Thetans don't exteriorize because...

[Terl]

B. Objectives can be remarkably "exteriorizing". No guarantees, as with any process, nonetheless Buddhist literature is replete with stories of "enlightenment" being attained as the result of a practitioner essentially having an "objective process" run on him. They are also fun to run and not especially difficult to learn.

Not sure how to do Objectives, unfortunately.

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

psssst...

Well you sure got that lot confused fluffy!

I think she snuck that in when she knew "uniquemand" was elsewhere!

EP

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Thetans don't exteriorize because... they most often think of "themselves" in physical terms.

I often illustrate a similar point by likening this to "tv head", especially as experienced by hard-core computer gamers. Most adults who have watched kids playing computer games have noticed the tendency they have to lose touch with their physical environment while "in" the game. They often take some time after stopping the game to become "present" again. More aware players can identify the state change for themselves.

I regard this is the same phenomenon as "interiorization", simply on a different "level". You gradiently become the "construct" and lose awareness of "actuality". Stack up enough "interiorizations" on multiple levels and identities and you can become a very confused entity.

"Exteriorization" is the reversal of the process. It can similarly be on a gradient basis.

Games are played from "within". Games are understood from "without".

The following is one of my favorite passages from the "Tao Te Ching". I think it illustrates this principle very well. This translation is by Lin Yu-Tang. It was my first and remains my favorite version of the text.


1. On the Absolute Tao

The Tao the can be told of
Is not the Absolute Tao;
The Names that can be given
Are not Absolute Names.

The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth;
The Named is the Mother of All Things.

Therefore:
Oftentimes, one strips oneself of passion
In order to see the Secret of Life;
Oftentimes, one regards life with passion,
In order to see its manifest forms.

These two (the Secret and its manifestations)
Are (in their nature) the same;
They are given different names
When they become manifest.

They may both be called the Cosmic Mystery:
Reaching from the Mystery into the Deeper Mystery
Is the Gate to the Secret of All Life.


Mark A. Baker

 

[nexus100]

I already understand why I want to be exterior - to know for certain I'm not just a body. I mean, the only certainty I have that I am not a body is because I believe it is probably true and there are enough people who know it to be true that I respect. But that's it. And that doesn't beat my own certainty, at all. Even though it's a mission of mine to have my own 100% certainty it seems impossible for me to get it. Most people don't think about it and don't care. Those that do think about it and do care usually discover a truth for themselves. I have yet to no matter what avenue I travel down. Kind of discouraging...
Thank you for the link, i'll check it out.

Okay. Then the question could be why you want to be certain, or why it is important to be certain, or whatever you don't know about yourself that you want to know. It is your question. But understanding comes out of not understanding. The next step is always "what don't I understand?" Then intend to understand, and see what happens, without deciding anything about the process. At some point the light bulb goes on. You can't force understanding from yourself any more than you can from anyone else. And the question is never "why can't I do this?" It is what don't I understand, or some variant. It can help to talk to someone while in process who knows what you are going through, FYI.

The Glass Bead Game by Herman Hesse is an interesting way to look at the phenomenon in novel form IMO.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Imagine looking at things from the viewpoint of a huge ball. You can look at anything from any point in the ball anytime you wish.
Then, imagine having only one viewpoint. Of all the quadrillion potential viewpoints on the ball you have one outlook. This is your choice to have one viewpoint. And a quadrillion other parts of the ball suddenly also have one viewpoint.

That is the story of veiwpoint in this universe. We are looking into the universe from one perspective instead of from the total point of view of God. Others have their perspectives but, as for you, that simply reflects what they are seeing (or have seen or believe they have seen). As one understands other viewpoints one's perspective grows. Reducing one's own viewpoint reduces perspective. Perspective also includes understanding and love.
The method, the engineering, behind this system is understandable. In fact it is so simple the process of understainding is really of seeing simplicity. One understands one viewpoint at a time, including one's own.

"We" are "here" only because we identify with what we see in various ways. When one understands anything one is gaining perspective. The method of understanding is what all the hubbub is about. But if you see the goal as knowing viewpoints it all starts to make more sense.

