The Truth about Marty Rathburn

[Markus]

(I have edited this. After re-reading it I could see it was a bit rough)

Hello to those that read these boards,

This is information to those that support Marty Rathburn.

Please read this, and evaluate the information.

The Sea Org was created in 1967.

David Miscavige came along in the 80's.

There is a gap of some 13 years where DM had little to do with it.

The big lie that you are being asked to swallow is that the SO was "right" prior to DM arriving. And so was the tech.

The truth is that this statement could not be further from the Truth.

What is the Truth?

Did DM write the policies of the Sea Org which allow it to do what it does? No. LRH did.

Did DM write or authorise the extensive use of disconnection, overboarding or ruthless ethics that allows the takeover of Earth via Scientolgoy at any cost?

No, DM did not write these things. LRH did.

I have spoken to those that were on the ship with Ron.

There aren't many left. Most are dead. Or a freezoners.

They will tell you the truth.

LRH, the Messiah, was a madman.

Marty would have you beleive that he will deliver to you the golden age of true Scientology.

This is the same man who, prior to his arrival or DM's, had a madman called LRH stating that we had OTs, we have clears.

And yet none have ever walked the planet.

None ever will. Especially is you are using LRH tech.

It would be nice to blame DM wouldn't it? But this is the wrong target. No matter how insnae DM now is, one should ask what made him so insane.

It would be nice to say "DM changed the tech". And yes, he did. But this was 30 years after the fact that LRH tech failed to deliver any of what it promised.

Perhaps it SHOULD be changed. Because LRH couldn't get it right either.

The shocking truth is that there is no LRH tech that can create an OT. Or a clear.

Marty would have you beleive that this is possible, and promise you that piece of blue sky that got you into Scientology in the first place.

If there are any persons out there with OT abilities, understand that it is because they are different.

If you edcuate yourself into the real world and understand how powerful a human brain is, it starts to make sense why we are here in the first place, in this technologicial age. There are animals on this planet that use sonar, near pre-cognitive reaction times, elephants that can commuicate via vibration at 50km, wales that communicate over thousands, sea creatures with eyesight 9 advanced than human bodies, dogs that can smell a thousand times better...this list goes on. It is astounding how powerful organisims are on this planet.

Where did we get the idea that they were primitive? They are so advanced, it baffles the mind almost. Man is lucky to have arms, hands and advanced vocal abilities. How did we get here? Good question. The questions are being answered using science. The answers are making sense. The good news is that science at it's absolute level will acknowledge the existence of thetans once it is done. It has not set out to disprove religion or the soul, as others would have you beleive.

If humans walked around with all the abilities that all animals alone on this planet have, then you would be an OT.

Don't invalidate how powerful the human brain is. Have you studied it, really studied it, or just read an article or two? Or the organisims of this planet? We are truly unique. But you won't do that. You will call your brain primitive without ever stuyding it, because you were told that would validate you being "a body".

You ARE a body, in case you hadn't bloody noticed. It is a wonderful thing.

And if you treat it like it is garbage, you die. Millions of years of beautiful evolution results in this magnificent creation, and we accept some twit like LRH who says it is "nothing"?

Oh dear.

You will find that evolution of man while being of the brain and the mind, is because you have a brain.

Let's use it.

Here is your first chance.

Find for me a time in Scientology, prior to Marty, the SO or DM was there was ever a true clear? Or OT?

Try to find one for me that was created AFTER the SO was created and prior to DM, or Marty.

There will be none found.

If you are truly able to confront. If you are truly able to evaluate information, then evaluate and find out why all the tech hasn't delivered this.

The answer is not that the tech needs tweaking. Or was misapplied.

It is because it is the wrong tech to create an OT.

Perhaps there is tech that can create an OT. But it does not exist in Scientology. Perhaps Scientology coupled with other tech can do this.

A simple, humble way of life exists in the basics of Scientology.

Good. Use that. Basic Tech, basic stuff. Why the fuck do you beleive that just because he made you feel better with basic auditing or basic tech, that this means he has the solution to everything?

Why don't you just go to a doctor and ask them to cure everything? They will tell you they can't and will tell you they can help to an extent. They don't lie and say they can do it all. They get locked up for making false promises.

As they should. As LRH should have been, too.

Basic auditing is great. You feel wonderful. I liked it. But to validate imaginations as the real thing sets up a deadly proposition for the mind to accept. Is there any harm in auditing out "imaginations"? If you knew they were just imaginations, is there any harm? Your still resolving the ficitous incident and looking at how you did so. Is there an harm in this?

