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Three different things - but only one label

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
What's the 'core' of a 'Sack-O-Shit'?

Scientology is monolithic; all or nothing by design and definition by the Man best suited to designing and defining it - Ron Hissef

The arguments about 'core' that I'm seeing sound like people arguing about the 'core' value of the various colorfal pictures, claims, contents labels amd supposed descriptions on a 50 lb. plastic bag of fertilizer.

Except that fertilizer serves an actual purpose.

Zinj
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
What's the 'core' of a 'Sack-O-Shit'?

Scientology is monolithic; all or nothing by design and definition by the Man best suited to designing and defining it - Ron Hissef

The arguments about 'core' that I'm seeing sound like people arguing about the 'core' value of the various colorfal pictures, claims, contents labels amd supposed descriptions on a 50 lb. plastic bag of fertilizer.

Except that fertilizer serves an actual purpose.

Zinj

Oh come on Zinj!

You don’t really believe that do you?

Numerous books, thousands of lectures, millions of words of theory, dozens of drills, hundreds of natural laws defined (and let’s not forget the Axioms :coolwink:) and all the other stuff.

Surely it is obvious that there is something worthwhile there?

The CoS may be a fantasy built with a pack of cards, but surely some of them are worth playing with?

Even I believe that.

Axiom142
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
The 'ingredients' of Scientology, at least some of them, may and probably do have some intrinsic value.

But, they're not Scientology; any more than a hamburger is a cow.

Zinj
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Scn is the body of methods and ideas written by Hubbard, the good,the bad and the in between. However, one can tailor the practice of Scn to one's life, disregarding/deleting hostile and problematic policies such as the freeloader debt one, treatment of critics, and other things- and still be a Scn'ist.
Some people say that one cannot do so, but those people are ignorant of religious history where people have been doing things like that for millennia.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Scn is the body of methods and ideas written by Hubbard, the good,the bad and the in between. However, one can tailor the practice of Scn to one's life, disregarding/deleting hostile and problematic policies such as the freeloader debt one, treatment of critics, and other things- and still be a Scn'ist.
Some people say that one cannot do so, but those people are ignorant of religious history where people have been doing things like that for millennia.

There's a very palpable (unpleasant as the imagery is) difference between 'Scientology' and most of the 'religious movements' you seem to be attempting to equivocate to. Far more than most, Scientology *is* Ron, and, it *is* Ron's baby and Ron minced no words on how totally Scientology must be accepted, even going so far as to invent crimes and slurs for people guilty of nothing more than the 'picking and choosing' you're trying to sell as 'Scientology.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether you call yourself a Scn'ist, a nazi, a 4-star general or Queen Elizabeth. But, on a public forum where *actual* discussion of real-existing-Scientology is being discussed, I think it's of value to specify our terms, and; Does Scientology Demand and Promote Deplorable and Reprehensible Violations of Human Rights and Sanity?

Why, yes. Yes it does.

Zinj
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
The 'ingredients' of Scientology, at least some of them, may and probably do have some intrinsic value.

But, they're not Scientology; any more than a hamburger is a cow.

Zinj

I’m a very fussy eater. My mum sometimes bakes a fruit cake, with is very nice. Unfortunately, it contains glace cherries and dates, which I don’t like. But rather than throw away the whole slice of cake that I get in my lunchbox, I pick out the cherries and dates, feed them to the birds (who do like them) and eat the rest.

This still leaves around 70% of the cake, which isn’t exactly as per the original recipe, but still tastes pretty good to me. :)

Axiom142
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
comment to fluffy

Scn is the body of methods and ideas written by Hubbard, the good,the bad and the in between. However, one can tailor the practice of Scn to one's life, disregarding/deleting hostile and problematic policies such as the freeloader debt one, treatment of critics, and other things- and still be a Scn'ist.
Well, that is your opinion. If you read Keeping Scientology Working, I think Hubbard implies you would not be a scientologist (TM) if you excluded all the human rights violating policies that he craved so much.
Some people say that one cannot do so, but those people are ignorant of religious history where people have been doing things like that for millennia.

