Those we leave behind

[AiryFairy]

I am so glad to have found this message board.
3 days later, I am still reading. My story will come in time as I discovered I DO need to tell it, or some of it. Spans 35+ years.
Thankyou for sharing the stories, the courage, the laughs I have read so far.

I would like to hear stories of how people deal with family members still 'in'?
For me it has meant years of pretence in order to maintain contact with my daughter, and for some reason lately, I just don't want to do that anymore. The pretence I mean.

If I ever told her what I really think it would be sure to come up in some Sec check and also cause great drama and defence on her part . We have a mutual 'agree to disagree' at the moment as I am more into metaphysics but she has no idea of what I really think. Yet using Scientologese when I see her, ignoring the rabid discrimination and eliteism and the patronising attitudes that are just so much of normal Scn life is just not something I want to do anymore. I have tried the last 5 years particularly to protect her from what I know is inevitable. She's late thirties, so not a child.

Any input would be great.

 

[AiryFairy]

Just a little more info.
I am 2nd generation, she is 3rd, my grandchild is 4th. I obviously need to keep details miniumum right now.

My parents have been out a long time, but like me, did it without being declared, just managed to fade away from range of interest due to no money and so on. Though that took many years.

So my daughter has accepted the idea that none of us are active, though of course we could be salvaged at some point when we have coughed up enough O/Ws and stopped being so PTS that we are poor. She does not know my parents feel the same way I do and they don't want to rock the boat. That's OK, they are elderly and have had enough and their own war stories and pain to not want to go there with any kind of confrontation or disconnection at this stage of their lives.

Lately she has become almost desperately rigid in her alleigance, I haven't kept up with current affairs in the Scio world, but something is going on. She is 'rich public' now rather than staff but it doesn't seem to lessen the pressure.

 

[Alanzo]

Just a little more info.
I am 2nd generation, she is 3rd, my grandchild is 4th. I obviously need to keep details miniumum right now.

My parents have been out a long time, but like me, did it without being declared, just managed to fade away from range of interest due to no money and so on. Though that took many years.

So my daughter has accepted the idea that none of us are active, though of course we could be salvaged at some point when we have coughed up enough O/Ws and stopped being so PTS that we are poor. She does not know my parents feel the same way I do and they don't want to rock the boat. That's OK, they are elderly and have had enough and their own war stories and pain to not want to go there with any kind of confrontation or disconnection at this stage of their lives.

Lately she has become almost desperately rigid in her alleigance, I haven't kept up with current affairs in the Scio world, but something is going on. She is 'rich public' now rather than staff but it doesn't seem to lessen the pressure.

Welcome, AiryFairy!!!

It is rather interesting how clueless you are about the true thoughts of others to Scientology when you are still in. When I got out, and people were sure I was out, they began telling me what they really thought about Scientology all along.

Man! Scientologists have no idea!!

Glad you are here. Would love to hear your story.

 

[AiryFairy]

Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, there is very blinkered thinking because you are not allowed to think.

I had a conversation with my daughter the other day and she said she found something I said introverting (I said I had a feeling all was not right with her). I said my definition of introverting is looking inward and I can't remember why that is a bad thing, as that's how we can change our viewpoints, as long as it doesn't become a way of life. Her reply was the definition was looking inward "too closely" and she started to list after my observation. Aha, one must NOT look inward to see if you are feeling OK and God forbid do it without holding the cans! How sad.

 

[Alanzo]

Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, there is very blinkered thinking because you are not allowed to think.

I had a conversation with my daughter the other day and she said she found something I said introverting (I said I had a feeling all was not right with her). I said my definition of introverting is looking inward and I can't remember why that is a bad thing, as that's how we can change our viewpoints, as long as it doesn't become a way of life. Her reply was the definition was looking inward "too closely" and she started to list after my observation. Aha, one must NOT look inward to see if you are feeling OK and God forbid do it without holding the cans! How sad.

That is sad. I understand what a tight rope you are having to walk AF, to keep your family intact.

Maybe we all can change that to a situation where your family is safe if you get involved with Scientology.

 

[Terril park]

Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, there is very blinkered thinking because you are not allowed to think.

I had a conversation with my daughter the other day and she said she found something I said introverting (I said I had a feeling all was not right with her). I said my definition of introverting is looking inward and I can't remember why that is a bad thing, as that's how we can change our viewpoints, as long as it doesn't become a way of life. Her reply was the definition was looking inward "too closely" and she started to list after my observation. Aha, one must NOT look inward to see if you are feeling OK and God forbid do it without holding the cans! How sad.

Looks like she is severely indoctrinated from that statement. And generally quite effect.

The quote she gives is not without truth. It is though inadequate. Or needs more defs.

" Interested in own case and willing to talk to the auditor" is also a kind of introversion.

The great philosophers by definition MUST have looked inward. That includes LRH.

That she should list[ I presume you mean self list] after a parents normal enquiry into a daughters happiness is being SEVERELY effect.

It seems you are in good comm. Nor is she criticizing you very much.

