The Truth about Debbie Cook as Captain of Flag

freethinker

Sponsor
Did they report that she helped people in the Hole? That was the question.

Dave had a woman kept locked up in a room until she died is that any less than pedophilia?

It could be bullshit and it could be true and it could be embellished but Marty was accused of the choking that DM did so who is to say what is a lie here?

If you don't want to believe it that's fine but Scientology is capable of producing the results listed so for me, at least some of it is plausible. She isn't a saint.

There were other witnesses to what happened to Debbie Cook in the Hole - who also reported the event long before she did.

You and I babysat people together. Would YOU have procured a child to have sex with David Miscavige? Yes, that is hard for me to believe.

I'm only surprised that this person didn't also claim she was a prostitute with venereal disease.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Did they report that she helped people in the Hole? That was the question.

Dave had a woman kept locked up in a room until she died is that any less than pedophilia?

It could be bullshit and it could be true and it could be embellished but Marty was accused of the choking that DM did so who is to say what is a lie here?

If you don't want to believe it that's fine but Scientology is capable of producing the results listed so for me, at least some of it is plausible. She isn't a saint.

Read what I actually wrote.
 

Dean Blair

Silver Meritorious Patron
Who is Mirna Minkoff? When Debbie Cook sent her email out to everyone under the sun, most people knew who she was. Now there is a post by Mirna Minkoff which alleges all kinds of bad deeds and I just don't know who she is or if she is credible. For some reason the post on OCMB said that she can't post here. These questions came to me after reading Purple Rain's post.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
It isn't Mirna's allegation, it's an allegation sent to Mirna according to Mirna so Mirna's third hand or originator or....
Who is Mirna Minkoff? When Debbie Cook sent her email out to everyone under the sun, most people knew who she was. Now there is a post by Mirna Minkoff which alleges all kinds of bad deeds and I just don't know who she is or if she is credible. For some reason the post on OCMB said that she can't post here. These questions came to me after reading Purple Rain's post.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Who is Mirna Minkoff? When Debbie Cook sent her email out to everyone under the sun, most people knew who she was. Now there is a post by Mirna Minkoff which alleges all kinds of bad deeds and I just don't know who she is or if she is credible. For some reason the post on OCMB said that she can't post here. These questions came to me after reading Purple Rain's post.

What Cook's email did was create doubt in the minds of Scientologists. People are still leaving as that seed flourishes and bears fruit. She is a major thorn in their side BECAUSE she is credible to Scientologists. And we can't have that.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
No where does it say Debbie did any procuring for child molesting, I don't even know where that came from. It only said child molestors were sometimes protected in the SO/ at Flag, victims blamed for "pulling it in" and things covered up to "prevent flaps" - which I don't think is anything new in the CoS and there have been many other allegations of similar BS for years.

Someone thought the comment about "children for DM from 7 am to 2am" referred to something sexual, but on OCMB Mirna clarified that it was only in reference to children having to work crazy hours - much like messengers did for LRH. It was a child labor laws issue, not about molesting children.

Might help if some of you would actually go read the thread at OCMB. The org post explains why MM didn't post this here - but said they did try to. They posted that the statement quoted in this thread's OP came from a former SO who sent it to them shortly after the Debbie Cook email but it wasn't made public ESP for the reason of not giving the cult any added ammunition during the court fight.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Do you think it is possible that Debbie did any of those things in that letter?

Despite the good that Debbie's email did, I just don't buy that she did it for Scientologists.

Do you think she would make herself a target solely to help other people knowing full well she would end up in court for speaking out?

Do you think she thought the email would be ignored by DM or not taken seriously?

Sounds like the third party law.

Rumors. :duh:
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
No where does it say Debbie did any procuring for child molesting, I don't even know where that came from. It only said child molestors were sometimes protected in the SO/ at Flag, victims blamed for "pulling it in" and things covered up to "prevent flaps" - which I don't think is anything new in the CoS and there have been many other allegations of similar BS for years.

