Thetans don't exteriorize because...

[Voltaire's Child]

Scientologists - and sometimes others who want to discuss Scn- occasionally discuss the concept of exteriorization. This means a being leaves his or her body. It's similar but not identical to the theory of astral travel where a person has a sort of cord attaching the spirit to the body, so that the spirit can find its way back to the body.

What I think the one real error in thinking that is likely to be found in many of those discussing exteriorization is that thetans (spirits, beings, souls) do not move in and out of bodies because thetans have no mass. They do not occupy space. They don't occupy bodies. They think they do, it sure feels like it, but they don't. A spirit does not occupy space. It can direct attention here and there, it can have its attention stuck somewhere or it can have its attention freed up somewhat or to a great deal or completely (everything in life being a matter of degree) but it does not occupy space. Thetans have no physical location but they can and do put their attention anywhere.

None of us are in our bodies. It just seems that way.

 

[Tiger Lily]

Wow! I think I just went exterior reading that post!! :wink2:


(In all seriousness, that was a great point and it did align something for me -- can't believe I never thought of that. thanks)

-TL

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Out of the blue...comes...

Scientologists - and sometimes others who want to discuss Scn- occasionally discuss the concept of exteriorization.

...snip..

Thetans have no physical location but they can and do put their attention anywhere.

None of us are in our bodies. It just seems that way.

Sounds 'bout right to me.

And that pretty well covers the subject as far as it can be taken with language, IMHO.

EP!

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

From what I can understand, your average common or garden "human type" Thetan is in pretty bad shape. We typically need a body to see with and to move MEST with. We perceive from a very limited spatial viewpoint. We are stuck in the MEST universe. We are where we perceive from; our viewpoint. This viewpoint can be either inside or outside of the body. Being outside of the body it can be difficult to control the body, and a bit scary.

I'm not sure if it was a dream or a memory, but I do recall exteriorising whilst riding a motorcycle. Now that is not a good idea, trying to balance a body on a motorcycle from a hundred feet up. I didn't get to the natural end of that recall, but I can imagine it ending in a crash!

I did once have the (this lifetime) experience of relaxing in a chair and feeling as though I was falling out the bottom of my head. Of course this "out of control" feeling was very scary and I snapped back in HARD. Who knows, by the time reach OTXXXXXIV I may get the confidence to peak over the balcony again.

 

[Div6]

Scientologists - and sometimes others who want to discuss Scn- occasionally discuss the concept of exteriorization. This means a being leaves his or her body. It's similar but not identical to the theory of astral travel where a person has a sort of cord attaching the spirit to the body, so that the spirit can find its way back to the body.

What I think the one real error in thinking that is likely to be found in many of those discussing exteriorization is that thetans (spirits, beings, souls) do not move in and out of bodies because thetans have no mass. They do not occupy space. They don't occupy bodies. They think they do, it sure feels like it, but they don't. A spirit does not occupy space. It can direct attention here and there, it can have its attention stuck somewhere or it can have its attention freed up somewhat or to a great deal or completely (everything in life being a matter of degree) but it does not occupy space. Thetans have no physical location but they can and do put their attention anywhere.

None of us are in our bodies. It just seems that way.

Interesting. I would say that there is a world of difference between thinking, and considering (positive postulating). A lot of beings have fallen from the postulate band, and no longer even consider that they can be causative over MEST...its all just the body or something.

Further, beings CAN occupy space, even if it is just by consideration.

Theta, in its pure form has no mass, wavelength, location in space or time, but has the ability to postulate and perceive. But most thetans have "impurities".....attendant pictures with mass held in place by considerations and agreements. It is the addressing of these underlying postulates that Dianetics addresses, for example.

And, I guarantee that if some other thetan were to make a move to take over your body, you would have something to say to that other being, and most likely it wouldn't be too nice.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I kinda thought maybe beings only existed in (though "in" implies location. I know my posts on this are imperfect. Pls bear with me.) the theta universe.

 

[Panda Termint]

Thetans don't exteriorize because... they most often think of "themselves" in physical terms.

