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The Worst Thing You Can Do To Yourself As an Ex-Scientologist

Veda

Sponsor
No, I'm not saying that, you are.

You have been doing this for over a decade and you are no further than you were then, because you are still talking about it.

If you had a solution, you would have implemented it a long time ago.
Over a decade? I don't think so.

Alanzo has been parroting Freedom magazine PR and Propaganda lines - Bernie style Is Alanzo the new Bernie? | Ex Scientologist Message Board - since some time after Marty Rathhun caved to Miscavige and became his puppet.

Mirror of the old Bernie site: bernie.cncfamily.com: Scientology and the Anti-Cult Movement

Marty received a lot of money, and Alanzo? My guess is he's been promised free bologna sandwiches for life.

557a72bfcfc12ecac51ec3d081a3ff54.jpg


Not that sweet of a deal but better than nothing.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Over a decade? I don't think so.

Alanzo has been parroting Freedom magazine PR and Propaganda lines - Bernie style Is Alanzo the new Bernie? | Ex Scientologist Message Board - since some time after Marty Rathhun caved to Miscavige and became his puppet.

Mirror of the old Bernie site: bernie.cncfamily.com: Scientology and the Anti-Cult Movement

Marty received a lot of money, and Alanzo? My guess is he's been promised free bologna sandwiches for life.

557a72bfcfc12ecac51ec3d081a3ff54.jpg


Not that sweet of a deal but better than nothing.
I'm talking about his crusading, not what particular crusade he is on but it sounds just like the last time he was here even if he has flipped valences.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Bill wrote:

LOL! I've been out a long time... but I really don't go around telling people how to live their lives.
How long?

You're still here telling me how I should live my life.

Why are you any different than me?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
First off $cientology is a cult. It preys on unsuspecting people manipulatively sucking them in just as Elcon intended. Secondly the psychology you've fabricated aimed at Ex's is false, misleading and full of nonsense. Thirdly your wacky guru based fallacies and thought policing you incessantly browbeat people with here is silly. lol.
It's full of something else as well. :cool:
 

Veda

Sponsor
I'm talking about his crusading, not what particular crusade he is on but it sounds just like the last time he was here even if he has flipped valences.
Well, I didn't mind the crusading.

At least, years ago, he was expressing his own, original, opinions and asking his own, original, questions.

To me, that's good. But that was then.

Now, he's working out of someone else's playbook.

It's just weird.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Bill wrote:


How long?

You're still here telling me how I should live my life.

Why are you any different than me?
No, Alanzo, I'm not telling you how to live your life. You confuse me. Where are you getting your information. Where have I "told you how to live your life"? I have, occasionally, criticized what you have written.

Um... do you actually equate comments about your writing with instructions on how to live your life??! That would be an interesting peculiarity.

Trust me, I have not, do not and will not give you any advice on how you should live your life.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
No, Alanzo, I'm not telling you how to live your life. You confuse me. Where are you getting your information. Where have I "told you how to live your life"? I have, occasionally, criticized what you have written.

Um... do you actually equate comments about your writing with instructions on how to live your life??! That would be an interesting peculiarity.

Trust me, I have not, do not and will not give you any advice on how you should live your life.
But you have plenty of criticisms of me, right?

With those, aren't you telling me how to live my life?
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
But you have plenty of criticisms of me, right?

With those, aren't you telling me how to live my life?
I really do not understand your thinking. I have absolutely no criticisms of you. Never had. I do have some criticisms on some of what you write. Are you unable to see the difference?

Usually, what you write is telling people what they are thinking, why that's wrong and what they should think. That's what I criticize. None of that is about how YOU live.

Is any of this getting through?
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
People need simplistic explanations for Scientology because it’s too much work to understand it.

They just want Scientology to be a cult & Hubbard to be a con man because it’s easier to think with that way.

Even an Ex-Scientologist can go through a period where this is what they want.

In the long run, that’s never going to work. So even though this need for simplistic understandings is understandable, in the end, it will never do what you need it to do.

But even this is not the worst thing you can do to yourself as an Ex-Scientologist.