Someone thought the comment about "children for DM from 7 am to 2am" referred to something sexual, but on OCMB Mirna clarified that it was only in reference to children having to work crazy hours - much like messengers did for LRH. It was a child labor laws issue, not about molesting children.

Might help if some of you would actually go read the thread at OCMB. The org post explains why MM didn't post this here - but said they did try to. They posted that the statement quoted in this thread's OP came from a former SO who sent it to them shortly after the Debbie Cook email but it wasn't made public ESP for the reason of not giving the cult any added ammunition during the court fight.

I actually did go to the thread on OCMB, but I can only see five posts, none of which said what you mentioned.

Edit: Oh, yes, I see what you mean.

7 am to 2 am is correct. There was no consideration of child labor laws or a problem seen with children working 20 hours straight. It only happened at one to two weeks at a time when COB visited, but it did happen.

Edit to the edit: So basically people can vouch for Mirna as a source is what I am checking. Yes?
 

Gib

Crusader
Do you think it is possible that Debbie did any of those things in that letter?

Despite the good that Debbie's email did, I just don't buy that she did it for Scientologists.

Do you think she would make herself a target solely to help other people knowing full well she would end up in court for speaking out?

Do you think she thought the email would be ignored by DM or not taken seriously?

Here's what I think.

question no. 1. yes

highlighted in red, I think she wrote the letter to get people to start thinking and observing and looking at the current scene in scientology, you know stat comparison.

Question no. 2: yes

Question no. 3: no
 

freethinker

Sponsor
OK, I don't happen to think she did it for the current scene in Scientology, I think she did it for herself as a calculated move.


The one who really knows is Debbie and possibly Wayne.

Here's what I think.

question no. 1. yes

highlighted in red, I think she wrote the letter to get people to start thinking and observing and looking at the current scene in scientology, you know stat comparison.

Question no. 2: yes

Question no. 3: no
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
"Gave" children to COB?

What in the hell does that mean? Is that meant to be sexual innuendo?
 

Gib

Crusader
OK, I don't happen to think she did it for the current scene in Scientology, I think she did it for herself as a calculated move.


The one who really knows is Debbie and possibly Wayne.

I disagree because her email message in 2012 sent out got me to look, question things in scientology. (mind you, she was out, and I was in. Or, I didn't know she had left the SO when I got her message).

And because I was aware of her status as Captain, as OT, as highly trained,

why she got my agreement that something was wrong in scientology (which I had observed, obnosed) and because of her status in scientology made me feel wonderful that another of her status, rank, had observed the same thing.

Mind you, when I got her message I was a still in, and I am communicating here, now, from the same point of view,

But realize, I now think it is all, scientolgy , a hellvahoax.

I am just telling you my POV from when I was in and got her message.

Do you understand?

edit:

Freethinker,

do you realize the COS sued her? Debbie did not sue the COS
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Did they report that she helped people in the Hole? That was the question.

This was the first place I read about Debbie's conduct during the incident I mentioned in the Hole. It was a post by Marty Rathbun all the way back from March 2010 - long before Debbie's email and court testimony - on the scientology cult website, titled Debbie Cook - 45 Days in the Hole.

In this post, Marty said:

One day DM announced to the assembled in the Hole that Marc Yager (one time CO CMO INT/WDC Chairman) and Guillaume Lesevre (one time ED INT) were homosexual and were engaged in a gay relationship. To those who have read my full blog and Scientology-cult.com you’d know that by that time, DM had been alleging this to the entire crew for ten years. But, for Debbie, Kristie (exCO FCB) and Heber, it was news.

Debbie was there when DM announced that Tom Cruise would come the next day to “punch you guys out” if the one hundred Holee’s failed to get a confession out of Guillaume and Marc.

When DM left Jenny Linsen Devocht, Angie Blankenship, and Lisa Schroer (who were DM’s pets at the time, sort of in charge of the Hole while being Holed themselves) decided that the Holees collectively will “give some people some black eyes before Tom has to.” Russ Bellin (once CO CST) lead the charge of the bigger and stronger men in the hole who began the beat downs of Yager, Guillaume and Ray Mithoff (once Snr CS INT). The crew battered Marc, Guillaume and Ray. In the psychotic frenzy even Norman Starkey and Heber sustained some collateral damage. Debbie managed not to participate in the carnage.