Except that scientology is NOT a religion. Hubbard stated so in writing back in the mid 1950's. That is a fact. Get used to it. "If it isn't written, it isn't true." LRH
 
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Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scientology what is it?

1) The publicised HCOB's, HCOPL's and tapes...
or
2) The unpublicised LRH advices/orders, Flag orders, SO Directives which are senior to that in #1...
or
3) Auditing which through 'promise' could take you to states of being where no man has been before...

or, all of the above?

...

Carmel,

How about adding:

4) The training which promises to give people the tools to handle life.
5) The people who call themselves Scientologists.

I believe that 4) does have value and can benefit most people if properly learnt and applied.

And as for 5), some of these people are wonderful, dedicated, interesting, talented but most of all caring human beings. Some of them are thoughtless robots who have forgotten their humanity and others are just plain evil and twisted.

The last one is the most important. Any subject or organisation can be corrupted by those who have bad intentions towards others, but only with the agreement of the majority.

Axiom142
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Well, that is your opinion. If you read Keeping Scientology Working, I think Hubbard implies you would not be a scientologist (TM) if you excluded all the human rights violating policies that he craved so much.


Except that scientology is NOT a religion. Hubbard stated so in writing back in the mid 1950's. That is a fact. Get used to it. "If it isn't written, it isn't true." LRH

Excuse me:-

" We of the Church believe:

That all men of whatever race, color, or creed were created with equal rights;

That all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance;

That all men have inalienable rights to their own lives;

That all men have inalienable rights to their sanity;

That all men have inalienable rights to their own defense;

That all men have inalienable rights to conceive, choose, assist or support their own organizations, churches and governments;

That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;

That all men have inalienable rights to the creation of their own kind;

That the souls of men have the rights of men;

That the study of the mind and the healing of mentally caused ills should not be alienated from religion or condoned in non-religious fields;

And that no agency less than God has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly.

And we of the Church believe:

That man is basically good;

That he is seeking to survive;

That his survival depends upon himself and upon his fellows and his attainment of brotherhood with the universe.

And we of the Church believe that the laws of God forbid man:

To destroy his own kind;

To destroy the sanity of another;

To destroy or enslave another's soul;

To destroy or reduce the survival of one's companions or one's group.

And we of the Church believe that the spirit can be saved and that the spirit alone may save or heal the body. "
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well, that is your opinion. If you read Keeping Scientology Working, I think Hubbard implies you would not be a scientologist (TM) if you excluded all the human rights violating policies that he craved so much.


Except that scientology is NOT a religion. Hubbard stated so in writing back in the mid 1950's. That is a fact. Get used to it. "If it isn't written, it isn't true." LRH


I don't care if you think it's a religion or not. The lessons of history are the same.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to Terril Park

Excuse me:
"In one letter dated April 10, 1953, he says calling Scientology a religion solves "a problem of practical business," and status as a religion achieves something "more equitable...with what we've got to sell." In a 1962 official policy letter, he said "Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization basis throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors."[83]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
Excuse me:
The Creation of Human Ability, L. Ron Hubbard, 1953.
"Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a
psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when
properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual."


Excuse me:-
" We of the Church believe:
That all men of whatever race, color, or creed were created with equal rights;
That all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance;
That all men have inalienable rights to their own lives;
That all men have inalienable rights to their sanity;
That all men have inalienable rights to their own defense;
That all men have inalienable rights to conceive, choose, assist or support their own organizations, churches and governments;
That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;
That all men have inalienable rights to the creation of their own kind;
That the souls of men have the rights of men;
That the study of the mind and the healing of mentally caused ills should not be alienated from religion or condoned in non-religious fields;
And that no agency less than God has the power to suspend or set aside these rights, overtly or covertly.
And we of the Church believe:
That man is basically good;
That he is seeking to survive;
That his survival depends upon himself and upon his fellows and his attainment of brotherhood with the universe.
And we of the Church believe that the laws of God forbid man:
To destroy his own kind;
To destroy the sanity of another;
To destroy or enslave another's soul;
To destroy or reduce the survival of one's companions or one's group.
And we of the Church believe that the spirit can be saved and that the spirit alone may save or heal the body. "
Except that scientology is NOT a religion and has violated your quoted points many times since the 1950's. Excuse me.
 