If you understand how a brain wires together memories and triggers, there possibly is some danger in this. Taking away the triggers that fail to let you feel fear when there is a lethal spider in front of you IS DANGEROUS. Taking away the triggers that make you capable of holding conversations with men, instead of running away from them because you were raped as a child IS ADVANTAGOUS. Having the Triggers removed which make you capable of being duped IS DANGEROUS.

We have all seen the shows that show you a person scared of a spider, cured, then able to pick it up. Thats great - but those are just plain spiders with a less than fatal bite. No matter how cool you are around spiders, picking up a funnel web spider in Australia is suicide. You will be bitten and you will die. No spider expert is the world would ever touch one. Ever.

So we have to be careful about what triggers and fears we strip away. Fears are OK. They are there for a reason.

If we try to understand that LRH was TRYING to create a clear, TRYING to create an OT. He couldn't do it. And he failed. He himself couldn't even be one. And he felt guilty. So he lied and told you he created it.

Sure, money had something to do with it. I have no doubt LRH had by 1975 enough money... so the game was control and to be a messiah, a much more attractive proposition. After all, if money just gets you luxuries and power, then being a messiah gets you even more.

He wanted the top job. Not just to be a God. But the creator of Gods. Wow. Those are pretty big shoes to fill.

Faiths, beliefs, the Egyptians and other modern Science agrees that the creation of an OT may be possible.

But it is not in Scientology.

All this time you have been told that Scientology can create it. It is no better than a doctor who promises he can heal spinal injuries and yet to date has never done one successful operation.

And your just going to lie down and get cut open? You must be insane. Surely you would take more care than that? Surely you would ask for proof before handing over your mind to a person? But we didn't.

Why did we BELIEVE that LRH tech could create this? Why did we BELIEIVE that Marty, who is part of this great lie, can give us what we want?

Because you were told. And again, you will not THINK.

And Marty stands before you today, offering more hope. And that is all he will give you, hope.

If you want to live with hope, and no results, go stay with Marty. Or advanced Scientology. Plenty of "hope" for sale.

Blame DM, blame this or that. But for Gods sake, lets be grown up and blame ourselves for falling into a trap and buying it hook, line and sinker.

Marty is in that Trap. And he, who couldn't stand the thought of being lied to his whole life, must justify his existence and beliefs. And he will accomplish this by getting you to agree that we were all duped, and that the "truth" is still there for us.

LRH, the man who lost a son to suicide. A man who lost his wife to jail. A man who lost his other son through disconnection. A man who lay on his death bed with only a few friends left, the rest all declared by DM, and if not by DM, LRH took care of declaring them all before DM was even in the Sea Org.

Perhaps UFOs do exist. Perhaps there are Alien races out there. It is possible. But none of them, if they land here, are going to tell you that they were mates with Xenu. Or that they were implanted 75 million years ago with you. Science agrees that the likelihood of aliens is probable. To what extent their intelligence? unknown.

Other lines of data would indicate that we have had extensive alien invlovement. Some proof exists.

The confirmation of any of the above does not validate Scientology. Rosewell was pre scientology. The first instance of UFO reporting was in 1917. So, while keeping an open mind, let us just evaluate the arguements placed before us.

When you can accept that you were lied to by the man you most trusted, LRH, you might start to get somewhere. It hurts.

I know. It really does. I would have died for him. And he lied to me. That SOB. I dislike him very much for doing this. But he is dead, and left a legacy behind that contans some good, but mostly a lot of unresearched, and dangerous techniques for altering the mind - and thus the brain.

Marty will offer you a way out. Beleive in LRH, and despise the Church in it's current form and it's leaders. This will validate your poor decision in Scientology and also validate that your hopes can still come true.

Good luck to you.

If you go over to Marty's camp, see DM fall and reinstate a new method of Scientology, I will hear from you in the future.

Give it 20 years. And we will again have tails of you being duped.

Right now, if you will not evaluate because you have a belief in your mind that will not allow you to evaluate. It has been shown and proved that belief systems of the highest order through MIR scans will actually automatically reject data contrary to the belief system you have in place. Thus it results in no evaluation.

We all had our chance. We were told of clears. We were told of OTs. We saw no proof. We did not ask for proof. Why?

All the evidence in the WORLD will still not result in you being able to accept what I write, or make a responsible decision in the light of total evidence.

