology could keep its many hidden activities hidden (which it cannot do today due to the Internet).

Back in the 1970s and early 1980s, Scientologists were still largely insulated from the many NEGATIVE REALITIES about Scientology, and they could continue along naive, misdirected, tricked and swindled. Things will NEVER be able to revert to how it was "then". The Internet makes that utterly impossible. These days, the TRUTH about Scientology cannot be so easily suppressed and controlled (by the Church of Scientology) as it was back in those "glorious wonderful earlier days".
 

Loohan

Am I Mettaya?
What i see as the primary conflict between Scn and Taoism is, Taoism is about humility instead of having a galloping ego.
It's about hiding your light so as not to be conspicuous if you are enlightened.

It is the opposite of LRH's advice to be like the Teutonic knights (who were evil BTW).

Therefore the sages hold to the one as an example for the world
Without flaunting themselves – and so are seen clearly
Without presuming themselves – and so are distinguished
Without praising themselves – and so have merit
Without boasting about themselves – and so are lasting

Chapter 24
Those who are on tiptoes cannot stand
Those who straddle cannot walk
Those who flaunt themselves are not clear
Those who presume themselves are not distinguished
Those who praise themselves have no merit
Those who boast about themselves do not last

Chapter 29
Those who wish to take the world and control it
I see that they cannot succeed
The world is a sacred instrument
One cannot control it
The one who controls it will fail
The one who grasps it will lose

Etc. LRH even said somewhere that the only argument Scn has with the Tao is its concept of modesty. Or something like that.


Edit: actually i think it was economy, not modesty. Dox anyone?
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

I think everyone here was drawn into Scientology to some degree because of that attitude of freedom and acceptance and the idea that "hey, you actually are okay and you are a good person and you have worth and value." That is a powerful thing to tell someone and it implies a great degree of acceptance - what Hubbard calls 'granting beingness.' Originally, Scientology was all about this.

-snip-

A small sampling of Hubbard's early writings:

"Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same. The entire function of man is to survive. Not for 'what' [any ideal] but just to survive... I turned the thing up [the 'dynamic principle of existence: Survive!'], so it's up to me to survive in a big way.

"Personal immortality is only to be gained through the printed word, barred note, or painted canvas or hard granite [or stainless steel]. Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all the books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal [hidden agenda] as far as I am concerned. Things which stand too consistently in my way make me nervous.

"It's a pretty big job. In a hundred years Roosevelt will have been forgotten - which gives some idea of the magnitude of my attempt...

"Psychiatrists, reaching the high of the dusty desk, tell us that Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and Alexander were madmen. I know they're maligning some very intelligent gentleman...

"I can make Napoleon look like a punk."


L. Ron Hubbard, 'Excalibur' letter, from 1938



"Your writing has a deep hypnotic effect on people and they are always pleased with what you write."

"Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler."


L. Ron Hubbard, from his "Affirmations', 1946


In October 1950, Dr. J.A. Winter, who had written the 'Introduction' to 'Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health', resigned in protest from the Hubbard Dianetic Foundation. He described the ideals presented by Hubbard as "lip service."


In March of 1951, John Campbell, publisher of 'Astounding Science Fiction', also resigned in protest against the "cult" of Dianetics.


Meanwhile, Hubbard was busy writing letters to the FBI describing many of his former Dianetic associates as communists and communist sympathizers.


"No rights of any kind... Dispose of quietly and without sorrow." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Science of Survival', 1951


"Ruin utterly." "Always attack." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Manual on Dissemination of Material', 1955


"Dianetics and Scientology are self-protecting sciences. If one attacks them one attacks all the know-how of the mind. It caves in the bank. It's gruesome sometimes.

"At this instance there are men hiding in terror on Earth because they found out what they were attacking. There are men dead because they attacked us - for instance Dr. Joe Winter [wrote Introduction to 'DMSMH', and the book, 'A Doctor's Report on Dianetics' with an Introduction by Fritz Perls]. He simply realized what he did and died. There are men bankrupt because they attacked us - [Don] Purcell, Ridgeway, [publisher of 'DMSMH'] Ceppos." L. Ron Hubbard, 'HCO Manual of Justice', 1959


"Find or Manufacture enough threat." L. Ron Hubbard, 'Department of Government Affairs', 1960


"Have you ever had unkind thoughts about L. Ron Hubbard?" L. Ron Hubbard, Security Check, 1961


And jumping ahead...


