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The Worst Thing You Can Do To Yourself As an Ex-Scientologist

Discussion in 'Life After Scientology' started by Alanzo, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Alanzo, it's better to use the "Post Reply" button when responding to someone as you did here. That way they are actually alerted when someone replied to their post.

    Alternatively, you can also alert them by putting the "@" sign before their name. Like this: @Free to shine
  2. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    From leaving long terms relationships and a marriage, and seeing friends do the same.

    And from leaving Scientology after 16 years, and seeing friends do the same.
  3. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    Not everyone sits on the same mountain mate, come on! You should know this by now!

    You love to speak about the power of choice, I get it, I really do, but it isn't that simple. Have you no fear of consequence? Can you not take a step back from your very assertive stance and see that not everyone walked your path?

    Like, you say that "someones gotta be the asshole" That's not actually true. You can be assertive without being that. It's a very defensive stance to take, and ironically, chosen.
    Type4_PTS likes this.
  4. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    For one excellent source, there's the monster forensic psychologist Dick Anthony, who wiped the floor with "brainwashing" proponents in courts of law, under the rules of evidence, in the 80's and 90's. He destroyed their interpretations of Lifton's work and got Margaret Singer stripped of her ability to serve as a court-appointed expert in deprogramming cases.

    He is a highly enlightening person to read on this subject. Anti-cultist hystericals such as Steven Hassan and Jon Atack have carefully tried to bury any mention of him as an alternative to the belief system they push on Exes of minority religions.

    "For instance, like other totalitarian ideologies, brainwashing formulations are highly dualistic; that is, they divide the world into their version of the saved and the damned. Only non-brainwashed people are really people, whereas brainwashed people are non-people with shadow selves because they lack the essential characteristics of authentic personhood, that is, rationality and free will. "

    - Dick Anthony, Misunderstanding Cults, by Benjamin Zablocki

    Here's more:

    Anticult Brainwashing Ideology as Totalism
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  5. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    I have a new one now.

    So show us why it takes less courage to leave a long term marriage with kids, for instance, than it does for Elizabeth Moss to leave Scientology.

    It's understandable why lots of people lack the courage to leave Scientology, even as 2nd and 3rd gens. But lots of 2nd and 3rd gens DO leave the cult, too. Don't those people count in yours or FTS's equations?
  6. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    Thank-you but that wasn't an answer to my post.

    I was simply asking for the source for the definition you provided.

    I put it into Google but nothing came up.
  7. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    OK, so this is what I thought. Maybe you are not actually reading the answers I give you.

    Here it is again. See the red, bolded part below.

    "For instance, like other totalitarian ideologies, brainwashing formulations are highly dualistic; that is, they divide the world into their version of the saved and the damned. Only non-brainwashed people are really people, whereas brainwashed people are non-people with shadow selves because they lack the essential characteristics of authentic personhood, that is, rationality and free will. "

    Can you see it? Should I make it bigger?

    Did you read his whole article that I linked for you?

    Would you like a link to the full book?

    I literally can not give you a more thorough answer to your direct question to me than this.

    I'll bet that you will still not see my answer.

    And, 4...3....2....
  8. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    Yes I noticed.

    Speaking of answering questions, I have none to answer. You got to have to figure that one out for yourself.
    tesseract likes this.
  9. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    This is a genuine non-answering of a question I posed to you.

    Maybe you missed it. Here it is again:

    It's understandable why lots of people lack the courage to leave Scientology, even as 2nd and 3rd gens. But lots of 2nd and 3rd gens DO leave the cult, too. Don't those people count in yours or FTS's equations?
  10. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    You have to figure that one out yourself. Sorry.
  11. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

    I still don't see the answer to my question because you've not answered it.

    You can make the font as large as you'd like but that won't turn a "no-answer" into an answer.
  12. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    Is this the birth of the new Karen? is Alanzo...

    Karen 2.0?

    I Kid the Alanzo.
  13. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    This is similar to something I wrote about Scientologists back in the day. The same phenomena occurs with anti-Scientologists, as well. It has to do with thinking with an ideology that does not contain the concept the ideologue is being presented with to understand.

    Way back in 2013 I noticed, in dealing with Scientologists on the Internet:

    I’ve seen it now. It is unmistakable.
    It works like this: You present an idea that has NOTHING to do with Scientology, and the Scientologist must relate it to something in Scientology to “understand” what you are talking about.​

    Example: I wrote something on an Internet forum frequented by Scientologists called “Theoretical Constructs vs. Actual Facts”. I wanted to make the point that facts are different from the conclusions which evolve from thinking about them.​

    For instance, the concept of “Imperialism” comes from observing nations setting up colonies all around the world.​
    Colonies are a fact. You can point to them. You can visit them and even touch parts of them. They exist in time and space.​
    Imperialism, however, is a theoretical construct used to explain those facts.​