You feel like lashing out. Hitting that "reply" button and scream at me "I have the right to believe...". But don't hit that button. Because this isn't about what you beleive. This is about facts. You can sing all you want, the fact is what did LRH do between 1950 and 1982? Don't know, go find out. How old was DM when he joined and what was it like before DM arrived - oh yes, boats full of happy happy clears and OTs dancing in the winds of Orion.

And the reason is because your not interested in facts. Your interested in BELIEVE and BELIEF.

But if that's what you want you have no arguement from me.

Or sympathy.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Now, stop reading, go fly off with Marty into horizons that only exist in your head, enjoy your head in the sand and don't fight real battles that need to be won for our true freedoms.

Who cares about an egotisitcal vice to go OT when we live in a world that is destroying itself?

LRH said if you go OT, this would solve the world problems. But it won't. Complex manufacturing processes, energy provision to the planet is solved through research, brains and excellent execution. Not through the attempt to create an OT that can wish it out of thin air.

I feel almost ashamed that while aorund the world people are suffering, my personal goal was to go off an be OT... ouch. How human was I?

My heart was in the right place. And that's what I dislike about Marty, DM, and LRH. They take the most authentic people like you and I that want to do nothing but help, and then mold it.

There is no doubt in my mind that the people reading this have the best hearts in the world and only want to see peace and prosperity for all man and every spicies.

You are worth your weight in gold, and then some.

You will spend $100 on a book and not a can of beans to a homeless guy. Ugh, do I want to know you? I think so, but let's help others out first. Thats probably more OT than most. Human Aid workers are OTs. That Australian Doctor that cured eyesight for thousands, thats OT. These guys make a real difference.

Have you ever given a toss about the guy in the Congo getting his head blown off? The civilian in Afghastan getting bombed? The famines in Africa? The overpopulation of Earth? Your civil rights being taken away? The mess the 20th century has created for this planet in 50-100 years??? There are REAL people out there with REAL sanity getting solutions to these REAL problems. Do these things concern you?

I think that they probably do.

Scientists aren't "ignorant fools" who need to go OT like we were told. These are smart people that need help from people like you and I to make real world changes.

Because one thing is certain, most of you guys care. When your told the truth.

No LRH tech will solve this. LOOK. Of course, you would have to be willing to look at what's really going on inside the world, as opposed to inside your precious, all important head. Mine included.

Are we selfish human beings? Do we want OT... have we reached "human" yet?

We don't deserve to be duped.

I hope I offended people with this. I am not in the business of validating flatout bullshit or lack of ability to evaluate. We can see straight, when we take off the stupid glasses.

Marty is prescribing a new pair. The lenses are the same. The frame is different.

And I want to add here - true believing Scientologists are true cowards who are not able to accept life as it really is : full of marvellous miracles but sometimes full of pain and darkness.
And to learn to fight this pain and darkness with love and understanding is a possible way to a better world - but this is not what Hubbard teached his followers. Hubbards "Tech" is a way into even deeper pain and darkness without any love and no real understanding at all.
A way into a fictitious world and you hurt yourself and your friends and family by disconnecting from the real world.

This is what I observed in and with Scientology - destroying my family so completely with Hubbards "Technology".

Love
Markus

 

[Gottabrain]

Great post, Aaron.

And necessary.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that DM isn't the reason why Scilo doesn't work, or the entire reason behind the abuses. It's built into the Scilo system because it was meant to be built into it.

But you give Elron way too much credit. Trying to make an OT? Not when he started Scilo. He already knew the tech didn't work and stated quite openly that the way to get rich was to make a religion, and he did. I'll let others fill in here. I have another point to make.

This period of time in the C of S is similar to when David Mayo left, but with a few very large differences.

The downfall of any corporation, civilization or group follows a certain pattern. This pattern is inevitable. The writing of the Scilo Crimes & High Crimes were an attempt to force this pattern never to happen by the use of duress. All that did was hold back the flood for a while until the dam burst.

Splinter groups, such as the Protestant group breaking off from the Catholic church, are inevitable and part of an organization's fall/restructuring. It is part of history, it is part of life.

When David Mayo left it was a huge wave of backlash from the Scilo and ex Scilo public. That, and all the accompanying pressures, lawsuits, etc that followed nearly wiped out the C of S financially for a period. But comparing that time to now is like comparing a tidal wave to a Tsunami.

One difference is, there are less than a third of the active Scilos now that there were then. And those 2/3, plus all those that left since, are here in the field, with us, lurking and watching, or over to the new squirrel groups and freezone.

The current Scilos are greatly outnumbered. But the differences don't end there. Each country has built up its own arsenal of cases against the C of S, other Christian and human rights groups are shocked, upset and assisting us, and we have the Internet, which makes it impossible for what we say to be ignored.