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Such language!

Thetans don't exteriorize because... they most often think of "themselves" in physical terms.

Ya mean most bein's are vibratin' in the worldly sphere rather than groovin' in the dimension of the great stroke, Panda?

EP

 

[nexus100]

Imagine looking at things from the viewpoint of a huge ball. You can look at anything from any point in the ball anytime you wish.
Then, imagine having only one viewpoint. Of all the quadrillion potential viewpoints on the ball you have one outlook. This is your choice to have one viewpoint. And a quadrillion other parts of the ball suddenly also have one viewpoint.

That is the story of veiwpoint in this universe. We are looking into the universe from one perspective instead of from the total point of view of God. Others have their perspectives but, as for you, that simply reflects what they are seeing (or have seen or believe they have seen). As one understands other viewpoints one's perspective grows. Reducing one's own viewpoint reduces perspective. Perspective also includes understanding and love.
The method, the engineering, behind this system is understandable. In fact it is so simple the process of understainding is really of seeing simplicity. One understands one viewpoint at a time, including one's own.

"We" are "here" only because we identify with what we see in various ways. When one understands anything one is gaining perspective. The method of understanding is what all the hubbub is about. But if you see the goal as knowing viewpoints it all starts to make more sense.

 

[Dulloldfart]

I'm not going to copypasta it in, but I made some relevant comments here:
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=2364&p=42591

Others made useful comments on the same subject in the thread too.

I have some new comments:

There has to be an interface between the meat body we are very familiar with and the spirit-thing that animates it. Hubbard called different "things" by the same name, "thetan", and it gets very hard to tie it all together if you think he was talking about the same "thing" every time he used the word. Plus he didn't necessarily get it all right, and by "right" I mean in accordance with what actually is. I'll assume valid the paradigm of the spirit-thing animating the meat body. And I'll call the spirit-thing a thing even though it supposedly has no mass etc.

So how does an intangible thing with no real physical presence have an effect on a VERY tangible meat body? The logical answer (!) is by using gradient scales, interlocking stages of subtle plasma energy, a bit like the top gear of a 10-speed bicycle works well but you can't vroom-vroom instantly in top gear straight from a standing start. But the very insubstantial spirit-thing can have, by inductance or harmonic resonance or whatever, an effect on a not-quite-so-insubstantial etheric plasma body. And by the same mechanism that etheric plasma body can have an effect on an adjacent and interpenetrating plasma layer that is slightly more substantial. Repeat this through several layers of "gearing", with the layer next to the physical being the coarsest, and lo and behold there is an interface in action.

I'm talking about the human aura, the human energy field, of course. I've posted here before how pretty much anyone can view their own, at least the coarsest level or two of it. This human aura seems to be what Hubbard was describing as the History of Man thumb-in-the-sliver thetan analogy, where the sliver is the body and the thumb is the thetan.

Paul

 

[Leon]

Good post Fluff.

While you are at it could you explain to me where/what the "theta universe" is that you refer to. I've been in Scio nearly 40 years and this one still eludes me.

 

[RogerB]

Nice Post Fluffy

In actuality, in its optimum state, a spiritual Being is infinite. That is infinite in size and without any location or dimension.

That might be called its "Native" or Natural State.

But then change happened . . . we run into things we didn't want to experience for example, and we withdraw our presence. Or we got highly interested in something and very intensely focused our awareness and presence down into that location. Both these actions, for example, changed our natural state, and we became fixed and limited as to our presence and state of Being . . . now you are beginning to get down into the realm of where most humans operate.

We, as human existences, are the product of lots of withdrawal from our natural state of infiniteness of Being and presence. And obviously, use of the body mechanics for perception is a via we have come to need and/or rely on because, for various reasons we have turned off our full natural ability and power of direct perception.

In that Ascension Experience I wrote of a few weeks ago, you'll recall I was knowingly spanning the 1,200 miles between Brisbane and Melbourne and actually viewing the coastline as though from a satellite; and also able to focus on a particular person in Melbourne and perceive its future. (I have had a number of such experiences of spanning future time, even avoiding of preventing disaster or unwanted occurrances; and also experiences of spanning space to view other locations than "here" where my body is. Maybe these for AE write-ups later.)