    Imperialism does not exist in a way that can be proven and touched like facts can. Imperialism is something that exists only in our heads. It is used to think about and explain the facts of colonies. The concept of Imperialism contains certain conclusions and comments and attitudes which may or may not be related to a colony as it really exists.​

    I wanted to make the point that if you fill your head with unprovable theoretical constructs, not grounded in facts, then your reasoning suffers. I gave example after example. I showed how substituting facts for theoretical constructs leads to more accurate conclusions in the reasoning process. And I showed that if you use theoretical constructs to do all your thinking for you – without being continually grounded in facts – you go off the rails.​
    This is a pretty simple concept, really.​


    I watched one Scientologist after another come in and relate this to Scientology thought patterns – one after the other.​
    “Oh, I get it. Like the physical universe vs. the theta universe!”​

    “It’s like Mass vs. significance!”​

    “Theory vs. Practical!”​

    Or “Para-Scientology vs. Scientology!”​

    It was endless. Only one Scientologist got it. It was this guy from Norway named Geir. Every single other Scientologist could not understand this concept outside of something in Scientology. And therefore, since this concept does not exist in Scientology, they never understood it.​
    And I saw: This is what makes Scientologists stupid.​

    Their thinking must follow only certain patterns and never others.​

    If a unique concept is not mentioned in Scientology, then the Scientologist must change the concept to fit into their existing Scientology thinking patterns, rather than adapting their thinking to the unique concept so as to understand it as itself.​
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  14. Type4_PTS

    Type4_PTS Diamond Invictus SP

  15. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

  16. Free to shine

    Free to shine Shiny & Free

    OK I’ll bite. But not for you Alanzo, for the people reading who actually are interested in the difference between joining scientology and being born into it.

    Think back to your parents or primary caregivers. The ones who taught you how to brush your teeth, eat your food, deal with cuts and scrapes, play nicely with others, and generally learn to deal with the world as you take your first tentative toddles into it.

    Now stretch your imagination a bit. See those same parents teaching you that you are actually an adult in a small body and therefore must deal with life that way. That when you cry you are “downstat” and “banky” and the fact that your brother hit you is your fault because of your “overts”, not because he was being a little shit that day and trying to understand the world himself.

    That when you are sick you are “PTS” and that maze of a concept leads back to it being your fault, maybe even in another life. That often your parents are simply not there at all, and your life is run on stats. Imagine everyone around you – grandparents, siblings, cousins, friends are all scientologists and this is the only world you know.

    As an adult you are presented with a concept and you either choose to believe it or not. A child doesn’t have that choice, the very nitty gritty basic concepts of survival are absorbed in the first years of life. And if that is a scientology concept of life, imagine how hard it is to work it all out in later years. Stretch your thinking a bit to imagine everything you may have struggled with as an adult scientologist, from the viewpoint of a child, and what kind of self image that can leave.

    This is not about brainwashing, it’s much more primal than that. It’s the very tools you start out with in life.

    And if you do choose different concepts when you are older, you are guaranteed to lose ALL your family who are still scientologists and apply it’s rules. Imagine the pain of losing your spouse, children, parents, siblings, extended family and give up everything you were taught as a child. Your whole world. I have lived that mate and I live with it now, and I still struggle with knowing that I raised my own children that way, and suffer the sad consequences.

    Read some of the stories of 2nd generations, I have read most and I can tell you they are mind-blowingly eye opening. Don’t gloss over the HOW 2nd gens leave their upbringing behind, and what it cost them. Many can't even begin to talk about it. I can make a list of books of the brave souls who have spoken out if needed. The children of scientology rank high up there on the list of the worst trauma and abuse scientology has caused and continues to cause, not too often seen and only in recent years beginning to be heard more about as they grow older.

    As I said, this is not about “brainwashing” or excusing behaviour, it is about understanding. You know, those shades of grey that scientologists are unfamiliar with.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    Lurker5, Glenda and Free Being Me like this.
  17. Dotey OT

    Dotey OT Cyclops Duck of the North - BEWARE

    For extra credit, who might have said this?:

    Ok, here is the deal. We want you to post A LOT of bad stuff about Mike and Leah. LOTS! Say bad things about them all!! And while you are at it, really get everyone on ESMB in an uproar. We'll pay you by the number of people that stop posting. We'll pay you by the number of threads calling people ninnies! Then we'll pay you by the number of posts to those threads. Make as many threads as possible saying the same things over and over. Really take up room there, act like you own it!! We know you'll get shut down by some people there, but just keep at it.

    Then we want you to post as much bad stuff against anyone that:

    1. Has their own website or blog.
    2. Is known in the world to be saying derogatory things about the cherch as it stands.

    Then get ready to start saying bad things about the people that are plaintiffs in the lawsuits against the cherch. We will tell you when to start doing that.

    Do this until we say don't do it.
    tesseract likes this.
  18. Glenda

    Glenda Crusader

    I can answer this. I did both, simultaneously. I left a long-term marriage and scientology at the same time. It wasn't about courage though. It was about a whole lot of other stuff which would take far too many pages to explain.