Personally, I am not very concerned about rising and growing squirrel groups. They will come and they will go. It is hard for someone brainwashed so long in a system to accept the entire truth all at once. Some need to do it a step at a time.

If we stay focused on our human rights issues, those squirrel groups will be doing their part to slowly drain and break down the C of S and those people will eventually be free and learn the entire truth through us.

I think for us to be overly concerned about Rathbun at this point would be a distraction and possibly even a mistake at this point, but not later down the line.

To keep the truth always out there in the public eye is necessary. It is our job. And your post is very much appreciated.

 

[Sharone Stainforth]

Aaron,

What a wonderful post!

Originally Posted by aaron saxton
(I have edited this. After re-reading it I could see it was a bit rough)

Hello to those that read these boards,

This is information to those that support Marty Rathburn.

Please read this, and evaluate the information.

The Sea Org was created in 1967.

David Miscavige came along in the 80's.

There is a gap of some 13 years where DM had little to do with it.

The big lie that you are being asked to swallow is that the SO was "right" prior to DM arriving. And so was the tech.

The truth is that this statement could not be further from the Truth.

What is the Truth?

Did DM write the policies of the Sea Org which allow it to do what it does? No. LRH did.

Did DM write or authorise the extensive use of disconnection, overboarding or ruthless ethics that allows the takeover of Earth via Scientolgoy at any cost?

No, DM did not write these things. LRH did.

I have spoken to those that were on the ship with Ron.

There aren't many left. Most are dead. Or a freezoners.

They will tell you the truth.

LRH, the Messiah, was a madman.

Marty would have you beleive that he will deliver to you the golden age of true Scientology.

This is the same man who, prior to his arrival or DM's, had a madman called LRH stating that we had OTs, we have clears.

And yet none have ever walked the planet.

None ever will. Especially is you are using LRH tech.

It would be nice to blame DM wouldn't it? But this is the wrong target. No matter how insnae DM now is, one should ask what made him so insane.

It would be nice to say "DM changed the tech". And yes, he did. But this was 30 years after the fact that LRH tech failed to deliver any of what it promised.

Perhaps it SHOULD be changed. Because LRH couldn't get it right either.

The shocking truth is that there is no LRH tech that can create an OT. Or a clear.

Marty would have you beleive that this is possible, and promise you that piece of blue sky that got you into Scientology in the first place.

If there are any persons out there with OT abilities, understand that it is because they are different.

If you edcuate yourself into the real world and understand how powerful a human brain is, it starts to make sense why we are here in the first place, in this technologicial age. There are animals on this planet that use sonar, near pre-cognitive reaction times, elephants that can commuicate via vibration at 50km, wales that communicate over thousands, sea creatures with eyesight 9 advanced than human bodies, dogs that can smell a thousand times better...this list goes on. It is astounding how powerful organisims are on this planet.

Where did we get the idea that they were primitive? They are so advanced, it baffles the mind almost. Man is lucky to have arms, hands and advanced vocal abilities. How did we get here? Good question. The questions are being answered using science. The answers are making sense. The good news is that science at it's absolute level will acknowledge the existence of thetans once it is done. It has not set out to disprove religion or the soul, as others would have you beleive.

If humans walked around with all the abilities that all animals alone on this planet have, then you would be an OT.

Don't invalidate how powerful the human brain is. Have you studied it, really studied it, or just read an article or two? Or the organisims of this planet? We are truly unique. But you won't do that. You will call your brain primitive without ever stuyding it, because you were told that would validate you being "a body".

You ARE a body, in case you hadn't bloody noticed. It is a wonderful thing.

And if you treat it like it is garbage, you die. Millions of years of beautiful evolution results in this magnificent creation, and we accept some twit like LRH who says it is "nothing"?

Oh dear.

You will find that evolution of man while being of the brain and the mind, is because you have a brain.

Let's use it.

Here is your first chance.

Find for me a time in Scientology, prior to Marty, the SO or DM was there was ever a true clear? Or OT?

Try to find one for me that was created AFTER the SO was created and prior to DM, or Marty.

There will be none found.

If you are truly able to confront. If you are truly able to evaluate information, then evaluate and find out why all the tech hasn't delivered this.

The answer is not that the tech needs tweaking. Or was misapplied.

It is because it is the wrong tech to create an OT.

Perhaps there is tech that can create an OT. But it does not exist in Scientology. Perhaps Scientology coupled with other tech can do this.