Looks like she has had a surfeit of wrong indications and wrong items,
and is very much effect of them.
Plus the indoctrination. She looks very vulnerable.

Your comment (I said I had a feeling all was not right with her) is more than she can handle. Maybe on the edge of a psychotic break. Your statement could come under eval. [ note that mother daughter comm can
need not have that connotation]. Asking her if all is right with her may be a better approach.

Hopefully those more tech trained than me can add commentary.

Can you say her training and processing levels?

I could comment on ways to get her to leave COS. But I don't think she could handle any attempts right now. Maybe I'm wrong.

You mustn't say anything against tech or LRH. Her only way out would seem via the Freezone. The best tech guys are there.

Looks like kid gloves are needed for now. Looks like you must have done well on that also.

 

[AiryFairy]

Thanks Alanzo and Terril.

Yes you are right. And yes my query could be classed as evaluative or causing introspection, by some definitions. I make no apologies anymore, I am so over watching my words, this is what I have really been worn out by. Having to watch every statement, tip toe through seemingly normal conversations, keep my mouth shut at the things I hear. Not be me. Maybe ‘the debil made me do it’ and push too hard to get her thinking. She is OT4 or 5 I think, I lost interest in knowing, not tech trained much, staff experience.

I have reached crisis point and I admit to being selfish. My heart breaks to read here of families torn apart and often never reconciled, and the ones I know of myself, that’s why I worked so hard to maintain contact. Yet in a lot of ways I am pretending to be IN to her, in order to maintain the connection. I can’t do it anymore, for my own sanity, so I have to find a way to make the truth known and yet still be available to pick up the pieces. I realise writing this it is MY crisis, not hers. Duh!

 

[Div6]

Thanks Alanzo and Terril.

Yes you are right. And yes my query could be classed as evaluative or causing introspection, by some definitions. I make no apologies anymore, I am so over watching my words, this is what I have really been worn out by. Having to watch every statement, tip toe through seemingly normal conversations, keep my mouth shut at the things I hear. Not be me. Maybe ‘the debil made me do it’ and push too hard to get her thinking. She is OT4 or 5 I think, I lost interest in knowing, not tech trained much, staff experience.

I have reached crisis point and I admit to being selfish. My heart breaks to read here of families torn apart and often never reconciled, and the ones I know of myself, that’s why I worked so hard to maintain contact. Yet in a lot of ways I am pretending to be IN to her, in order to maintain the connection. I can’t do it anymore, for my own sanity, so I have to find a way to make the truth known and yet still be available to pick up the pieces. I realise writing this it is MY crisis, not hers. Duh!

I hear ya. I left a lot of people I love "behind" when I left....but it had to be done. I spent an hour with an org terminal recentlt...gave her all my wins applying Scn, and then told her that what she and the org and DM are doing is NOT Scn, but some weird squirrel thing and the stats show it. I gave specific examples of how the tech had been altered, for the worse. I ended with saying that until things were run in a not suppressive manner, I was disconnecting.

She promised me an SP declare.

I'm still waiting.

 

[AiryFairy]

I don't know I avoided a declare.
Oh well, I'll see what happens. I'm going to speak out at the appropriate time, if there ever is such a thing. I don't think an email out of the blue saying "Ahem, I have read all the norti net entheta (and OT levels) and I agree and I don't want to talk Scientologese any more, and I have actually been totally anti for the last 5 years despite my not discussing it because I am concerned for you" is going to go down very well. A phone call would be worse. Xmas plans are going to be interesting.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

What I would say if it were me...

I would suggest that if she asks you about involvement, that you just say "Oh, gosh, I'm getting older, I'm winding down my cycles. I couldn't possibly give the church the attention it deserves right now. But I sure do find the tech and policy helpful in my life while I deal with these cycles. At this point, though, I need to take care of my responsibilities. It's great to know where I can turn if I need to."

--said with an air of polite finality.

 

[AiryFairy]

Thanks Fluffy but it's not the truth. And the whole point is about having the freedom to be able to talk the truth, be it mine or someone else's.
It's OK, the situation is under control now, I have said my piece and we are still talking. Though maybe not the next time a sec check rolls around.

 

[Terril park]

Thanks Fluffy but it's not the truth. And the whole point is about having the freedom to be able to talk the truth, be it mine or someone else's.
It's OK, the situation is under control now, I have said my piece and we are still talking. Though maybe not the next time a sec check rolls around.

So far so good.

Seems like your daugter wishes to remain a scientologist, and you are anti.
This would probably walk forward and become a disconnection issue. And that
can descend into surreal situations with no terminal for your daughter to recieve help from.

For example, I give a case I know of. A woman left her husband
and formed a new relationship. She was arbirtarily declared. The new partner was told to disconnect or face SP declare for being connected to an SP. He
didn't. The woman got her SP declare overturned. Meanwhile the original husband and father of their child and the new partner and ex wife all got on quite well. On wanting a new service he was told he could only communicate to his child via a third party. There is a famous PL I'll rename to cater for such matters. " Group Insanity".