Audio file:


Transcript:
So this is about how inadequate the Anti Scientology ideology is to understand the things that we see in Scientology watching.

Just as the Scientology ideology was was inadequate to handle, you know, large sections of life, the anti Scientology ideology is to! There's, there's a lot of parts to this. And I could go on and on about.

There's, you know, first of all "cults". It's not a minority religion. It's a cult. It's not a fierce tribe, fierce and harsh tribe. It's a very specific thing. It's a "cult".

Brainwashing, and mind control and brainwashing are of course, choice denying, choice annihilating mechanisms.

So therefore, the people who are Scientologists are Scientologists because they're brainwashed to be that way.

Well, you know, actually, that's not true. They, they made a choice. And every morning they get up and they make that same choice every day. To remain a Scientologist. The degree that you want to deny that person, his own power of choice is the degree to which you would like to dehumanize him. Because it is the power of choice that makes people human. It's what we say, gives them agency. It's the basis of all law and rights and civil rights.

If a person was in a car accident and has brain damage, then they're not capable of making their own choices anymore. So we recognize that state and we signed them a minder, right? Like Tony Ortega is always say that Shelley Miscavige was seen with a minder, right?

So, again, this is making the point that Scientologists don't have a power of choice.

So I I'm not saying that, that that's just part of this part of the anti Scientology ideology. Okay.

And that's inadequate to understanding Scientologists. It's not adequate.

You will not be able to see what you're looking at if you use that viewpoint. If you use the brainwashing, Mind Control viewpoint, that you believe that their ability to make a choice for themselves has been annihilated and that they're not. It's not that you believe they're mistaken, you believe there an actual robot, less than human, who is unable to be responsible for his own choices. That's what you think.

And that, again, is not adequate to understand Scientologists.

A great example, the best example, is Elisabeth Moss. Loyal Scientologist. Brilliant actress. Brilliant artist. Yet a loyal Scientologist. So does Elisabeth Moss not have the power of choice? She really, you know, she doesn't get up every morning and decide to be a Scientologist?

Is she brainwashed?

See that that's just, that's the point where maybe you can see that the anti Scientology ideology is inadequate to understand somebody, like, understand a scientologist like Elisabeth Moss.

I would submit to you that you won't be able to understand any scientologist, let alone Elisabeth Moss, believing that they're not choosing to be Scientologists, every single day.

Consciously choosing.

Self aware power of choice.

Every day.

If you look at a Scientologist that way, then your understanding of a Scientologist changes. There's all kinds of stuff that starts to collapse on you, if you have adopted this anti Scientology ideology. You can't have that viewpoint about Scientology and Scientologists anymore.

And I, I invite you to try it.

I invite you to embrace both anti Scientology AND Scientology viewpoints and process both.

Do not occlude - if you're an ex scientologist, and you spent many years in Scientology, the worst thing you can do to yourself is to say, "I wasted 30 years of my life, 20 years of my life!"

What you're doing there is that you are occluding that whole part of your life - from yourself. You are walling it off by saying that.

I submit that it is a lie that you're telling yourself about your time as a Scientologist.

I believe that if you examine that area with less of a ideological viewpoint, anti Scientology, ideological viewpoint, then you would see more about yourself. And you would win a whole bunch of treasure about yourself. If you simply quit looking at your time as a Scientologist through the ideology of being an anti scientologist, if you just drop that and look at it, without fear or favor, just examine it.

There's treasure there for an ex Scientologist.

So again, the anti Scientology ideology is not adequate to understand things in a way that is workable. Even I was gonna say constructive. But again, you're looking at things through a little slit, when you should be seeing, you know, like a big wide open door. Walk in the door and look at it. That's the way it should be. Not through little slits of ideological thinking. You made that mistake as a Scientologist. Don't make it again, as an anti Scientologist.

It's not adequate for you to understand your own past, who you were, what you thought about, what you were trying to do.

Those are... you can't forget that about yourself!

Or you are if you, if you re define it, You're redefining it in the worst possible way.