A simple, humble way of life exists in the basics of Scientology.

Good. Use that. Basic Tech, basic stuff. Why the fuck do you beleive that just because he made you feel better with basic auditing or basic tech, that this means he has the solution to everything?

Why don't you just go to a doctor and ask them to cure everything? They will tell you they can't and will tell you they can help to an extent. They don't lie and say they can do it all. They get locked up for making false promises.

As they should. As LRH should have been, too.

Basic auditing is great. You feel wonderful. I liked it. But to validate imaginations as the real thing sets up a deadly proposition for the mind to accept. Is there any harm in auditing out "imaginations"? If you knew they were just imaginations, is there any harm? Your still resolving the ficitous incident and looking at how you did so. Is there an harm in this?

If you understand how a brain wires together memories and triggers, there possibly is some danger in this. Taking away the triggers that fail to let you feel fear when there is a lethal spider in front of you IS DANGEROUS. Taking away the triggers that make you capable of holding conversations with men, instead of running away from them because you were raped as a child IS ADVANTAGOUS. Having the Triggers removed which make you capable of being duped IS DANGEROUS.

We have all seen the shows that show you a person scared of a spider, cured, then able to pick it up. Thats great - but those are just plain spiders with a less than fatal bite. No matter how cool you are around spiders, picking up a funnel web spider in Australia is suicide. You will be bitten and you will die. No spider expert is the world would ever touch one. Ever.

So we have to be careful about what triggers and fears we strip away. Fears are OK. They are there for a reason.

If we try to understand that LRH was TRYING to create a clear, TRYING to create an OT. He couldn't do it. And he failed. He himself couldn't even be one. And he felt guilty. So he lied and told you he created it.

Sure, money had something to do with it. I have no doubt LRH had by 1975 enough money... so the game was control and to be a messiah, a much more attractive proposition. After all, if money just gets you luxuries and power, then being a messiah gets you even more.

He wanted the top job. Not just to be a God. But the creator of Gods. Wow. Those are pretty big shoes to fill.

Faiths, beliefs, the Egyptians and other modern Science agrees that the creation of an OT may be possible.

But it is not in Scientology.

All this time you have been told that Scientology can create it. It is no better than a doctor who promises he can heal spinal injuries and yet to date has never done one successful operation.

And your just going to lie down and get cut open? You must be insane. Surely you would take more care than that? Surely you would ask for proof before handing over your mind to a person? But we didn't.

Why did we BELIEVE that LRH tech could create this? Why did we BELIEIVE that Marty, who is part of this great lie, can give us what we want?

Because you were told. And again, you will not THINK.

And Marty stands before you today, offering more hope. And that is all he will give you, hope.

If you want to live with hope, and no results, go stay with Marty. Or advanced Scientology. Plenty of "hope" for sale.

Blame DM, blame this or that. But for Gods sake, lets be grown up and blame ourselves for falling into a trap and buying it hook, line and sinker.

Marty is in that Trap. And he, who couldn't stand the thought of being lied to his whole life, must justify his existence and beliefs. And he will accomplish this by getting you to agree that we were all duped, and that the "truth" is still there for us.

LRH, the man who lost a son to suicide. A man who lost his wife to jail. A man who lost his other son through disconnection. A man who lay on his death bed with only a few friends left, the rest all declared by DM, and if not by DM, LRH took care of declaring them all before DM was even in the Sea Org.

Perhaps UFOs do exist. Perhaps there are Alien races out there. It is possible. But none of them, if they land here, are going to tell you that they were mates with Xenu. Or that they were implanted 75 million years ago with you. Science agrees that the likelihood of aliens is probable. To what extent their intelligence? unknown.

Other lines of data would indicate that we have had extensive alien invlovement. Some proof exists.

The confirmation of any of the above does not validate Scientology. Rosewell was pre scientology. The first instance of UFO reporting was in 1917. So, while keeping an open mind, let us just evaluate the arguements placed before us.

When you can accept that you were lied to by the man you most trusted, LRH, you might start to get somewhere. It hurts.

I know. It really does. I would have died for him. And he lied to me. That SOB. I dislike him very much for doing this. But he is dead, and left a legacy behind that contans some good, but mostly a lot of unresearched, and dangerous techniques for altering the mind - and thus the brain.

Marty will offer you a way out. Beleive in LRH, and despise the Church in it's current form and it's leaders. This will validate your poor decision in Scientology and also validate that your hopes can still come true.

Good luck to you.

If you go over to Marty's camp, see DM fall and reinstate a new method of Scientology, I will hear from you in the future.