"I am not interested in wog morality... I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher," L. Ron Hubbard, 'Discipline, SPs and Admin', 1969


Welcome to ESMB. :)
 

iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
I'm happy to have people on this board tell me how wrong I am about Hubbard but I think it's a bit of a waste of time because I made it clear in my first post (and other posts I've put up) that I am no fan or friend of LRH. I know the guy developed a corrupt and authoritarian system that takes advantage of people. That doesn't mean there wasn't something about it that I found likable and workable at first. I don't think it's right that just because I put up that I agree with some part of Scientology, that someone is compelled to make nothing of everything Hubbard ever said or wrote. Even Hitler got it right on a couple of things early on, but saying that doesn't mean I want the Nazi party to come back.

What I was trying to do with my original post in this thread was merely state what MY experience was that drew me in to Scientology and I think that is what drew others in too. No one would have gotten involved with Scientology if they knew from the beginning how corrupt and insane it is. There was SOMETHING in it that attracted them. For me, a big part of the attraction was the concept I stated in my OP, that you can be granted beingness, get along with others and that those are good things. I still think that is a valid concept, although not one that you will experience any more in the practice of Scientology.

And I just wanted to share that I found something in the Tao that I thought related that concept way better. But it's undeniable that my first exposure to the concept of "granting beingness" and "living in harmony with others" was in Scientology. Maybe Hubbard ripped it off wholecloth from the Tao or from somewhere else. At this point, I don't care. I'm just trying to make some sense of the last 30 years of my life and hope that I can walk away from the experience having gained something rather than lost everything. Because with what I've discovered over the past couple of years (having been studying and reading everything I can get my eyes on via the Internet and elsewhere) is that I've been living a lie for a very long time. I'd like to know that not EVERYTHING was a lie and that not EVERYONE I ever interacted with in Scientology (or out) had it in for me or was trying to rip me off. As Jason Beghe said in one of his videos, even after a year of being out of the Church he was "still decompressing". So am I. And I'm hoping that through posting on this notice board, I will be among others who will understand what I'm going through and can help me through it.

Thanks everyone for reading and understanding. I am glad that I found this message board as this is one place I can speak my mind freely on this subject. And if I come across as defensive or make-wrong or anything like that, that is not my intention.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I'm happy to have people on this board tell me how wrong I am about Hubbard but I think it's a bit of a waste of time because I made it clear in my first post (and other posts I've put up) that I am no fan or friend of LRH. I know the guy developed a corrupt and authoritarian system that takes advantage of people. That doesn't mean there wasn't something about it that I found likable and workable at first. I don't think it's right that just because I put up that I agree with some part of Scientology, that someone is compelled to make nothing of everything Hubbard ever said or wrote. Even Hitler got it right on a couple of things early on, but saying that doesn't mean I want the Nazi party to come back.

What I was trying to do with my original post in this thread was merely state what MY experience was that drew me in to Scientology and I think that is what drew others in too. No one would have gotten involved with Scientology if they knew from the beginning how corrupt and insane it is. There was SOMETHING in it that attracted them. For me, a big part of the attraction was the concept I stated in my OP, that you can be granted beingness, get along with others and that those are good things. I still think that is a valid concept, although not one that you will experience any more in the practice of Scientology.

And I just wanted to share that I found something in the Tao that I thought related that concept way better. But it's undeniable that my first exposure to the concept of "granting beingness" and "living in harmony with others" was in Scientology. Maybe Hubbard ripped it off wholecloth from the Tao or from somewhere else. At this point, I don't care. I'm just trying to make some sense of the last 30 years of my life and hope that I can walk away from the experience having gained something rather than lost everything. Because with what I've discovered over the past couple of years (having been studying and reading everything I can get my eyes on via the Internet and elsewhere) is that I've been living a lie for a very long time. I'd like to know that not EVERYTHING was a lie and that not EVERYONE I ever interacted with in Scientology (or out) had it in for me or was trying to rip me off. As Jason Beghe said in one of his videos, even after a year of being out of the Church he was "still decompressing". So am I. And I'm hoping that through posting on this notice board, I will be among others who will understand what I'm going through and can help me through it.