Veda

Sponsor
If I want a 'Creed', there are far better ones than that which was thrown together by L. Ron Hubbard in 1954, when preparing to utilize his "religion angle."

The 'Creed' was and is PR. Maybe some Scientologists can be extricated from Scientology by being shown the 'Creed', and provided with examples of how it's not been followed by the "Church." But the success rate for that action is not high, as even naive public Scientologists usually realize that the 'Creed' is subordinate to the rest of Scientology.

About the 'Creed':

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=128787&postcount=73
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Excuse me:
"In one letter dated April 10, 1953, he says calling Scientology a religion solves "a problem of practical business," and status as a religion achieves something "more equitable...with what we've got to sell." In a 1962 official policy letter, he said "Scientology 1970 is being planned on a religious organization basis throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors."[83]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
Excuse me:
The Creation of Human Ability, L. Ron Hubbard, 1953.
"Scientology has opened the gates to a better World. It is not a
psycho-therapy nor a religion. It is a body of knowledge which, when
properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual."



Except that scientology is NOT a religion and has violated your quoted points many times since the 1950's. Excuse me.

I trust you have spent 7 years obtaining recognition of psyhological
training before delivering Idenics.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
And how many people have been sucked in, and held in, by the hope that the Creed was actually true within Scio? Huh!


We're both against the cult as is Terril. I'm sure that's gotta be good enough. As to the creed, well, people are free to have it part of their lives or not part of their lives with or without membership in any cult or offshoot or on their own. It's their choice and should not represent a problem to anyone else.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
If I want a 'Creed', there are far better ones than that which was thrown together by L. Ron Hubbard in 1954, when preparing to utilize his "religion angle."

The 'Creed' was and is PR. Maybe some Scientologists can be extricated from Scientology by being shown the 'Creed', and provided with examples of how it's not been followed by the "Church." But the success rate for that action is not high, as even naive public Scientologists usually realize that the 'Creed' is subordinate to the rest of Scientology.

About the 'Creed':

http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=128787&postcount=73


I wasn't talking about the Creed of A Scn'ist though Terril was. I was talking about having a creed, professing one. When I personally say "creed" I generally am referring to professing a creed, an ology.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
The more I read the more I think Scientology is Hubbard's banquet for humanity.

Nutritious can be many of the courses that were brought by the sous-chefs but Ron arranged the servings and sprinkled in his own poison.

Main references are Veda's posting #59 on the Sole Source Myth thread, and Alan's posting linked therein.
 
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Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to Terril Park

I trust you have spent 7 years obtaining recognition of psyhological training before delivering Idenics.

I do not deliver Idenics, nor have I spent 7 years in psychological training.
I have presented facts that demonstrate scientology is NOT a religion, but rather a business enterprise. Scientology auditing is in fact, a form of unregulated psychological treatment.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
There's a very palpable (unpleasant as the imagery is) difference between 'Scientology' and most of the 'religious movements' you seem to be attempting to equivocate to. Far more than most, Scientology *is* Ron, and, it *is* Ron's baby and Ron minced no words on how totally Scientology must be accepted, even going so far as to invent crimes and slurs for people guilty of nothing more than the 'picking and choosing' you're trying to sell as 'Scientology.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether you call yourself a Scn'ist, a nazi, a 4-star general or Queen Elizabeth. But, on a public forum where *actual* discussion of real-existing-Scientology is being discussed, I think it's of value to specify our terms, and; Does Scientology Demand and Promote Deplorable and Reprehensible Violations of Human Rights and Sanity?

Why, yes. Yes it does.

Zinj

I'm not trying to equivocate nor am I trying to compare (not the same things). I'm talking about things people do ABOUT their particular ology or ism.
 
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