Give it 20 years. And we will again have tails of you being duped.

Right now, if you will not evaluate because you have a belief in your mind that will not allow you to evaluate. It has been shown and proved that belief systems of the highest order through MIR scans will actually automatically reject data contrary to the belief system you have in place. Thus it results in no evaluation.

We all had our chance. We were told of clears. We were told of OTs. We saw no proof. We did not ask for proof. Why?

All the evidence in the WORLD will still not result in you being able to accept what I write, or make a responsible decision in the light of total evidence.

You feel like lashing out. Hitting that "reply" button and scream at me "I have the right to believe...". But don't hit that button. Because this isn't about what you beleive. This is about facts. You can sing all you want, the fact is what did LRH do between 1950 and 1982? Don't know, go find out. How old was DM when he joined and what was it like before DM arrived - oh yes, boats full of happy happy clears and OTs dancing in the winds of Orion.

And the reason is because your not interested in facts. Your interested in BELIEVE and BELIEF.

But if that's what you want you have no arguement from me.

Or sympathy.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Now, stop reading, go fly off with Marty into horizons that only exist in your head, enjoy your head in the sand and don't fight real battles that need to be won for our true freedoms.

Who cares about an egotisitcal vice to go OT when we live in a world that is destroying itself?

LRH said if you go OT, this would solve the world problems. But it won't. Complex manufacturing processes, energy provision to the planet is solved through research, brains and excellent execution. Not through the attempt to create an OT that can wish it out of thin air.

I feel almost ashamed that while aorund the world people are suffering, my personal goal was to go off an be OT... ouch. How human was I?

My heart was in the right place. And that's what I dislike about Marty, DM, and LRH. They take the most authentic people like you and I that want to do nothing but help, and then mold it.

There is no doubt in my mind that the people reading this have the best hearts in the world and only want to see peace and prosperity for all man and every spicies.

You are worth your weight in gold, and then some.

You will spend $100 on a book and not a can of beans to a homeless guy. Ugh, do I want to know you? I think so, but let's help others out first. Thats probably more OT than most. Human Aid workers are OTs. That Australian Doctor that cured eyesight for thousands, thats OT. These guys make a real difference.

Have you ever given a toss about the guy in the Congo getting his head blown off? The civilian in Afghastan getting bombed? The famines in Africa? The overpopulation of Earth? Your civil rights being taken away? The mess the 20th century has created for this planet in 50-100 years??? There are REAL people out there with REAL sanity getting solutions to these REAL problems. Do these things concern you?

I think that they probably do.

Scientists aren't "ignorant fools" who need to go OT like we were told. These are smart people that need help from people like you and I to make real world changes.

Because one thing is certain, most of you guys care. When your told the truth.

No LRH tech will solve this. LOOK. Of course, you would have to be willing to look at what's really going on inside the world, as opposed to inside your precious, all important head. Mine included.

Are we selfish human beings? Do we want OT... have we reached "human" yet?

We don't deserve to be duped.

I hope I offended people with this. I am not in the business of validating flatout bullshit or lack of ability to evaluate. We can see straight, when we take off the stupid glasses.

Marty is prescribing a new pair. The lenses are the same. The frame is different.

 

[Gloria Manchenburg]

How can Mark justify the continuation of Scientology without a Sea Organization anyway? Hubbard states numerous times, the purpose of the Sea Organization (beyond Xenu) is to control the ethics of all Class V Orgs and to put in ethics wherever and whenever necessary, be it five in the morning or ten at night. Hubbard makes a great deal over the Sea Organization and it's important role in Scientology - how can Scientology exist "independently" without it?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Scn can. CofS probably can't.

 

[Gloria Manchenburg]

Scn can. CofS probably can't.

per-KSW and "The Work was Free" and "Source" all policies and bulletins issued with the name "L. Ron Hubbard" as the signatory must be followed to the letter, this includes retaining a Sea Organization to maintain ethics, control and executive level international positions. Class V staff come and go, the Sea Organization is forever (and it comes back apparently). The whole notion that Scn and COS are different is a cop-out for not having to follow Source references much in the way blaming DM for brutality is a cop-out.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

per-KSW and "The Work was Free" and "Source" all policies and bulletins issued with the name "L. Ron Hubbard" as the signatory must be followed to the letter, this includes retaining a Sea Organization to maintain ethics, control and executive level international positions. Class V staff come and go, the Sea Organization is forever (and it comes back apparently). The whole notion that Scn and COS are different is a cop-out for not having to follow Source references much in the way blaming DM for brutality is a cop-out.