Thanks everyone for reading and understanding. I am glad that I found this message board as this is one place I can speak my mind freely on this subject. And if I come across as defensive or make-wrong or anything like that, that is not my intention.

You're doing very well.

Some of your descriptions of those things that drew people into Scientology sound like "Layer One" of the "Scientological Onion":

http://exscn.net/content/view/178/105/index.html
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
What i see as the primary conflict between Scn and Taoism is, Taoism is about humility instead of having a galloping ego.
It's about hiding your light so as not to be conspicuous if you are enlightened.

It is the opposite of LRH's advice to be like the Teutonic knights (who were evil BTW).

Those who wish to take the world and control it
I see that they cannot succeed
The world is a sacred instrument
One cannot control it
The one who controls it will fail
The one who grasps it will lose

Etc. LRH even said somewhere that the only argument Scn has with the Tao is its concept of modesty. Or something like that.

[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]

Edit: actually i think it was economy, not modesty. Dox anyone?

Well said
I second :thumbsup:
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm happy to have people on this board tell me how wrong I am about Hubbard but I think it's a bit of a waste of time because I made it clear in my first post (and other posts I've put up) that I am no fan or friend of LRH. I know the guy developed a corrupt and authoritarian system that takes advantage of people. That doesn't mean there wasn't something about it that I found likable and workable at first. I don't think it's right that just because I put up that I agree with some part of Scientology, that someone is compelled to make nothing of everything Hubbard ever said or wrote. Even Hitler got it right on a couple of things early on, but saying that doesn't mean I want the Nazi party to come back.

What I was trying to do with my original post in this thread was merely state what MY experience was that drew me in to Scientology and I think that is what drew others in too. No one would have gotten involved with Scientology if they knew from the beginning how corrupt and insane it is. There was SOMETHING in it that attracted them. For me, a big part of the attraction was the concept I stated in my OP, that you can be granted beingness, get along with others and that those are good things. I still think that is a valid concept, although not one that you will experience any more in the practice of Scientology.

And I just wanted to share that I found something in the Tao that I thought related that concept way better. But it's undeniable that my first exposure to the concept of "granting beingness" and "living in harmony with others" was in Scientology. Maybe Hubbard ripped it off wholecloth from the Tao or from somewhere else. At this point, I don't care. I'm just trying to make some sense of the last 30 years of my life and hope that I can walk away from the experience having gained something rather than lost everything. Because with what I've discovered over the past couple of years (having been studying and reading everything I can get my eyes on via the Internet and elsewhere) is that I've been living a lie for a very long time. I'd like to know that not EVERYTHING was a lie and that not EVERYONE I ever interacted with in Scientology (or out) had it in for me or was trying to rip me off. As Jason Beghe said in one of his videos, even after a year of being out of the Church he was "still decompressing". So am I. And I'm hoping that through posting on this notice board, I will be among others who will understand what I'm going through and can help me through it.

Thanks everyone for reading and understanding. I am glad that I found this message board as this is one place I can speak my mind freely on this subject. And if I come across as defensive or make-wrong or anything like that, that is not my intention.

"I'm just trying to make some sense of the last 30 years of my life and hope that I can walk away from the experience having gained something rather than lost everything"

I can totally relate! Yes, there are things that Scientology presented that were truths and it helped. I have done research too - and Hubbard copied the truths and sprinkled them in with a whole lot of lies. The truths were the glue that stuck us to the lies and kept us in for so long.

The "love bombing" the staff pour on the noob is very evil. After a while, once money was on account, I noticed the "love bombing" stopped. No one was coming to my house to help me anymore....just the IAS and Registrars :omg:. I thought this was "because I need to be more responsible". Now that I look back on it - it was bait and switch. I was already responsible - my life was good! I just needed a little help in a few areas! But the truths mixed with the lies had me in a state of Confusion - and this technique is what Scientology uses to control their members and pour on the Hubbardisms to further control. I found it better for me to not try to pick out the good stuff and try to use it because twisted around it in very covert and manipulative ways - are the lies which all intend to control - badly!