Why? There has to be a very good reason for that.

Now, if you were completely abusive, and you you hurt all kinds of people, that I can see why you would wall that part of yourself off. But the overwhelming majority of Scientologists didn't ever harm anyone, and never would!

Most exes are those people. But when they become antis, they wall this off from themselves. They don't recognize who they used to be anymore - because the anti Scientology ideology doesn't work. It's it's flimsy, it's cartoonish. You can't understand things adequately, if you look at them in a cartoonish way.

So I think this is the biggest mistake that an ex makes. Okay?

It can be - sometimes spent as an as an anti-Scientologist, sometimes spent as that can be therapeutic in itself. Because you're, you're like, "Okay, I was totally forced pro for so many years, and now I can be totally forced anti."

Ok, I can see where that process would would would produce, you know, some kind of gain for you. But there's, there's an end to that process. Okay. That process is not an unlimited process. There's a point where that should end off. That process should end off and you should start stepping back and looking at both objectively.

Do your very best to look at both objectively.

And I think that that is the solution. Okay, for an X.

You have to get to that point. You can't go dive into anti Scientology and then stay there. You can't.

If you, if you talk about wasting your life?

Okay, THAT'S wasting your life.

Over and out.
Can you link to some posts of ours showing we don't believe Scientologists have power of choice?

It's not something I ever wrote or believed.

Except for those physically held as prisoners in The Hole, on the Freewinds, in a chain locker, or elsewhere, they certainly do have power of choice.
But for anyone making life choices, you've got to have truthful information in order to make sane choices.

From the very beginning, people considering joining Scientology or deciding whether to stay in, are fed a steady diet of big lies. Lies about Hubbard, about it all being a science, about the results one can expect from going up the "bridge", and many other things.

There's no evidence that a single Scientologist achieved all the promised abilities of Clear and OT they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for. You're right though in that people chose to stay in. But how many would have stayed had they known the truth about Hubbard, including his inability to resolve his own mental problems despite having access to the very best auditors and C/S's in Scientology? How many would have stayed if they knew that not a single person has achieved all the promised abilities by going up the bridge, or from the L Rundowns?

People choose to join and choose to stay because they're chasing a carrot that does not exist.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
A great example, the best example, is Elisabeth Moss. Loyal Scientologist. Brilliant actress. Brilliant artist. Yet a loyal Scientologist. So does Elisabeth Moss not have the power of choice? She really, you know, she doesn't get up every morning and decide to be a Scientologist?

Is she brainwashed?

See that that's just, that's the point where maybe you can see that the anti Scientology ideology is inadequate to understand somebody, like, understand a scientologist like Elisabeth Moss.

I would submit to you that you won't be able to understand any scientologist, let alone Elisabeth Moss, believing that they're not choosing to be Scientologists, every single day.

Consciously choosing.

Self aware power of choice.

Every day.

If you look at a Scientologist that way, then your understanding of a Scientologist changes. There's all kinds of stuff that starts to collapse on you, if you have adopted this anti Scientology ideology. You can't have that viewpoint about Scientology and Scientologists anymore.

And I, I invite you to try it.

I invite you to embrace both anti Scientology AND Scientology viewpoints and process both.
It’s a huge and magnificently courageous choice to start the journey out of that mind control. It can be a desperate time full of pain and confusion and feeling you are alone in trying to understand what the hell happened. This is only the start of a long life journey towards understanding yourself. And yes that includes examining why you did what you did, believed what you did, absolutely.

The choice to leave scientology is one that is made at a crisis point, usually when it’s imperative for your own survival. The mind control that erodes the ability to make choices, it’s what kept us there. “Don’t think that, don’t look there, don’t listen to that” and so we don’t. Until one day we do - we start to do what we are not meant to, and slowly begin to see another world that was just out of our blinkered view.

To find a liveable balance within that confusion requires deep, personal individual work, and we need help. It can be a life and death situation, I know too many that couldn’t do it and chose to depart this life, especially 2nd gens. Being able to talk on ESMB probably saved my life as a 2nd gen, and I’m not alone in that. We need connection to those with similar experiences, counselling and alternative views. Yes, a tribe, but one we give and take with as needed on an individual basis. Blanket labelling is a scientology tactic.