These are natural attributes of you the Spiritual Being . . . . it is only a matter of knowingly directing and focusing your awareness and presence. You can assume any position within your infinite domain of spiritual existence/presence. It's simply a matter of how aware you are, and your level of volition (free choice). Note what I said there: You can, by choice, assume any position or location withing your infinite domain of spiritual existence/presence. If you are too stuck and/or too limited, then you will likely be in your head and wondering what it's all about. If you have recovered your volition and control of your awareness sufficiently, then you can be as and where you choose.

The processes are available that facilitate the recovery of these powers of volition and of knowing focus of presence and awareness. In other words, you can get unstuck from inside your head Most folks, when they first "trip out" get a little unnerved due to the unfamiliarity of it, and due to the fact that they are often not in control of their faculties the way they feel they are when "in their heads." Too much awareness, even presence, can be a scary thing if it's "out of control."

Before some of you choose to argue about what's above, I recommend you get a good dictionary and attain a very full and applicable understanding of the key words: awareness, attention, position, location, etc.

Roger

 

[nexus100]

I'm not going to copypasta it in, but I made some relevant comments here:
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=2364&p=42591

Others made useful comments on the same subject in the thread too.

I have some new comments:

There has to be an interface between the meat body we are very familiar with and the spirit-thing that animates it. Hubbard called different "things" by the same name, "thetan", and it gets very hard to tie it all together if you think he was talking about the same "thing" every time he used the word. Plus he didn't necessarily get it all right, and by "right" I mean in accordance with what actually is. I'll assume valid the paradigm of the spirit-thing animating the meat body. And I'll call the spirit-thing a thing even though it supposedly has no mass etc.

So how does an intangible thing with no real physical presence have an effect on a VERY tangible meat body? The logical answer (!) is by using gradient scales, interlocking stages of subtle plasma energy, a bit like the top gear of a 10-speed bicycle works well but you can't vroom-vroom instantly in top gear straight from a standing start. But the very insubstantial spirit-thing can have, by inductance or harmonic resonance or whatever, an effect on a not-quite-so-insubstantial etheric plasma body. And by the same mechanism that etheric plasma body can have an effect on an adjacent and interpenetrating plasma layer that is slightly more substantial. Repeat this through several layers of "gearing", with the layer next to the physical being the coarsest, and lo and behold there is an interface in action.

I'm talking about the human aura, the human energy field, of course. I've posted here before how pretty much anyone can view their own, at least the coarsest level or two of it. This human aura seems to be what Hubbard was describing as the History of Man thumb-in-the-sliver thetan analogy, where the sliver is the body and the thumb is the thetan.

Paul

I think everything in this place is a harmonic of our basic, which is love/understanding/attention. Our contact with the physical universe reflects that lua. As we understand more, love more, have more attention, that connection with the physical disperses as well. And we tend to speed up.
So what is isn't physical so much as our reality of it. My take.

 

[Terl]

The one thing I wanted most in $cn was the ability to be a "thetan" without body and not have to be "in" my body if I didn't feel like it. I wanted to not feel like I was attached to the body. I've spent lots of time trying to seperate myself or go exterrior but it never works. I don't know why its so easy for some people. I get the concept yet for me it's like I can't feel a seperation. Once in a while it occurs, mostly unwilled, but not to a degree that I have certainity about it. The closest I've come to willed exterriorization is when listening to Alan Walter's lecture about spiritual "team mates", I don't know why but during it I felt very enormous like I took up the entire room. Aside from that, I don't know what my hold up is. I've read a lot of "techniques" and tried a lot of them and nothing works. I mostly stopped thinking about it by now.
I have wanted to start a thread here about this and asking people for advice but whenever I bring up this subject it seems I mostly get responces like, "Why do you care?" "You shouldn't care," or "Don't worry about it, it's not important." Well, yes, it is fucking important to me and I will be concerned with it.

