The Worst Thing You Can Do To Yourself As an Ex-Scientologist

[Alanzo]

ESMB user error.

 

[Veda]

David Miscavige is obsessed with eradicating the words "brainwashing" and "cult" from "wog" language.

 

[Alanzo]

You've claimed to be all about the science, yet I pointed out some days ago that "brainwashing" isn't even a scientific term. I'm not even sure exactly what you mean by it.

Whether brainwashing is a real thing in Scientology or not is insignificant to me, and is just a red herring as has been pointed out to you multiple times.

Scientology utilizes multiple tactics that are deceptive and manipulative to change peoples beliefs. If I believe that "families are not native to a thetan", that our eternity is at stake if I don't disconnect from family members, and there's not much time left to save this sector of the universe, etc., and I believe those things due to years of indoctrination and other methods, then yes, I might choose to disconnect from my family. And in my case personally, I almost did. I don't view it though as lacking power of choice. I see it as temporary insanity. One of the definitions of "insanity" is not knowing right from wrong. And after years of being a Scientologist, I was in that state, or close to it.

Nice. This is a thorough and well written answer from your own viewpoint.

This is why I've missed ESMB.

And in my case personally, I almost did. I don't view it though as lacking power of choice. I see it as temporary insanity. One of the definitions of "insanity" is not knowing right from wrong. And after years of being a Scientologist, I was in that state, or close to it.

Really?

As a Scientologist, did you ever kill anyone?

How did Scientology stop you from not knowing right from wrong?

 

[Type4_PTS]

Really?

Yes, that IS really how I see it.

I'm not speaking for anyone else, just me. I have no idea how many others agree with me, nor do I care. It's how I see it. (no tribal leaders told me what to believe)

As a Scientologist, did you ever kill anyone?

One can be insane (per that definition I used) without killing people or attempting to. So I'm not sure how your question is even relevant.

But to answer it, no, I did not. I had duties while on staff which included Course admin, telex op and other HCO functions, was on the TTC for a bit.
Killing people was never required on the posts I held.

But I believe I would have been fine if certain perceived enemies of Scientology were killed. I was briefed (by OSA) that they were some of the most evil beings on the planet and they were attempting to stop Scientology, the most ethical group on the planet. And I believed it.

How did Scientology stop you from not knowing right from wrong?

As I wrote earlier, Scientology utilizes a variety of methods to change the beliefs of it's members, including their morals and values.

For anyone who truly wishes to know the answer to your question though on how Scientology stops people from knowing right from wrong, I would advise them to study Jefferson Hawkin's series as the first step to understanding how.

Jefferson Hawkins: Getting our ethics in
https://tonyortega.org/jefferson-hawkins-getting-our-ethics-in/

 

[Type4_PTS]

@Alanzo,

Here's a definition of "brainwashing" I got off a random on-line dictionary. Is this what you mean when using the term?

https://psychologydictionary.org/brainwashing/

 

[Alanzo]

As I wrote earlier, Scientology utilizes a variety of methods to change the beliefs of it's members, including their morals and values.

Show us how Scientology changed your beliefs, including your morals and values.

 

[Glenda]

My discovery about language:

For me there have been stages of leaving scientology and this whole ex-scientologist thing. In the beginning I was a complete mess. My head was full of scientology words and concepts. I was living in a foreign country and struggling with the basics of getting through a day because of not having any local language skills (Chinese). That became highly relevant to inspecting what was going on internally. I became acutely aware of language and its potential value both externally in life, and internally with how I felt and behaved. I realised how my thoughts were not under my own volition. E.g. One day I saw a man fall heavily off a bicycle onto concrete. I almost heard his bones crack. I instantly thought "Gosh he's really PTS." In that moment I caught that thought and said to myself "what if the all-accidents-are-due-to-PTSness" is not true? What if there is something else?" It was an excruciating thought. The all-accidents-PTS thought had been automatic. It felt like I had hit into something invading my own thoughts. Someone else's concepts. My mind felt toxic, invaded. I started to notice these automatic all-scientology-based thoughts. The programming if you like. It was influencing me in nearly every thought or feeling I had. It seemed like my original thoughts would get overlayed by the scientology words/concepts. It influenced my responses and how I behaved in the world. Quite frankly this discovery was terrifying.