I think it is good that you acknowledge the "truths" of what you got out of Scientology. For me, I had done enough of other philosophy's and religions to know Hubbard copied them and used the good stuff to bait. That is what helped me the most - just throw the entire subject, books, tapes, e-meter - all of it in the trash and find a philosophy or religion that helps! I have noticed that if I don't get rid of all Scientology in my mind - I keep thinking through the Scientological filter I bought and paid for...and it is evil.

For instance, my friend is complaining about his spouse - Scientologist's think "natter = overts". Normal people think - this is marriage and it can be hard.

It is exhausting trying to separate the wheat from the chaff when the chaff is so disgustingly poisonous.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
Although I know very little of the Tao, I see it as a holistic and expanding view and participation in the worlds of 'nature'. Where as I see scientology as a CONstrictive decreasing view leading into the narrowing and confined participation sole trap of a greedy and lost soul and his progeny.

I would suggest that any workability or truths of scientology were plagiarized and injected as a solicitation tool by El Ron, who then usurped and used the good will and tao of its participants as he and his organization/alter-identity gradually over the decades tightened the vice of the CON-troll KSW until this very epoch, wherein we see the whole creation constricting itself into oblivion and its participants exiting to recover their lives into the Tao.

And I would say that the growth and 'apparent wins' which were created as evidence by the participants and what THEY and their Elan Vital, not what EL CON, brought to it's poisoned and deceptively facaded trap, are what is sometimes heralded as the good old days.o

Yes, one could say the good old days were when the "theta" coming into the orgs was greater than the usurping and constricting of it and that the 'tech' itself spotty at best in its utility or claimed results.

Just a view from the side view mirror before the train from Venus rumbles on down the track.
 

iHateDuplicity

Patron with Honors
I can totally relate! Yes, there are things that Scientology presented that were truths and it helped. I have done research too - and Hubbard copied the truths and sprinkled them in with a whole lot of lies. The truths were the glue that stuck us to the lies and kept us in for so long.

I have noticed that if I don't get rid of all Scientology in my mind - I keep thinking through the Scientological filter I bought and paid for...and it is evil. For instance, my friend is complaining about his spouse - Scientologist's think "natter = overts". Normal people think - this is marriage and it can be hard. It is exhausting trying to separate the wheat from the chaff when the chaff is so disgustingly poisonous.

Yes, Idle Morgue, that is EXACTLY what I'm going through these days. That "decompression" period where I'm trying to re-adjust my thinking on so many levels. Every day more and more stuff keeps coming up. And like Paul Haggis said in an interview, I think, it's hard to realize that you've actually be in a cult for the last X years! You know? I certainly didn't think that when I was in it! I thought I was working my ass off to do the best job I could to save the planet and the universe against an awful lot of aberration and suppression and all the rest.

Getting back to my OP, it's quotes like that from the Tao that give me hope that there is still harmony and acceptability and the hope of a better life for me and others out there. I'm coming more and more to the realization that Scientology is NOT what it says it is, Hubbard was an extraordinarily good liar and con man, and I've still got a ways to go to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Because, yes, Idle Morgue, some of that chaff is pretty poisonous!
 

Knows

Gold Meritorious Patron
The main things that "worked" in the 1970s and 1980s were 1) there had NOT yet been a long record of Scientology NOT producing what it claimed that it could, 2) there had NOT yet been a long record of the institutionalized abuse that existed at ALL times during its history, and 3) Scientology could keep its many hidden activities hidden (which it cannot do today due to the Internet).

Back in the 1970s and early 1980s, Scientologists were still largely insulated from the many NEGATIVE REALITIES about Scientology, and they could continue along naive, misdirected, tricked and swindled. Things will NEVER be able to revert to how it was "then". The Internet makes that utterly impossible. These days, the TRUTH about Scientology cannot be so easily suppressed and controlled (by the Church of Scientology) as it was back in those "glorious wonderful earlier days".

Good post. Today, they are still playing that trump card "we are a new religion figuring it all out". No - Scientology has been around for 64 years and it has gotten very SOLID! It is dead, hard and cracking! The members are zombies and robots that cannot even think for themselves. It is worse than slavery - if you notice slaves don't get hard and callous like Scientology slaves because they know they are slaves - it is not hidden from them. Many slaves took care of the children of the plantation and were loving and kind to them. Scientologist's become hard and callous because that is the only way to BE so that Scientology survives.
 
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