 

[nexus100]

In actuality, in its optimum state, a spiritual Being is infinite. That is infinite in size and without any location or dimension.

That might be called its "Native" or Natural State.

But then change happened . . . we run into things we didn't want to experience for example, and we withdraw our presence. Or we got highly interested in something and very intensely focused our awareness and presence down into that location. Both these actions, for example, changed our natural state, and we became fixed and limited as to our presence and state of Being . . . now you are beginning to get down into the realm of where most humans operate.

We, as human existences, are the product of lots of withdrawal from our natural state of infiniteness of Being and presence. And obviously, use of the body mechanics for perception is a via we have come to need and/or rely on because, for various reasons we have turned off our full natural ability and power of direct perception.

In that Ascension Experience I wrote of a few weeks ago, you'll recall I was knowingly spanning the 1,200 miles between Brisbane and Melbourne and actually viewing the coastline as though from a satellite; and also able to focus on a particular person in Melbourne and perceive its future. (I have had a number of such experiences of spanning future time, even avoiding of preventing disaster or unwanted occurrances; and also experiences of spanning space to view other locations than "here" where my body is. Maybe these for AE write-ups later.)

These are natural attributes of you the Spiritual Being . . . . it is only a matter of knowingly directing and focusing your awareness and presence. You can assume any position within your infinite domain of spiritual existence/presence. It's simply a matter of how aware you are, and your level of volition (free choice). Note what I said there: You can, by choice, assume any position or location withing your infinite domain of spiritual existence/presence. If you are too stuck and/or too limited, then you will likely be in your head and wondering what it's all about. If you have recovered your volition and control of your awareness sufficiently, then you can be as and where you choose.

The processes are available that facilitate the recovery of these powers of volition and of knowing focus of presence and awareness. In other words, you can get unstuck from inside your head Most folks, when they first "trip out" get a little unnerved due to the unfamiliarity of it, and due to the fact that they are often not in control of their faculties the way they feel they are when "in their heads." Too much awareness, even presence, can be a scary thing if it's "out of control."

Before some of you choose to argue about what's above, I recommend you get a good dictionary and attain a very full and applicable understanding of the key words: awareness, attention, position, location, etc.

Roger

I agree, except on the inference one has or has not control or that one is "down where humans operate." I think we all know exactly what we are doing. We choose to be where we are. We are part of a much greater whole that is doing the same thing. One is always right no matter what one chooses to be. There is no requirement implied or infered to know or understand more. The only rule in this universe is to have a viewpoint. And that we fulfill so far as I can see.
It may be one's life can be easier with more understanding. It can be tough to understand in a body society. I'll subscribe to that. But I don't think anyone should take on understanding from an "ought to" position. It is one's choice, first, last and always.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Scientologists - and sometimes others who want to discuss Scn- occasionally discuss the concept of exteriorization. This means a being leaves his or her body. It's similar but not identical to the theory of astral travel where a person has a sort of cord attaching the spirit to the body, so that the spirit can find its way back to the body.

What I think the one real error in thinking that is likely to be found in many of those discussing exteriorization is that thetans (spirits, beings, souls) do not move in and out of bodies because thetans have no mass. They do not occupy space. They don't occupy bodies. They think they do, it sure feels like it, but they don't. A spirit does not occupy space. It can direct attention here and there, it can have its attention stuck somewhere or it can have its attention freed up somewhat or to a great deal or completely (everything in life being a matter of degree) but it does not occupy space. Thetans have no physical location but they can and do put their attention anywhere.

None of us are in our bodies. It just seems that way.

Hush, Fluff! Your giving a way esoteric secrets!!!!