I began to undo the internal language of all-things-scientology. Reframing became a constant and exhausting process. I do call this mind control because it did feel like my mind had been controlled by the stuff that had been drummed into me during my 20 years of scientology. I had lost a lot of my own volition because of my devotion to Hubbard and scientology. It took some serious work to forgive myself for doing that to myself. I had my reasons which I then dug out and explored. Deeply personal stuff. My darkest shit, my deepest fears and insecurities. I let them be exploited. Me. I know my own vulnerabilities and why I got involved in scientology. And trust me it isn’t a pretty “I wanted to save the world” stuff. It is deeper than that obvious view.

I have written more but not ready to post it.

 

[Glenda]

Part 2 of my discovery about language:

My next stage was to try out who I might become, what I might be capable of without using any scientology parameters in my head/life. To fully do that I eventually needed to step away from any possible influences from former scientologists. I didn't want to do that because it felt like a scary thing to do. I don't give a rats clacker what others think of that. It was how it was for me. I wanted to be in contact with ex-scientologists. They seemed like the only people in the world that I could honestly relate to. They kept reconfirming a mind-set I had through the early stages of my leaving scientology. One day I knew I had to quietly walk away from it ALL. It was time to go walk my talk in the big ugly world and truly connect with people who were not part of my past. I feel comfortable that I have achieved this fairly well.

I have now returned to ESMB because I honestly enjoy some of the characters that hang out here. But I don't have the same opinions I used to have. I see & experience things very differently. Scientology for me was full of moments of crazy shit. I loved some of the people I worked with. I sometimes still miss them. I wish them all the very best even though I suspect they would prefer I disappear off the face of the earth. I did learn a lot in scientology. Some of it was good, a lot wasn’t. A few skills have been transferable to my "new" life but I am highly aware of these and have adapted them to be more flexible and appropriate for the life I now live.

I absolutely know that every person that leaves scientology is facing some very tough stuff. Each of us tackle it the best we can and hopefully move towards old age with some dignity, grace and peace. Often I sense unresolved stuff in ex’s. They seem to be caught in a treadmill type experience, going round and round and never breaking free of that. I recognise in that what I went through but rarely, if ever, would I say anything about this. I am too busy living my own life and trying to own my own shit without getting caught up in anyone else's "story". Some might say I am being selfish and should try to help others. To that I say, the old Glenda with her “save the world” and scientology help concepts would have. The “new” Glenda is quiet.

The issue of choice seems to be fairly big for ex's. What we think. What we feel. How we grow as people. I row my own boat. I built this boat, found my own oars. I've had some stunning love and support along the way. I possibly made more mistakes than many, and found my "shore" after being bashed up against some sharp rocks. Imperfection often rules and perfection helps ease those moments. I can only live my own life. How everyone else lives, feels, behaves is entirely in their own hands. If someone bashes me with their boat, I now know what to do and how to deal with any of my own shit that may be triggered.

Having made my peace with so much, I sincerely wish this for others. It is a precious gift which I never take for granted. I now find I have genuine gratitude for the scientology experience. I could not recommend scientology to anyone though. The cost was high, in so many ways but my God I have learned so much along the way. It has been quite an extraordinary journey. I have managed to blend the whole story into a version of "shit happens and then life goes on" and found a lot of ways to laugh about it all. Having said that I will never laugh at anyone or condone cruelty. And the suffering of others is not up for poxy jokes either.

Life is deliciously grey. I get to chose the colour in my life. I had no idea this could be done, until I tried. No guidebook, little to no external influences and God help anyone that tries to influence my internal world. My boat. My oars. I highly recommend leaving scientology, doing some hard work and finding some peace.

I hereby submit my success story. (Roars with laughter and hits reply to thread)

 

[Free Being Me]

The point is that there is no black and white, “you’re pro or anti” end of story. We are all different and that is a wonderful thing. I totally applaud those who stand and fight and expose the crimes and abuses, those who give a hand to the distressed, those who care in their individual ways. You may never know the hell they go through to do that, especially the generational stories of people like Leah and Mike. People who attack them are only showing their own true colours, their own confusion and distress. And that is a choice.

I agree. We are all different yet we all smile in the same language. It's fascinating how we share commonalities while having our own unique personalities and identities. It's been a journey rediscovering my own individuality after $cientology. That was something that only I could do.

I've noticed that individuality is the first thing cult leaders and authoritarians and totalitarians go after. $cientology has that in spades.

I too applaud the people speaking out and also agree with your true colors comment.

 

[pineapple]

How did Scientology stop you from not knowing right from wrong?

On two occasions while in scn I physically stopped someone from "blowing." The first time it was a fellow staff member. We took her ID and locked her in her office. (When we eventually let her out she did blow.) The second time it was a public student. I pushed him and yelled at him and intimidated him into not leaving. I was prepared to get as physical as necessary. I thought, "I CANNOT let this person leave." I would have done whatever it took. I totally thought I was right.