    So I will summarise the experience, short version, best I can.

    Fact: I left my marriage because of infidelity (he fucked had sexual relations with a whole load of prostitutes). There was also abuse (various kinds) and his hatred of me because I was giving up scientology.

    Fact: I left scientology because of a weird awakening I had. My life literally changed as quick as you can click your fingers. Bang!

    I am eliminating courage out of the equation because none of what happened was about courage. People have said that to me over the years . "You had so much courage Glenda, blah, blah, blah". I had no courage. I was terrified about 99% of the time. It was about fighting for my sanity, my life. It was about fighting for my sense of myself. I was fighting to regain my rights as a human being. I was fighting to regain full volition of my own thoughts. I did not actually want to leave scientology. I married for life, with true commitment but there I was in the middle of hell on earth, fearing for my sanity and my life. God that sounds dramatic but it really is how it was. Some of what happened was wild.

    So which one, in retrospect, was easier to leave? The marriage. There is one other thing I will add for context. Once I got some professional help I was referred to Women's Refuge. I was, apparently, in an abusive relationship. Who knew. I didn't. I thought fearing for my life was part of what I deserved because I was leaving scientology. I could context this because I was still thinking with scientology ideas. I was the enemy. Fair-game. He, Mr. Tech-trained and just-back-from-Flag, hated me because I was jumping ship. Sounds crazy? It was.

    I did some classes about relationship abuse with Women's Refuge. I got to explore relationship abuse and how that, in some ways, transferred to scientology. It was interesting. I somehow got away from him. I found a hint of strength and a friend helped me. I was broken, completely traumatised and with a head full of scientology stuff to still sort out. Sorting that out was way more difficult than what had happened in the latter stages of the marriage. The attachments go way deeper. Eternity is a far bigger deal than the bloke one is married to. This is why divorce is often rampant in scientology. One can flick a spouse who is not on purpose way easier when the big carrot has a strong hold on the individual. I spent a lot more hours talking about scientology with a psychologist I worked with than I did the marriage.

    Given I have eliminated the need for courage to leave a long-term marriage or scientology I will say it took energy. It took a commitment to myself to survive and rebuild. It took a whole lot of things but it wasn't courage. Courage tends to lean towards dignity or something lofty, decent. I had no dignity throughout those dark days. My mind was full of scientology language and I had no idea how to function without using it. One of the issues that came up fairly early on was the way I made decisions. I automatically used a scientology method. A therapist asked me one day "how did you make decisions when you were in scientology?" I almost could not breathe as it hit me that I used scientology stuff for so much.

    Scientology goes deep. It generates an invisible loyalty, an unhealthy unexplored attachment. It sets up fears about losing one's eternity if one doesn't follow the scientology guidebook. Marriages are about other stuff. They are nowhere near as deep and bonding as scientology.

    I risk none of the above making a lot of sense because I am trying to condense something which played out over about one year and which took a lot of work to gain some level of comprehension. It took a lot of energy to unravel the mess and move forward. I therefore apologise in advance if this post is a tad - or a lot - baffling. :)

    Note to self: Do not post Bowie: Rebel Rebel vid at bottom of this post no matter how strong the urge may be to do so.
    Lurker5 and Wilbur like this.
  19. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    So you like to label Scientologists in the main as stupid. Nicely done!

    It's quite simple to understand the concept of an abstraction Alan. Why don't you want people to use that useful faculty of thought?

    Don't you like that your crusade is being abstracted to some simplicities?

    I think you mean well in trying to point out that it's not the best idea to beat oneself up over having been involved. Try to find what was good. Drop the bad. All well and good. However, some people are pretty upset when the find out the facts. They feel all kinds of ways about it. It is something they have to work through.

    I haven't seen you speak to the needs of the poor never-been-ins that express outrage over the abuses. I think you should consider beefing up your collection of articles with some words of wisdom for them too. Hmm, what would that be titled... "The worst thing you could do if you were never in scientology would be to criticize it because you might just be joining a cult that is just as bad"
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  20. Alanzo

    Alanzo Bardo Tulpa

    Glenda. My use of the concept of courage and leaving a marriage was to find some kind of real world context that can increase perspective and judgement on the experience of leaving scientology.

    Ex scientologists, in terms of hardship and life struggles, are not unique from other humans and their hardships and struggles. Leaving scientology is not different enough from any other loss of faith to separate it out from comparing it to what other humans have experienced in similar circumstances.

    And when you start doing that - comparing leaving with what other people have done? It's not that big of a deal compared to war, famine, or even waking up and finding out your husband of 20 years has a whole nother family in another town.

    It's the constant use of artificial specialness and the contrived uniqueness of the experience that can be alienating and cause a bunch of hysteria for Exes.

    That's why I compared it to the courage of leaving a long term marriage. In terms of self identity and fear of the unknown, I think it can me compared.

    And should be.