When DM returned for a report, Lisa Schroer (who remained a DM pet throughout given her position as CO of Gold, that handles the only product he gives a damn about, Events) in her inimitable fashion, started embellishing the forced confessions allegedly gotten from Guillaume and Yager while under legally recognized conditions of torture. Lisa dutifully reported that Guillaume and Yager had in fact confessed to having a homosexual relationship.

Debbie tried to correct the report, interjecting that they never really confessed as Lisa was reporting. DM shut her up in a heartbeat. Once DM left, Lisa Schroer , who was a little more in charge of the Hole at the time than Jenny and Angie, briefed the Holees what a treasonous “bitch” Debbie was for “defending” Marc and Guillaume. She was accused of being “mutual out ruds” for having sided with the victims of torture. That included loud accusations from Lisa, Angie and Jenny that Debbie “must be a lesbo.”

For the next twelve hours Debbie was made to stand in a large garbage can and face one hundred people screaming at her demanding a confession as to her “homosexual tendancies”. While this was going on water was poured over her head. Signs were put around Debbie’s neck, one marked in magic marker “LESBO” while this torture proceeded. Debbie was repeatedly slapped across the face by other women in the room during the interrogation. Debbie never did break. And fittingly she was rewarded with what turned out to be a break in another sense of the word.

When I confirmed all of these facts with multiple sources, I knew without a doubt there was no turning back for me.

- See more at: http://www.scientology-cult.com/debbie-cook-45-days-in-the-hole.html#sthash.NjbNYnFP.dpuf

So I just thought she did show a lot of integrity and courage in that incident - and, yes, she did try and help them.
 

Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
This whole thing really bothers me.

Debbie Cook has only just recently come back on Facebook and is making herself known again, and then out of the blue comes this pages-long rant about her, claiming that she is guilty of some very heinous and illegal acts. There is no source for this document, no name, no face. And despite whatever it says in the rant itself, there is not one bit of evidence or dox for any of this. No names of witnesses, no photos or documentation. I've looked and I can't find any dox anywhere on this.

Doesn't the timing of this make it seem kind of suspicious all by itself? Purple Rain, Gib and a few others can see that. I wish everyone else could too. This whole thing reads like an OSA Fair Game op 100% out of the Art of War playbook. It is written in such a way as to distract all attention from COB and put all attention on Debbie. It takes great pains to repeatedly point out what an evil slime Debbie is, and totally downplays any real world influence of Miscavige, CMO and RTC. It's all on Debbie. Anyone who thinks that the Captain of an org, even FSO, gets such a free pass from CMO and RTC Reps is not living in the real world and doesn't know what the life of an org CO is really like. I have years of experience with this and I do know what their lives are like, who runs them and what kind of direction they get 24/7. It's almost impossible to imagine because there's no other real world equivalent to what being an org CO is like. You just wouldn't believe it until you've lived it.

The thing I keep thinking is what if this rant was about you? What if it was about me? How many of you would jump all over me based solely on some anonymous post claiming to have dox about all my crimes while I was in Scientology? I'm out in the open under my own name and am totally open to an attack just like this. I would hope that if it comes, all of you would see through it and know that it's just so much BS. Yet it seems the more extravagant the accusations, the more easily they will be believed.

Would I then have to come here and spend my time defending myself from this kind of tripe instead of continuing to do my work to expose OSA and Miscavige for exactly this kind of Fair Gaming?

I am not stating that these accusations against Debbie are true or false. I have no idea as to their veracity. And that is where any sensible conversation about this matter should stop, not start. These are serious claims being made against Debbie, not just "oh yeah, we all did bad things in the Sea Org." I think the brutality and harshness of the accusations were worded that way on purpose to specifically attract attention with their shock value. I think the only real answer to this rant is "Dox or STFU". And in this particular case, I also want to know the actual source, not some second or third-hand repeat of it.