Mark A. Baker

 

[nexus100]

The one thing I wanted most in $cn was the ability to be a "thetan" without body and not have to be "in" my body if I didn't feel like it. I wanted to not feel like I was attached to the body. I've spent lots of time trying to seperate myself or go exterrior but it never works. I don't know why its so easy for some people. I get the concept yet for me it's like I can't feel a seperation. Once in a while it occurs, mostly unwilled, but not to a degree that I have certainity about it. The closest I've come to willed exterriorization is when listening to Alan Walter's lecture about spiritual "team mates", I don't know why but during it I felt very enormous like I took up the entire room. Aside from that, I don't know what my hold up is. I've read a lot of "techniques" and tried a lot of them and nothing works. I mostly stopped thinking about it by now.
I have wanted to start a thread here about this and asking people for advice but whenever I bring up this subject it seems I mostly get responces like, "Why do you care?" "You shouldn't care," or "Don't worry about it, it's not important." Well, yes, it is fucking important to me and I will be concerned with it.

Spiritual growth IS understanding. That is the composition. Understanding means seeing viewpoints and making them one's own. It is like riding a bicycle. One understands, and moves forward. Therefore there is no gimmick, no trick to it. One simply moves from not understanding something toward and through understanding. The method one uses is the intention to understand. If I were in your spot I'd be curious to understand why I wanted to be exterior, not why I couldn't be. Because the next step is what one does not understand, not what one can or can't do.
This is not intended to tell you exactly how to proceed. I have absolutely no idea what you should do. But that is meant as example of the process. And why it can be frustrating. More is available on www.themodeloftheuniverse.com.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The one thing I wanted most in $cn was the ability to be a "thetan" without body and not have to be "in" my body if I didn't feel like it. I wanted to not feel like I was attached to the body. I've spent lots of time trying to seperate myself or go exterrior but it never works. I don't know why its so easy for some people. I get the concept yet for me it's like I can't feel a seperation. Once in a while it occurs, mostly unwilled, but not to a degree that I have certainity about it. The closest I've come to willed exterriorization is when listening to Alan Walter's lecture about spiritual "team mates", I don't know why but during it I felt very enormous like I took up the entire room. Aside from that, I don't know what my hold up is. I've read a lot of "techniques" and tried a lot of them and nothing works. I mostly stopped thinking about it by now.
I have wanted to start a thread here about this and asking people for advice but whenever I bring up this subject it seems I mostly get responces like, "Why do you care?" "You shouldn't care," or "Don't worry about it, it's not important." Well, yes, it is fucking important to me and I will be concerned with it.

A couple of points:

A. the "importance" of exteriorization/ineteriorization can be indicative of problems associated with it. A bit of a "too significant" type of thing. That is to some degree addressed by the "End of the Endless Int Rundown", and other similar.

B. Objectives can be remarkably "exteriorizing". No guarantees, as with any process, nonetheless Buddhist literature is replete with stories of "enlightenment" being attained as the result of a practitioner essentially having an "objective process" run on him. They are also fun to run and not especially difficult to learn.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Terl]

I already understand why I want to be exterior - to know for certain I'm not just a body. I mean, the only certainty I have that I am not a body is because I believe it is probably true and there are enough people who know it to be true that I respect. But that's it. And that doesn't beat my own certainty, at all. Even though it's a mission of mine to have my own 100% certainty it seems impossible for me to get it. Most people don't think about it and don't care. Those that do think about it and do care usually discover a truth for themselves. I have yet to no matter what avenue I travel down. Kind of discouraging...
Thank you for the link, i'll check it out.

 

[Alan]

Scientologists - and sometimes others who want to discuss Scn- occasionally discuss the concept of exteriorization. This means a being leaves his or her body. It's similar but not identical to the theory of astral travel where a person has a sort of cord attaching the spirit to the body, so that the spirit can find its way back to the body.

What I think the one real error in thinking that is likely to be found in many of those discussing exteriorization is that thetans (spirits, beings, souls) do not move in and out of bodies because thetans have no mass. They do not occupy space. They don't occupy bodies. They think they do, it sure feels like it, but they don't. A spirit does not occupy space. It can direct attention here and there, it can have its attention stuck somewhere or it can have its attention freed up somewhat or to a great deal or completely (everything in life being a matter of degree) but it does not occupy space. Thetans have no physical location but they can and do put their attention anywhere.

None of us are in our bodies. It just seems that way.

Well you sure got that lot confused fluffy!