A similar analogy can also be used to model "timelines" in an "everything is NOW" cosmological model.

Simplistically put from a position within the globe imagine looking through the ball in a specific direction. This lays out a "ray of sight" which can be envisioned as a "future timeline". What will be "seen" or "experienced" lies in the direction of "sight". What has been "seen" or "experienced" lies in an "opposite" direction.

Couple in the ability of spirit to assume a position at different points of the globe, and not necessarily in a "continuous" fashion (i.e not necessarily moving smoothly from point to an "adjacent" point sequentially in order to arrive elsewhere) and you have a geometric model for envisioning multiple timeframes and viewpoints as being in some sense a non-linear "time track". That is to say, change "direction" of "viewing" and/or change position from which things are "viewed" and a differing "identities" & "timelines" are experienced.

One of the most poetic statements of this concept I've encountered is the Vedantic myth of "Indra's Net".


Mark A. Baker

 

[nexus100]

A similar analogy can also be used to model "timelines" in an "everything is NOW" cosmological model.

Simplistically put from a position within the globe imagine looking through the ball in a specific direction. This lays out a "ray of sight" which can be envisioned as a "future timeline". What will be "seen" or "experienced" lies in the direction of "sight". What has been "seen" or "experienced" lies in an "opposite" direction.

Couple in the ability of spirit to assume a position at different points of the globe, and not necessarily in a "continuous" fashion (i.e not necessarily moving smoothly from point to an "adjacent" point sequentially in order to arrive elsewhere) and you have a geometric model for envisioning multiple timeframes and viewpoints as being in some sense a non-linear "time track". That is to say, change "direction" of "viewing" and/or change position from which things are "viewed" and a differing "identities" & "timelines" are experienced.

One of the most poetic statements of this concept I've encountered is the Vedantic myth of "Indra's Net".


Mark A. Baker

Yep. Thank's I'll look up the reference.

 

[Roan]

The following is one of my favorite passages from the "Tao Te Ching". I think it illustrates this principle very well. This translation is by Lin Yu-Tang. It was my first and remains my favorite version of the text.


1. On the Absolute Tao

The Tao the can be told of
Is not the Absolute Tao;
The Names that can be given
Are not Absolute Names.

The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth;
The Named is the Mother of All Things.

Therefore:
Oftentimes, one strips oneself of passion
In order to see the Secret of Life;
Oftentimes, one regards life with passion,
In order to see its manifest forms.

These two (the Secret and its manifestations)
Are (in their nature) the same;
They are given different names
When they become manifest.

They may both be called the Cosmic Mystery:
Reaching from the Mystery into the Deeper Mystery
Is the Gate to the Secret of All Life.

1.

Tao called Tao is not Tao.

Names can name no lasting name.

Nameless: the origin of heaven and earth.
Naming: the mother of ten-thousand things.

Empty of desire, perceive mystery.
Filled with desire, perceive manifestations.

These have the same source, but different names.
Call them both deep -
Deep and again deep:

The gateway to all mystery.

Translated by Stephen Addis & Stanley Lombardo

I use other more "poetic" translations as well (Brian Brown Walker), but I like the above at times because it strives to be the most "faithful" to the original Chinese; it is terse, enigmatic and still beautiful.

(Not trying to say anything is "superior" to your favorite; just passing along a good translation I have found. )

.

 

[Terl]

Okay. Then the question could be why you want to be certain, or why it is important to be certain, or whatever you don't know about yourself that you want to know. It is your question. But understanding comes out of not understanding. The next step is always "what don't I understand?" Then intend to understand, and see what happens, without deciding anything about the process. At some point the light bulb goes on. You can't force understanding from yourself any more than you can from anyone else. And the question is never "why can't I do this?" It is what don't I understand, or some variant. It can help to talk to someone while in process who knows what you are going through, FYI.

The Glass Bead Game by Herman Hesse is an interesting way to look at the phenomenon in novel form IMO.

I get that and I agree...the thing is I feel like I do understand. I've spent a good portion of time researching this and understanding it. Seems nothing has come of it.

 

[RogerB]

Doing Objectives

Not sure how to do Objectives, unfortunately.