And as always, I'm totally willing to state loud and proud that I was wrong if it can be proven that this is not an OSA op. But until it is, Dox or STFU!
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
This whole thing really bothers me.

Debbie Cook has only just recently come back on Facebook and is making herself known again, and then out of the blue comes this pages-long rant about her, claiming that she is guilty of some very heinous and illegal acts. There is no source for this document, no name, no face. And despite whatever it says in the rant itself, there is not one bit of evidence or dox for any of this. No names of witnesses, no photos or documentation. I've looked and I can't find any dox anywhere on this.

Doesn't the timing of this make it seem kind of suspicious all by itself? Purple Rain, Gib and a few others can see that. I wish everyone else could too. This whole thing reads like an OSA Fair Game op 100% out of the Art of War playbook. It is written in such a way as to distract all attention from COB and put all attention on Debbie. It takes great pains to repeatedly point out what an evil slime Debbie is, and totally downplays any real world influence of Miscavige, CMO and RTC. It's all on Debbie. Anyone who thinks that the Captain of an org, even FSO, gets such a free pass from CMO and RTC Reps is not living in the real world and doesn't know what the life of an org CO is really like. I have years of experience with this and I do know what their lives are like, who runs them and what kind of direction they get 24/7. It's almost impossible to imagine because there's no other real world equivalent to what being an org CO is like. You just wouldn't believe it until you've lived it.

The thing I keep thinking is what if this rant was about you? What if it was about me? How many of you would jump all over me based solely on some anonymous post claiming to have dox about all my crimes while I was in Scientology? I'm out in the open under my own name and am totally open to an attack just like this. I would hope that if it comes, all of you would see through it and know that it's just so much BS. Yet it seems the more extravagant the accusations, the more easily they will be believed.

Would I then have to come here and spend my time defending myself from this kind of tripe instead of continuing to do my work to expose OSA and Miscavige for exactly this kind of Fair Gaming?

I am not stating that these accusations against Debbie are true or false. I have no idea as to their veracity. And that is where any sensible conversation about this matter should stop, not start. These are serious claims being made against Debbie, not just "oh yeah, we all did bad things in the Sea Org." I think the brutality and harshness of the accusations were worded that way on purpose to specifically attract attention with their shock value. I think the only real answer to this rant is "Dox or STFU". And in this particular case, I also want to know the actual source, not some second or third-hand repeat of it.

And as always, I'm totally willing to state loud and proud that I was wrong if it can be proven that this is not an OSA op. But until it is, Dox or STFU!

I think a lot of it is a matter of confirmation bias. People don't care what the source is as long as it appears to confirm their own prejudices. I am guilty of this, too, but I do try and always think, "What if it were me?" It struck me as very star chamber, banana republic, kangaroo court. Some Abigail Williams comes along and hysterically points the finger at someone and nobody cares about evidence. That "testimony" is all the evidence that they need.

The fact is, I have no idea what Debbie Cook did or didn't do. But I do know that she spoke out against Miscavige to every Scientologist she knew. Fact. And I do know that she behaved with great personal integrity in the hole. Corroborated fact. And I do know that people are still citing her email as the catalyst for leaving. Fact.
 

Chris Shelton

Patron with Honors
I think a lot of it is a matter of confirmation bias. People don't care what the source is as long as it appears to confirm their own prejudices. I am guilty of this, too, but I do try and always think, "What if it were me?" It struck me as very star chamber, banana republic, kangaroo court. Some Abigail Williams comes along and hysterically points the finger at someone and nobody cares about evidence. That "testimony" is all the evidence that they need.

The fact is, I have no idea what Debbie Cook did or didn't do. But I do know that she spoke out against Miscavige to every Scientologist she knew. Fact. And I do know that she behaved with great personal integrity in the hole. Corroborated fact. And I do know that people are still citing her email as the catalyst for leaving. Fact.