Part of the process is coming to comprehend the true scope of how our thinking was affected, and a pendulum swing to anger and activism is completely normal. The trick is to find the balance that will bring more personal peace while doing whatever we can to stop the abuses, if we choose to do so.

Talking of 2nd/3rd/4th generations – I completely understand Elizabeth Moss’s situation. When you are born in scientology is ALL you know. There is no choice involved, it is your life in every aspect from your first breath in the morning till you go to sleep at night. To begin to question and become aware of other ways of thinking is indescribably hard. To turn your back on everything you have ever known, loved and cared about, to save yourself, well ... it’s beyond words. There is no “pre scientology comparison”, it can rip your sense of identity, your values, your perceived life purpose to shreds and there are many who just choose not to, because the pain is too much to face. The most common question I asked my psychologist was “Is ... normal?” So although you could call it a choice when they are adults, it certainly doesn’t feel like that. It took me 2 decades and I wasn’t even born in.

The point is that there is no black and white, “you’re pro or anti” end of story. We are all different and that is a wonderful thing. I totally applaud those who stand and fight and expose the crimes and abuses, those who give a hand to the distressed, those who care in their individual ways. You may never know the hell they go through to do that, especially the generational stories of people like Leah and Mike. People who attack them are only showing their own true colours, their own confusion and distress. And that is a choice.
 
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Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Type4 Wrote:

Can you link to some posts of ours showing we don't believe Scientologists have power of choice?
..."posts of ours"...

Make the argument proving the difference between the "brainwashing I was under as a Scientologist" and how that had nothing to do with my own power of choice.

Start.
 
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Glenda

Crusader
Intermission.

I like this clip because Iggy is not wearing socks. And this song is my theme song (in my head) at meetings that go on too long. Ya know when someone is banging on and on and on. Just when you think they may have finished, they seem to hit an invisible "comma pause" and launch back into another 18 paragraphs, regurgitating the same shit they have been banging on about for the past 20 minutes only this time rearranging the words. And you're sitting there discovering the chair you found quite comfortable a few mins ago is now suddenly really damn uncomfortable. And your mind wanders to wonder about what food may be offered during the cup-of-tea stage of the proceedings. All the while humming this song in your head. :)

 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Intermission.

I like this clip because Iggy is not wearing socks. And this song is my theme song (in my head) at meetings that go on too long. Ya know when someone is banging on and on and on. Just when you think they may have finished, they seem to hit an invisible "comma pause" and launch back into another 18 paragraphs, regurgitating the same shit they have been banging on about for the past 20 minutes only this time rearranging the words. And you're sitting there discovering the chair you found quite comfortable a few mins ago is now suddenly really damn uncomfortable. And your mind wanders to wonder about what food may be offered during the cup-of-tea stage of the proceedings. All the while humming this song in your head. :)

Bravo. :hysterical::hysterical:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Type4 Wrote:

..."posts of ours"...

Make the statement proving the difference between the "brainwashing I was under as a Scientologist" and how that had nothing to do with my own power of choice.

Start.
You've claimed to be all about the science, yet I pointed out some days ago that "brainwashing" isn't even a scientific term. I'm not even sure exactly what you mean by it.

Whether brainwashing is a real thing in Scientology or not is insignificant to me, and is just a red herring as has been pointed out to you multiple times.

Scientology utilizes multiple tactics that are deceptive and manipulative to change peoples beliefs. If I believe that "families are not native to a thetan", that our eternity is at stake if I don't disconnect from family members, and there's not much time left to save this sector of the universe, etc., and I believe those things due to years of indoctrination and other methods, then yes, I might choose to disconnect from my family. And in my case personally, I almost did. I don't view it though as lacking power of choice. I see it as temporary insanity. One of the definitions of "insanity" is not knowing right from wrong. And after years of being a Scientologist, I was in that state, or close to it.
 
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