Terl,

Last time I looked there is a rather full set of the "Objectives Processes" on Alan's Knowledgism website. By test, they are the best of the objectives I have seen.

While the subject of this thread in one that some love to "intellectualize" about, it is actually something one can experience and come to knowing control of with the correct processing actions. Note that word action . . . my observation is that intellectualizing and getting into thinkingness and opinion games about it doesn't accomplish much. The correct processing action does.

All you need to do is read the R/D's find yourself a co-processor, and get on with it

Roger

 

[nozeno]

 

[xseaorguk]

going 'exterior'

this was also one of the main things that interested me when I got into $cn back in 1979.
Upon reading about it and hearing from other members on the subject I was sure that I had been doing this as a child, and remembered trying to explain to my mother what I had experienced. (I was about 6 - 10 yrs old)
It always happened to me in the process of going to sleep, but when I did happen I was very aware of it and sort of thought, yeah..heres that exciting feeling again, but it was not in my control to turn it on or off.
I always found it hard to explain, but somehow had to do with my feeling very big in fact quite huge, but then again also very small, and also had something to do with travelling very fast towards other objects.
I have read a bit about 'Astral Ascension' or whatever its called and that also reminded me of what I had experienced as a kid.
Does anybody relate to my experience?

I always thought OT's could go exterior at will, thught it was part of the deal they got, and the thing about past-lives too.

 

[uncle sam]

yes

this was also one of the main things that interested me when I got into $cn back in 1979.
Upon reading about it and hearing from other members on the subject I was sure that I had been doing this as a child, and remembered trying to explain to my mother what I had experienced. (I was about 6 - 10 yrs old)
It always happened to me in the process of going to sleep, but when I did happen I was very aware of it and sort of thought, yeah..heres that exciting feeling again, but it was not in my control to turn it on or off.
I always found it hard to explain, but somehow had to do with my feeling very big in fact quite huge, but then again also very small, and also had something to do with travelling very fast towards other objects.
I have read a bit about 'Astral Ascension' or whatever its called and that also reminded me of what I had experienced as a kid.
Does anybody relate to my experience?

I always thought OT's could go exterior at will, thught it was part of the deal they got, and the thing about past-lives too.

Yes- I can relate very well-it would happen to me-numerous times. Auditing would do it as well as by other means--I love it! I did the old OT7 and didn't like the OT levels but the grades and especially power Vand Va-blew me out for several months-then back to same old same old. Never stable or with other perceptions-but - it felt great!!!!

 

[GreyLensman]

From what I can understand, your average common or garden "human type" Thetan is in pretty bad shape. We typically need a body to see with and to move MEST with. We perceive from a very limited spatial viewpoint. We are stuck in the MEST universe. We are where we perceive from; our viewpoint. This viewpoint can be either inside or outside of the body. Being outside of the body it can be difficult to control the body, and a bit scary.

I'm not sure if it was a dream or a memory, but I do recall exteriorising whilst riding a motorcycle. Now that is not a good idea, trying to balance a body on a motorcycle from a hundred feet up. I didn't get to the natural end of that recall, but I can imagine it ending in a crash!

I did once have the (this lifetime) experience of relaxing in a chair and feeling as though I was falling out the bottom of my head. Of course this "out of control" feeling was very scary and I snapped back in HARD. Who knows, by the time reach OTXXXXXIV I may get the confidence to peak over the balcony again.

Thetans don't STAY exterior (that is, they relocate a viewpoint in a body) because they can't see themselves in a mirror.

With a stake in the game, a piece becomes necessary. Human experience doesn't include not being the piece, and considerations on fairness and "not taking advantage" cause the being to assimilate his presence with his body. Eventually that became "normal".

God help us, or Buddha, because Ron sure fucked it up.

 

[Human Again]

I agree Fluffy.

And if someone has only ever viewed the world from somewhere around their eyes, then suddenly releasing from such a fixed point and being aware through another location would need a way to be described and, "going extrerior" could be one of the ways they might say it.

We might BE everywhere and nowhere at the same time. We tend to "look" from (or through might be a better word) a location, be it a tight one or a broad one. I can imagine a ball. Holding onto the ball so that my body surrounds it, I am existing all around it but when I make a pinprick hole and look "into" the ball I see what is in there from one viewpoint. This is a rough analogy of how I believe I percieve the world.