You nailed it Purple Rain. I wouldn't be here right now if Debbie Cook's email hadn't opened my eyes to some things I could never have found out any other way when I was still in the SO. I owe her a huge debt of gratitude for that email and I have let her know that. We should not be jumping on the "confirmation bias" bandwagon. We should all be a lot more critical in our thinking, especially when it comes to accusations such as these. Yes, they may very well be true. But let's refrain from the mob mentality until we have some dox and evidence.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
You nailed it Purple Rain. I wouldn't be here right now if Debbie Cook's email hadn't opened my eyes to some things I could never have found out any other way when I was still in the SO. I owe her a huge debt of gratitude for that email and I have let her know that. We should not be jumping on the "confirmation bias" bandwagon. We should all be a lot more critical in our thinking, especially when it comes to accusations such as these. Yes, they may very well be true. But let's refrain from the mob mentality until we have some dox and evidence.

GP, I understand where you and Purple Rain are coming from on this. But I can see the other side of this too.

I only had a short run-in with Debbie, which was while I was on training at Flag in 99 and 2000. I did not know her in the earlier years.

The dox are likely unavailable to determine any of these allegations as fact. And so, it is just rumor, really.

----

Having LIVED the kinds of things stated in the first post by Knows (at PAC, not around Debbie), it does not surprise me at all. Child molesting was RAMPANT at PAC in the 70's and 80's. The children would be dragged into ethics for it. I have no idea if anything happened to the adults at all.

Maybe to specifically point out and target Debbie on the matter would be incorrect, but the fact is, back then EVERY SEA ORG MEMBER TOLERATED IT. COB is not the only fault in Scn and the Sea Org.

------

And another point, which may just be my own personal view, is that Debbie has done well with writing the email (which, from my understanding was not actulaly sent to many people by her, but was forwarded by someone else), but it does not make up for the many many years as a Sea Org member and the damage caused.

Hell, I was a Case Supervisor for years and probably have my own pile of crap to deal with and make up damage... The C/Ses, especially after GAT, became mind manipulators. Probably far worse and insidious than the directness of Debbie's actions.

I have already ranted on an entire thread about Debbie and my lack of respect for her, and why, and I think I will leave it at that.
 

Xenu's Boyfriend

Silver Meritorious Patron
This was the first place I read about Debbie's conduct during the incident I mentioned in the Hole. It was a post by Marty Rathbun all the way back from March 2010 - long before Debbie's email and court testimony - on the scientology cult website, titled Debbie Cook - 45 Days in the Hole.

In this post, Marty said:

One day DM announced to the assembled in the Hole that Marc Yager (one time CO CMO INT/WDC Chairman) and Guillaume Lesevre (one time ED INT) were homosexual and were engaged in a gay relationship. To those who have read my full blog and Scientology-cult.com you’d know that by that time, DM had been alleging this to the entire crew for ten years. But, for Debbie, Kristie (exCO FCB) and Heber, it was news.

Debbie was there when DM announced that Tom Cruise would come the next day to “punch you guys out” if the one hundred Holee’s failed to get a confession out of Guillaume and Marc.

When DM left Jenny Linsen Devocht, Angie Blankenship, and Lisa Schroer (who were DM’s pets at the time, sort of in charge of the Hole while being Holed themselves) decided that the Holees collectively will “give some people some black eyes before Tom has to.” Russ Bellin (once CO CST) lead the charge of the bigger and stronger men in the hole who began the beat downs of Yager, Guillaume and Ray Mithoff (once Snr CS INT). The crew battered Marc, Guillaume and Ray. In the psychotic frenzy even Norman Starkey and Heber sustained some collateral damage. Debbie managed not to participate in the carnage.

When DM returned for a report, Lisa Schroer (who remained a DM pet throughout given her position as CO of Gold, that handles the only product he gives a damn about, Events) in her inimitable fashion, started embellishing the forced confessions allegedly gotten from Guillaume and Yager while under legally recognized conditions of torture. Lisa dutifully reported that Guillaume and Yager had in fact confessed to having a homosexual relationship.