My many friends in the Free Zone and Independent Scientology venues would disagree with you. Greatly. And, of course, they'd be correct.

 

[Gloria Manchenburg]

My many friends in the Free Zone and Independent Scientology venues would disagree with you. Greatly. And, of course, they'd be correct.

So it's ok to toss out bulletins and policies whenever they don't suit the interest of the person involved? How does that make one a Scientologist then? Being a Scientologist means you follow Source 100% not whenever you want to.

 

[Gottabrain]

Aaron, I can understand your concern with Rathbun, particularly since his most recent recruit has not told all about a death that concerns us.

I just don't see that splinter groups are our concern at all. We should leave them completely alone. It will all work out, just like when David Mayo broke off. Any attempt to deliver some brand of Scilo without the abuses is an effort in the right direction. I don't see this is our target and you may just end up offending some of our friends united in the cause of stopping the abuses and hurting our efforts by getting side-tracked on this.

Personally, I don't believe in the OT levels AT ALL. But some may never change their minds on this and at the lower levels and study levels, some of it was quite good and I don't see those processes as harmful. Due to the abuses and the mind-numbing brainwashing of Scilo, that is very difficult for me to even state here, but I will not deny what is true. I won't have a bar of any part of Scilo because of what I experienced and witnesssed. But that doesn't change the truth. Is it possible for it to be done without brainwashing? I don't know and frankly, I'm not interested in knowing because it has nothing to do with my goals. But some are trying.

Without the abuses, free will is much stronger. Without the abuses and forced disconnection, coercion and nazi attitude, it is a very different scenario.

The danger of you speaking out as you do is the incredible responsibility one has if one is being held up as some sort of spokesperson for exscn.net. Perhaps some clarification of our goals is in order, but please do not in any way offend our friends who stand with us on human rights but may not agree that all the tech was bad for them.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

So it's ok to toss out bulletins and policies whenever they don't suit the interest of the person involved? How does that make one a Scientologist then? Being a Scientologist means you follow Source 100% not whenever you want to.

Check tech dictionary. A Scn'ist is s/one who uses Scn in his or her life.

Historical precedent: The Protestant Reformation. Oodles of "toss(ing) out".

 

[Markus]

Oh Voltaire's Child.....

Check tech dictionary. A Scn'ist is s/one who uses Scn in his or her life.

Historical precedent: The Protestant Reformation. Oodles of "toss(ing) out".

....so you claim here that the Tech Dictionary contains the only truth?

And per this definition the claims of 10 million Scientologists are a big understatement - because Hubbard adopted so many ideas from other believe systems that almost everybody on this planet uses Scientology once in his lifetime.........

So I really hope you are kidding here

Best wishes
Markus

 

[Panda Termint]

And back to the subject at hand; does anyone here really believe that we've heard/read The Truth about Marty Rathbun yet? I don't.

 

[Gloria Manchenburg]

Check tech dictionary. A Scn'ist is s/one who uses Scn in his or her life.

Historical precedent: The Protestant Reformation. Oodles of "toss(ing) out".

But how do you rationalize that Hubbard says throwing anything out or modifying it makes you a squirrel and that you're ruining his fine technology? I mean, I didn't say it - he did. He says it hundreds of times, probably thousands. Altering his tech ruins it as to destroy the purpose of the subject.

And back to the subject at hand; does anyone here really believe that we've heard/read The Truth about Marty Rathbun yet? I don't.

I think Marty is playing his motives very close to his vest.

 

[Gottabrain]

Gloria, maybe some of the "squirrels" are actually out to destroy it. To destroy every bit of it that stinks of abuse, mind control and coercion. Maybe it will eventually have a brand new name. Marty? Well, I think his intentions are far, far less pure, but still, a 45-80 degree shift is a huge improvement, though not the 180 degree shift we'd like. Don't worry about Marty. Scilo is probably aiming most of their guns at him right now, since he's grabbing that group of public who still believe completely in Scilo from them but don't believe in the abuses. He's taking money away from them. That makes him a priority to OSA.

I don't think we'd ever get them here at that "barely out" frame of mind.

I don't see how one could get rid of the mind control aspect without getting rid of the OT levels. I hope, eventually, those will be gone.

Let's stay on the big issues and we'll see in time how this all plays out.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

But how do you rationalize that Hubbard says throwing anything out or modifying it makes you a squirrel and that you're ruining his fine technology?