You may find it best to try and persuade your daughter to do scientology in the Freezone. There would be no disconnection issue. No heavy regging, in fact probably none at all, and she would have access to the best tech terminals.

Apart from the URLs in my sig line you could show her Pierre Ethiers website, former top flag auditor,

http://www.upperbridge.org/

And perhaps a selection of Blownforgood and Little Bear Victors post re DM and the int base.

Then their is the book burning........Of books previously announced by DM as fully corrected in the nineties. Pasadena Org or Mission actually had a book burning party instead of pulping them. They probably thought it was good PR

Yes, Group Insanity.

 

[olska]

... the whole point is about having the freedom to be able to talk the truth, be it mine or someone else's.
It's OK, the situation is under control now, I have said my piece and we are still talking. Though maybe not the next time a sec check rolls around.

Good for you for standing up for the truth and being your own person. In the "wog" world, that's called "tough love."

In my opinion and observation, many people who are "hooked" on scientology exhibit much of the same manipulative and irresponsible behaviors as do drug addicts, and when given "ultimatums" (choose me or the drugs!) addicts often choose the drugs.

The main difference between those "hooked" on scientology (or other cult doctrine) and drug addicts, is that while most addicts recognize that, at least on some level, their behavior is personally and socially destructive (they continue because they are addicted), the cultees rationalize and justify their behavior as being part of a "noble cause."

This makes cultees harder to reach. The types of "tough love" and "interventions" that sometimes work for alcoholics or addicts may only rarely be effective in getting people out of cults.

I hope she chooses to continue the relationship with you.

Regardless of her choice, fwiw I commend you for standing up for yourself in the face of that pressure.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Yes, agreed.

 

[AiryFairy]

So far so good.

Seems like your daugter wishes to remain a scientologist, and you are anti.
This would probably walk forward and become a disconnection issue. And that
can descend into surreal situations with no terminal for your daughter to recieve help from.

Yes at this point she is still in the mindset and I have no illusions about anything changing in the forseeable future. She always knows she has support here, there is also no problem with that.

 

[AiryFairy]

I hope she chooses to continue the relationship with you.

Regardless of her choice, fwiw I commend you for standing up for yourself in the face of that pressure.

Thankyou, I really appreciate the support. No ultimatums have ever been given or will be and I have said I am happy for her to continue to find her own path, I am just finally being clear cut about the boundaries, whereas I wasn't before. Something will happen, some day, it's inevitable. And although I know it takes so long to redefine reality, she has a head start in having her family to help. If and when. I am prepared for disconnection as a possibility, and have indicated that it isn't my origination.
It's not easy but I am dealing with my own readjustments even after decades, and this was a necessary and difficult step.

 

[Two Cents]

Dear AiryFairy,

Hey there. I do get what you're saying. My child is on post and my husband and I recently divorced as he wants to do the bridge in the C of S and won't consider any alternatives. I ended any involvement myself in 2011, and will not dissolve my friendships or involvements with others relative to their standing with the C of S.
I just cannot agree to have my relationships with others affected by that sort of thing anymore.

But, it's not an easy road, really, for any of us, is it? I still get together with my child and put my heart and love first, anything else comes after that. Nothing else matters after that, to me, actually. It's as if you have a loved one or family member of any conviction that you do not share. The only way I know to handle it is to put love for the person in the first position of importance and to heck with the rest of it.

Best wishes to you and your family.

Love,



Two Cents

 

[safeweb310]

One final note. I sympathize with what is going on with your daughter. She doesn't sound very happy. I am NOT saying what she is doing is right or wrong. It is her life. I want to make the point that I also have a difficult relationship with someone in my family and they don't know anything about Scientology or introversion or any of the other points. this person is just very difficult to talk to. Similar to your daughter, there are many things this person will not discuss and she takes every comment literally and usually in the wrong way. With this type of person you have to be very creative in finding things to talk about that will not make them upset or god forbid introverted. once you can find the safe areas of communication, you can build on those and find other things that are also safe that you can talk about. This will help you stay away from the subject of Scientology as well as have stress-free conversations with your daughter.

I believe whether your daughter is in or out of SCN, there might be difficulty so I would use whatever spirital tools you are using to find the happiest side of your daughter and work on bringing that to the surface.

 

[WildKat]

You guys do realize that AiryFairy started this thread SEVEN years ago?? Haven't seen AiryFairy on-line in quite some time.
(I sometimes wonder how an ancient thread gets going again with no activity for 7 years?)

 

[AnonyMary]

Well, it's bound to be helpful to someone somewhere, so that makes it relevant.

I especially like the newest responses, which are bound to be helpful to those with family still in, who are doing everything possible to stay connected. Once disconnection happens, it like too late for some to have the opportunity to talk with ones children or parents. I am all for doing what is best to keep communications open and connected. Disconnection destroys families.

Best wishes to those lurking, those struggling to keep friends and family despite scientology