Debbie tried to correct the report, interjecting that they never really confessed as Lisa was reporting. DM shut her up in a heartbeat. Once DM left, Lisa Schroer , who was a little more in charge of the Hole at the time than Jenny and Angie, briefed the Holees what a treasonous “bitch” Debbie was for “defending” Marc and Guillaume. She was accused of being “mutual out ruds” for having sided with the victims of torture. That included loud accusations from Lisa, Angie and Jenny that Debbie “must be a lesbo.”

For the next twelve hours Debbie was made to stand in a large garbage can and face one hundred people screaming at her demanding a confession as to her “homosexual tendancies”. While this was going on water was poured over her head. Signs were put around Debbie’s neck, one marked in magic marker “LESBO” while this torture proceeded. Debbie was repeatedly slapped across the face by other women in the room during the interrogation. Debbie never did break. And fittingly she was rewarded with what turned out to be a break in another sense of the word.

When I confirmed all of these facts with multiple sources, I knew without a doubt there was no turning back for me.

- See more at: http://www.scientology-cult.com/debb....NjbNYnFP.dpuf

So I just thought she did show a lot of integrity and courage in that incident - and, yes, she did try and help them.


I have to say, reading this, especially as a gay man, I am almost physically ill.

One day "The Hole" and the experiences there will be studied by sociologists, not unlike the "societies" that are created in many prisons and concentrations camps. The real horror for me is that in the context of the world they lived in at Int base, this probably all made sense to them.

I hope at some point some courageous filmmaker will make a movie of this - showing how people like Jenny Linsen Devocht, Angie Blankenship, and Lisa Schroer can become the kind of monsters that would perpetrate something like this. These women couldn't have started out this way. Through the brainwashing, the stress, the torture, they became capable of these psychotic acts, which has implications for all of us. Maybe one of them was completely psychotic to start with, but I doubt it. Imagine the power of a film where a woman like Jenny Devocht takes her first Scientology course, innocently extending her hand and saying, "Hi, my name is Jenny", and then later in the film we see this woman, foaming at the mouth, throwing garbage on another human being, calling her a lesbian to humiliate her, forcing confessions through violence.

It's truly heartbreaking what happens, whether you are victims or the assailants, because the bottom line is, How did we get here, as human beings? What happened that LRH and COB created a situation where this group of people turn on each other, destroy each other, as opposed to sitting there and saying, "We have to stick together to get out of here. These are not the people we were meant to be." What happened to love?

I am still horrified by the way that Debbie was sent to the Hole in the first place, the sadistic way that DM made sure she was on the phone and said, "Have they arrived" or "Are they there yet" and the men who came to get here climbed through the window. Only someone who relishes hurting people, like boys who torture animals, could come up with something like that, which such sadistic glee. The shock isn't that there are truly psychotic people in the world like COB, the shock is that so many of us give our power to people like that. Is life really so painful and scary and we need answers so badly that we will do anything to be reassured or saved?

For me, stories like this show me how damaged we all and how the human mind and psyche, while at times extraordinary, is also very frail and can be easily manipulated. Here is a group of talented people, stuck in a room, forcing two men to admit to being homosexual. And what if they are, what does that mean and why should they be punished? How can you so easily turn again someone that not long before you considered a colleague and a friend?

As an activist, I take Scientology's abuse of human beings very personally and the rest of the world should too. This isn't about religion, or about an ideology. It is about the continuation of very specific human rights violations. And while I'm sure that Debbie has her crimes, I also wonder about the tone of this original post, and the usual, "So and So is a pedophile so don't listen to them" (The implication being that if Debbie didn't have sex with children herself, she procured them for someone else, which in slander terms is almost the same thing) and which means her testimony again the church is invalid. This feels like it comes straight from the Scientology playbook to me. And I do think, given the context of where she was, it was heroic for her to challenge the so-called confessions of the men and take on the wrath of the group. That couldn't have been easy, which means that she still had a conscience.

The world has a lot to answer for for allowing Scientology to continue. I think anyone who was drawn in is a victim on some level, but in the end, we all have a responsibility, whether we were even in the church or not to say - this is wrong. On every level. It must stop.

How the fuck did we get here?
 
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