When something within the ball makes a disturbance, I can feel that there is a disturbance in the ball.

One of our brain functions is to "locate" the body, to tell us where it is in relation to other things. It is usually fed from visual input. When someone loses their sight it is a major rehabilitation aspect, to get that function going again through other stimuli, sound, touch, even smell etc. Anyhow, the point being that where you "see from" is very tied in to being human and using the brain etc. As a species we A=A on where I see from is where I am. It is based on biological hardware. So it does not surprise me that "going exterior" is how the phenomenon of being aware from another location is tagged.

Wo knows other terms for this phenomenon? I'd love to hear them.

 

[the-ghostwhowalks]

"The conflicting reports of the status of "exteriorization" -the opinion of the CoS

I was surfing around the net and found this little gem : the state of being exterior is described as a "parlour trick " and that "it doesn't lead to happiness"

from "allexperts.com"
Scientology - how to be exterior

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expert: Laurie Hamilton - 8/9/2007

Question
QUESTION: Which books or lectures contain the information, "how to be exterior"? Can you give me some information on the above subject in your e-mail response to me? Thanks in advance. I appreciate your time and help. I sent this Question earlier but my e- mail address has since been changed. Please ignore my prior address,and send answer to the above address. It is nice to find help. I anxiously await your reply.

ANSWER: Hi, Raven:

Your answer:

I'm sorry, Raven,

We do not seek or practice exteriorization in and of itself as a stand-alone activity. There is no one technique which has this as a promised or desired result or endpoint.

It is a byproduct of certain states of spiritual awareness or freedom which migh be produced by any number of factors at any stage in a person's progress. It can also be a compulsive and unwanted state under certain circumstances.

Trying to exteriorize people as a sole activity, rather than seeking to gradiently and stably increase ability and awareness (and recognizing/dealing with exteriorization should it happen along the way) falls under the heading of what Ron used to refer to as "parlor tricks," and recommended against.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Laurie,I assure you I have little interest in "parlor tricks". I have received Dianetics auditing several times,and I have experienced a good bit of N.E.D. auditing in Clearwater. More than just being out side of my body, I am on that timeless quest for truth. Thetans,"I have heard", are happier and more productive,approximately one to three feet away from their body, so I of course am interested in learning more about the subject. I appologize for not giving you this information in our last communication. I have also heard that even though there is not a process that promises exteriorization, there are certain techniques,or processes that generally lead to this result. True? Is there perhaps something more you can tell me about this subject? If you are uncomfortable communicating with me on this subject, please refer me to source. I really appreciate you giving your time to help those of us still crawling in the dark, to see some light. Sincerely, Raven


Answer
The fact of a thetan doing better while exterior has more to do with the spiritual state of the thetan (which LEADS to being exterior) than with the fact of being exterior itself.

Ron did a fair amount of experimentation with exteriorizing people in the early days but according to what I heard him say in lectures on the subject, it was not stable and did not seem in and of itself to lead to any case gain, which is what earned it the label "parlor tricks."

In my 39 years in Scientology I have never done or witnessed or been taught anything whatever aimed purely at exteriorization. I realized I was exterior a number of times during processing and sometimes for days at a time after a session, but exterior was due to state of case - not vice-versa.

Being exterior became much more common from OT 1 on up, but again, as a reflection of state of case - not as an exercise or goal in itself. In the absence of strong contravening factors, I can pretty much exteriorize at will, now, but there seems little point. I operate effectively and may realize after a bit that I am operating exterior, but it's me making the decision to accomplish a certain thing, especially something which requires a good deal of mental or emotional energy or determination, disregard for opposition, or influence over a large area, and then realizing that in so doing I've gone exterior - not "If I just go exterior I can handle this." That's actually a via. The senior consideration would be "I'm handling this." perhaps later - "Oh, lookee here - that required operating exterior."

Does this throw any light on the subject? If going exterior in order to be happier and more productive were an aim of Scientology, then that very thing would be addressed formally as a part of a person's progress on the bridge. It is not.