Someone I knew in scn told me he and another person had stolen Robert Kaufman's "Inside Scientology: How I Joined Scientology and Became Superhuman" from the local public library and destroyed it at the behest of the GO (forerunner of OSA). I thought this was okay, even commendable, despite what the "Creed of the Church of Scientology" says about how "All men have the right to think freely, to speak freely, to write freely," etc. I was aware that destroying a book critical of scn was hypocritical according to the creed, but still thought it was okay, because I recognized that the Creed was strictly a PR thing and had no relation to how REAL scngsts actually thought or behaved.

Before I started the Comm Course, I read Paulette Cooper's "The Scandal of Scientology." I was frankly turned off by the sensationalistic tabloid tone, and thought the book was probably highly exaggerated if not downright untrue. The scngsts I'd met seemed like such nice people, I couldn't believe scngsts could really be guilty of the things Cooper alleged.

After I'd been on staff for a while, I discovered that these nice scngsts in fact believed the things that Cooper alleged WERE TRUE, and they thought it was totally okay that scn had persecuted her like that. I was disturbed by this and thought, "Wow. Is this okay? That's more serious than just destroying a book. I'll have to think about this." But I didn't really think about it. I just kind of pushed it down in my mind and "not-ised" it. I didn't really think about it until much later.

 

[He-man]

People need simplistic explanations for Scientology because it’s too much work to understand it.

The anti-Scientologist mindset is too simplistic and cartoonish to understand what you were doing when you were a Scientologist.

The way I see it, you are a victim of the narrative that you are trying to explain.

Yes people need simplistic explanations, what's new here? Your own reasoning around Tribalism is one good example of a simplification, for instance.

You seem to ignore the protests people are voicing against binding ESMB users together into the "anti-Scientologist" movement, but here it goes again. To polarize all members of the ex community, into a bi polar structure so that you can explain to everyone what "we" think, feel, do, whatever - is wrong. You're doing it again.

The ex community is too diverse for your simplistic models. Proof of that, me, type 4, Veda, Paul, Emma, Enthetan, Freethinker etc, we are all light years from each other in our way of reasoning around politics and Scientology, as two examples. The only solid ideas we share is that Scientology sucks, but here is the flippin kicker on that, we do not all define Scientology the same, and have very different views on what it is that we think sucks with Scientology! It's like, we're the ideal dysfunctional family. Way cooler then the Adams family.

"The worst thing you can do to yourself as an Ex?"

Well I can think of a lot of things worse then playing dysfunctionados on a message board. Fekkin suicides worse. Posting peoples DA files is way worse. Staying in Scientology is also way worse. Eating oreos for brekkie is also really bad. But having a diverse and strongly opinionated passion for all things Scientology isn't that bad to be honest.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Show us how Scientology changed your beliefs, including your morals and values.

You've used the non-scientific term "brainwashing" numerous times since you've been back, such as this instance earlier in this thread I quoted below.
Yet, when you've been asked a couple times to give a definition that aligns with your understanding of it, you ignore it.

I've got no interest in participating in a one-way conversation. Before I answer your question, please define the term "brainwashing", giving a definition that fits your concept of the word.

Your quote:
"Brainwashing, and mind control and brainwashing are of course, choice denying, choice annihilating mechanisms.

So therefore, the people who are Scientologists are Scientologists because they're brainwashed to be that way.

Well, you know, actually, that's not true. They, they made a choice. And every morning they get up and they make that same choice every day. To remain a Scientologist. The degree that you want to deny that person, his own power of choice is the degree to which you would like to dehumanize him. Because it is the power of choice that makes people human. It's what we say, gives them agency. It's the basis of all law and rights and civil rights."

 

[Alanzo]

You've used the non-scientific term "brainwashing" numerous times since you've been back, such as this instance earlier in this thread I quoted below.
Yet, when you've been asked a couple times to give a definition that aligns with your understanding of it, you ignore it.

I've got no interest in participating in a one-way conversation. Before I answer your question, please define the term "brainwashing", giving a definition that fits your concept of the word.

Your quote:
"Brainwashing, and mind control and brainwashing are of course, choice denying, choice annihilating mechanisms.

So therefore, the people who are Scientologists are Scientologists because they're brainwashed to be that way.