Well, ever since Nov 6th (see my sigline) it's been a non issue for me personally but I'm still very supportive and heartfelt about this support of/for my friends in the FZ and independent (and "indie"- a term I coined) Scn scene. So it's not me who has to rationalize at least not re myself- but, having said that-- the thing is, it's just another Protestant Reformation. There used to be a big ole church- still around, actually, that claimed there was only one way to be a Christian. They were wrong but for years they burned heretics, they exiled them, they imprisoned them, you name it. And the heretics prevailed and started churches. Now there's zillions of Xtian denominations.

Yes, LRH said it was squirrelling. All through the ages, church fathers of various religions have told people to do it one way, then someone would come along and interpret it differently. yadda yadda.

It's not whether someone else approves or not- it's whether it happened or not. It did happen, it is happening, and doesn't matter what the ol man says.

He also overboarded people and yet I know oodles of people who don't want to do that, either.

I mean, I didn't say it - he did. He says it hundreds of times, probably thousands. Altering his tech ruins it as to destroy the purpose of the subject.

Some Free Zoners are tech purists and some aren't. Some don't alter jack shit. They just don't keep all the policies. Hubbard didn't abide by all his policies either and DM sure doesn't.

Some Free Zoners do alter tech.

So it's just a mix and it's not whether someone's allowed to do it- they either took the bull by the horns and did it or they didn't. And they did and still are.

A few people on this board who might be fun to discuss this with are:

Mark Baker
Carmelo Orchards
Terril Park
DianaClass8

There are many other terrific ones- not leaving anyone out on purpose. Just mentioning some people who are not only active in the FZ but who are extremely open, loving and giving toward those who've gone a different way and who value other philosophies besides Scn. IOW, they're FZ but not hidebound and they know lots of people and lots of history about the thing. Definitely think outside the box type people.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

....so you claim here that the Tech Dictionary contains the only truth?

Jesus Fucking Christ, I said no fucking such thing. I'm talking to someone who's quoting Scn at ME so I gave a SCN REFERENCE. Please see my sigline and do try to keep up.

So I really hope you are kidding here

And I hope you learn to read soon.

 

[Gottabrain]

Voltaire, easy on Markus, please. He is not a Scn or exScn. He's here because someone very close to him died in Scilo. He just misunderstood you. He is 100% with us on human rights, but he has his own particular pain with Scilo.

I think what he meant was that Scilo comes from so many sources that whether you're a Scilo or not, you use parts of it in everyday life. That's all.

 

[degraded being]

Scientology ain't no christianity parallel evolution thang. No way.
And ain't no fuckin buddhist thang. No parrallel thang.
Ain't no parallel sharman tradition thang.
Ain't no animism, ain't no people been believn'n in the spirit of man for thousands of years parallel thang.
Ain't no arkashic frick'n records nor elvis prezzzly ones neither.

If y' wonna legitamise the big bastard that is scientology, and want to refer to something and parallel it with something, you don't have to go further than the mind of it's paranoid schizophrenic maker. Parley parallel it with that and refer not to how the christian church (Fluffy) split, nor how any other "religious tradition" split and developed, but how Man's Best Friend's mind split. and how his paranoia developed.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Scientology ain't no christianity parallel evolution thang. No way.
And ain't no fuckin buddhist thang. No parrallel thang.
Ain't no parallel sharman tradition thang.
Ain't no animism, ain't no people been believn'n in the spirit of man for thousands of years parallel thang.
Ain't no arkashic frick'n records nor elvis prezzzly ones neither.

If y' wonna legitamise the big bastard that is scientology, and want to refer to something and parallel it with something, you don't have to go further than the mind of it's paranoid schizophrenic maker. Parley parallel it with that and refer not to how the christian church (Fluffy) split, nor how any other "religious tradition" split and developed, but how Man's Best Friend's mind split. and how his paranoia developed.

I did not say that Scn was a Christianity evolution thing. I said that people are doing the same (FZ, Independent scene) as Christian heretics have. And before them, people were creating offshoots of other elder religions. They all do it.

Feel free to explain to our Free Zone friends and board habituees that they do not exist and aren't doing what they're doing.

 

[Panda Termint]

Voltaire, easy on Markus, please. He is not a Scn or exScn. He's here because someone very close to him died in Scilo. He just misunderstood you. He is 100% with us on human rights, but he has his own particular pain with Scilo.

I think what he meant was that Scilo comes from so many sources that whether you're a Scilo or not, you use parts of it in everyday life. That's all.

I think you'll find that Markus has quite a bit of personal experience with scientology. Read his story.