Please, if this is at all confusing, ask further. -Laurie hamilton
===============================
WELL - My posts allready indicate how I feel abut this - this is pure BS !
I am happier than ever running exteriorization processes solo ! - I am having great life changing wins ! -the-ghostwhowalks
======================================
this is LRH says about "exterior" - one of many quotes:

"When a thetan believes too thoroughly he is a body, he is generally unhappy, afraid, doubts his own (and validates the body’s) existence and worries about his inabilities. When he is out of the sphere of influence of the body (a very small one) he becomes serene, confident and knowing.He can handle a body better, can act faster, can recall more and do more while exteriorized than he can while in a body." LRH -COHA

some more LRH:

"The state of Operating Thetan is higher than Theta Clear and means that the person does
not need a body to communicate or Work. It is accomplished with SOP 8-C."
LRH -COHA
=====================
Good grief - dont go doing exteriorizing any body - you might make an OT !
Has Mr Hamilton ever read this stuff ? -
TGWW
====================================

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Oh, yeah. Laurie Hamilton's a CofS member- prolly PR division or something- who answers questions on allexperts.com so all you get with her is party line type stuff...

I sort of get her meaning in a way-- some critics do get into the parlor trick type approach. Just recently someone posted (to Beliefnet Scn Debate) that John Travolta, being an OTVIII, should have been able to bring his son back to life. It's the same sort of thing. I see posts like that every now and again and they can be exasperating to Scn'ists, particularly church ones.

But if someone's sincerely wanting to discuss a concept, really discuss it, there's no point in slapping them down. But if you notice, anytime CofS members (who presumably are posting on behalf of the organization) answer questions, it's very circumscribed. I've seen it on answerbag.com, and on the old askme.com and of course on allexperts.com.

 

[JustanotherEX]

The one thing I wanted most in $cn was the ability to be a "thetan" without body and not have to be "in" my body if I didn't feel like it. I wanted to not feel like I was attached to the body. I've spent lots of time trying to seperate myself or go exterrior but it never works. I don't know why its so easy for some people. I get the concept yet for me it's like I can't feel a seperation. Once in a while it occurs, mostly unwilled, but not to a degree that I have certainity about it. The closest I've come to willed exterriorization is when listening to Alan Walter's lecture about spiritual "team mates", I don't know why but during it I felt very enormous like I took up the entire room. Aside from that, I don't know what my hold up is. I've read a lot of "techniques" and tried a lot of them and nothing works. I mostly stopped thinking about it by now.
I have wanted to start a thread here about this and asking people for advice but whenever I bring up this subject it seems I mostly get responces like, "Why do you care?" "You shouldn't care," or "Don't worry about it, it's not important." Well, yes, it is fucking important to me and I will be concerned with it.

Terl, you seem to have a lot of "desire" directed at your objective.

For me desire can act at a roadblock of sorts. Can you approach it without the burden of desire?

 

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Interesting viewpoint, Fluffy. I think I got what you meant. I think since just before I left the CofS I've been more "in" my body than ever before. It almost became a bad thing to go "exterior". I'm working on getting back to just sort of "babysitting" the body.

 

[the-ghostwhowalks]

Very intesting posts ! for terl , fluffy , just another ex - I'm out

Hi guys - I am no expert in any way - but I will say that going " ext" is a great remedy for things - loads of fun - the by-products are fascinating ....
there is no reason NOT to run or do such processes - If you have trouble -
There are plenty of well meaning folk around who can assist !
terl - please read my "ghost stories " - I will pm you ! - I would LOVE to read the ghost stories of other people - What a hoot that would be !

 

[cantsay]

The only time Ive been properly exterior was a random thing - I was sitting on a friends loungeroom floor having a chat after dropping some people home from work at the org. I got up to leave and nearly tripped over the coffee table. I thought it was a little strange, I could have sworn it was another foot to the left.... as I walked to my car (feeling kinda strange, like my vision was all stretched) I walked into the wheelie bin. I realised that my body was actually a foot or two down and to the left of me. I drove home grinning like an idiot, and the next morning when I woke up I was back in my head.

It was an awesome feeling. Although tripping over everything was really embaressing.