Well, you know, actually, that's not true. They, they made a choice. And every morning they get up and they make that same choice every day. To remain a Scientologist. The degree that you want to deny that person, his own power of choice is the degree to which you would like to dehumanize him. Because it is the power of choice that makes people human. It's what we say, gives them agency. It's the basis of all law and rights and civil rights."

You demand that I define the term and then you quote one of the definitions I have provided.

Elsewhere Paul employed the same tactic: Pretending that I never answered something when I did.

Did I not present you with the definition you wanted? Do you want a different one from me than the one you quoted?

 

[Type4_PTS]

You demand that I define the term and then you quote one of the definitions I have provided.

Elsewhere Paul employed the same tactic: Pretending when I never answered something when I did.

Did I not present you with the definition you wanted? Do you want a different one from me than the one you quoted?

I did not see any post of yours with definitions. If I did I wouldn't have asked for them. I'm sure the same goes for @Dulloldfart

Where did you post them?

 

[Dulloldfart]

Elsewhere Paul employed the same tactic: Pretending that I never answered something when I did.

I pretended nothing. You stated the answer to my question was in one of two videos. I read the transcripts of both videos, again, afterwards. I didn't see the answer there. I'm not challenging that you see the answer there.

Paul

 

[Alanzo]

I did not see any post of yours with definitions. If I did I wouldn't have asked for them. I'm sure the same goes for @Dulloldfart

Where did you post them?

Did you see the quote of mine that you posted just above? It contained a definition for brainwashing.

Did you not read that?

 

[Alanzo]

I pretended nothing. You stated the answer to my question was in one of two videos. I read the transcripts of both videos, again, afterwards. I didn't see the answer there. I'm not challenging that you see the answer there.

Paul

Right. It's the answer that you wanted to see, rather than the answer I provided.

Like a dirty needle drill.

I'm hip to that kind of stuff, you know.

 

[Alanzo]

FTS wrote:

Talking of 2nd/3rd/4th generations – I completely understand Elizabeth Moss’s situation. When you are born in scientology is ALL you know. There is no choice involved, it is your life in every aspect from your first breath in the morning till you go to sleep at night. To begin to question and become aware of other ways of thinking is indescribably hard.

I disagree.

It is no different than the courage necessary to leave a long term marriage. And in most Scientologists, especially those who have been public all their lives and are not in the Sea Org, leaving a long term marriage with kids, etc takes way more courage than the choice to leave scientology.

This was the basis for the "Poor Mike Rinder, he was BRAINWASHED INTO RUNNING THE OFFICE OF DAVID MISCAVIGE FOR 22 YEARS!" argument, and it is a justification that is still used to day.

Using the power of choice to understand Scientologists such as Elizabeth Moss and Mike Rinder is WAY more illuminating than the poor Mike Rinder Brainwashing Defense.

The brainwashing defense has never worked in a court of law. All members of NXVIIM have been convicted. The Scientologist who drove cross country to kill his sister and brother in law has received the death penalty.

Rex Fowler is still in jail.

Assume the power of choice rather than brainwashing, and everything becomes clearer. There is a treasure chest of understanding there for yourself and others.

The Scientology Brainwashing Defense

 

[Type4_PTS]

Did you see the quote of mine that you posted just above? It contained a definition for brainwashing.

Did you not read that?

LOL, I didn't recognize it as a definition because it wasn't identified as such, and isn't a definition I've ever seen before.

What's your source for that particular definition? Or is it one you just made up yourself?

 

[He-man]

It is no different than the courage necessary to leave a long term marriage. And in most Scientologists, especially those who have been public all their lives and are not in the Sea Org, leaving a long term marriage with kids, etc takes way more courage than the choice to leave scientology.

Wow. Really?

You really have no idea what you are talking about Alanzo. The way you so seriously push your point across makes me doubt you have any experience at all either as a person born into Scientology or as having been in a serious relationship.

First of all, if you are born into Scientology, it isn't voluntary and your primary caretakers are Scientologists. You are also not a grown person.

Secondly, if you get into a serious relationship, that is something you choose. See the difference there? Also, most of us don't sleep around with our primary caretakers.

Third, as a 2nd generation Scientologist there is also the slight chance that you have other family members that you are emotionally dependent on. Siblings, grannies, cousins, aunts and uncles.

So, if you break with Scientology, you run a very large risk to break with all of them lovely people you so emotionally depend on.

Because, Scientology, as you well know, practice disconnection!

How you can even compare the two is just so astounding to me. You just never cease to amaze these days. In fact, I would like to declare you, amazing. Just. Pure. Amazeing.

How the fekk did you come to this conclusion???