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Three different things - but only one label

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I do not deliver Idenics, nor have I spent 7 years in psychological training.
I have presented facts that demonstrate scientology is NOT a religion, but rather a business enterprise. Scientology auditing is in fact, a form of unregulated psychological treatment.


It is what people make of it. For DM, it's a business. For people who feel it's their religion and inculcate that aspect and theory into their lives, then it's a religion. For others, CofS is a sweatshop. Scn itself is the body of ideas and methods and, of course, not all Scn'ists practicing Scn do so within the confines of CofS. And for them, it varies from person to person.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
It is what people make of it. For DM, it's a business. For people who feel it's their religion and inculcate that aspect and theory into their lives, then it's a religion. For others, CofS is a sweatshop. Scn itself is the body of ideas and methods and, of course, not all Scn'ists practicing Scn do so within the confines of CofS. And for them, it varies from person to person.
That's quite a truth, Fluffy.

Like most things in life, to the person looking at something, it's exactly what they think it is... until they decide it's something else.

Sometimes, people think that a thing is what they're told it is and omit the action of actually looking for themselves.

Scientology as a religion is a mental concept not an actuality.
It's not a mental concept that I hold to be true but that doesn't mean it isn't true for others.
Sometimes, people think that a thing is what they're told it is.

This is my answer Carmel's original question.
Scientology is what you think it is.

Some think it's a cohesive body of knowledge and technology about the mind and spirit, created or put together by L Ron Hubbard in an effort to free Beings from entrapment, to the benefit of all Mankind.

I, myself, used to believe this completely. I no longer do.

Scientology is what you think it is.

Cheers, Panda.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
comment to Terril Park

I trust you have spent 7 years obtaining recognition of psyhological training before delivering Idenics.

Your statement makes me wonder if you know that scientology is an unlicensed practice of clinical psychology, but publicly stating that would cut across your agenda. Scientology diagnoses, classifies, and prescribes a course of therapy for mental conditions --- just like clinical psychology. Idenics does none of those things.
 
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Terril park

Sponsor
Your statement makes me wonder if you know that scientology is an unlicensed practice of clinical psychology, but publicly stating that would cut across your agenda. Scientology diagnoses, classifies, and prescribes a course of therapy for mental conditions --- just like clinical psychology. Idenics does none of those things.

Hmmm. Scientology states its to make the able more able.

It is beyond doubt that scientology deals with the immortal spirit of man.
Thus its claim to be a religion is irrefutable.

Here is part of my agenda.

I suggest you spend more time promoting Idenics than bashing me personally. I don't bash Idenics.
 

Human Again

Silver Meritorious Patron
What IS scientology?

If that is true, then what an ingenious and grand trap it is!
Get into scientology and all your lies will come true!

Also...

Scientology is a brand - It's first asset is the tademark - Scientlogy(tm) and every time someone uses it in a positive sense you increase it's commercial value. (might be worth thinking about, Fluffy - no offense or poking intended)

Scientology is a Business.
It is incorporated at every level.

It has Assets - Intellectual poperty - books, course curriculums, talk-therapy procedures. It has buildings and Cash.

It has tax strategies - capital write offs, religious status, bad debt write offs etc. Rather like the Catholic church which used to charge exhorbitant amounts for essentials that only they were allowed to do , like burials, christenings, prayers said by the priests, blessing new buildings etc. Did you know, for example, that the church owns 80% of all real estate in Germany? Imagine if Scn owned 80% of the real estate in your home town? Scary.

It has employees who are given tasks for which they are responsible in exchange for a living. ( I remember at one time in one org I had to sign a pay sheet for a reasonable wage and it was explained that they had to show they were payng us. When I said, "well where is the money?" they said, we're using it to pay your room and board. LOL) It has heirachies of staff which are used, abused and as solid as rocks. In scn this even encompasses customers ( FMS, OT committees etc)

As in any business, the payroll is kept as low as possible to increase profit.

It has staff retention strategies - loyalty programs, indctrination processes, training programs.

It has owners - invisable to the employees, behind all the corporate structures there are human beings who control the assets and are beneficiaries of the for-profit corporations. Scientology's owner(s) consider themselves a different species than the employees who are deliberately kept in the dark- this is not unusual. Staff are often considered expendable.

It has a market - People who wish to improve their ability to live life and to gain certainty that there is an afterlife they can be in control of.

It has promotional strategies - advertising in the guide of PR, books as the ambassadores of the serice. Wallet share strategies to find ways to gain more and more of the customer base's disosable icome ( and even their nondisposable income). It has well trained sales people who have rapport strategies ( arc & the tone scale) carrots ( level EPs) and sticks ( SP declares, witolding of services family disconnection). Like many businesses, in order to help the sales people sell, the sales people have access to try the products and services so they can rave about how good they are and they can be attractive to the prospective customer. ("Ooh, I want to see that OT V Reg, he's really powerful (high status/sexy)")


It has client retention strategies - customer loyalty programs, "doom" campaigns to convince customers their services are not just good but essential to life. Their biggest retention strategy is SILENCE. By culturally imposing silence about the quality of service and the quality of value for money they limit refunds and ensure discontent does not spread through the customer base. Like any business it uses internal PR strategies to retain customes - success stories, magazines, etc.

Every product or service is also a PR tool. Every course hs PR in it - The Code of a Scientologist, Auditor's code, Axioms ( who doesn't like being told they are powerful?), KSW.

Scientology has "Loss Leaders" - small, low cost programs that engage the custome and allow the business to build trust. Traditionally these make no profir for the business but bring in a flow of customers, qualifying out those who "Wont pay" so time isn't wasted inding that out.

Scientology uses "strategic alliances". In he scientology world there is such distrust between scn and other businesses that scn has had to make their own - narconon, cchr, wise etc.

Like many businesses in the weight loss industry, or the beauty industry or others there is little or no value in these services. Remember business does not charge for value they charge for PERCEIVED VALUE .... you don't think your BMW or Porsche really cost ten times as much to build, do you?

Scientology is trademark exploited by a for-profit business.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to Terril Park

Hmmm. Scientology states its to make the able more able.
Actually, Hubbard stated that. That is a statement that many would dispute. Factually, the results of scientology are idiosyncratic, unreliable, and unstable.
It is beyond doubt that scientology deals with the immortal spirit of man.
Thus its claim to be a religion is irrefutable.
Beyond whose doubt? Beyond your doubt? Not beyond my doubt. Scientology attempts to enslave the immortal spirit of man by manipulation. Hubbard himself advocated cloaking it as a religion, going into the early 1980's. You may wish to read Larry Brennan's affidavit. Scientology is a racketeering business.
Here is part of my agenda.
I suggest you spend more time promoting Idenics than bashing me personally. I don't bash Idenics.
What you do is your business. What I do is my business. In this forum, I am calling you out when you promote the fraudulent aspects of scientology.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
CofS is a business, sure. But not all Scn'ists are in CofS and thus, the business aspect doesn't pertain to everyone. There was a time when a large powerful organization tried to define "Christian" as just the ONE TYPE and ONE CHURCH. Some people disagreed with that and now, when people say they are Christian, people will ask "what kind?".

To me, it's about choice. CofS would like to take that choice away from people- who can and call him or herself a Scn'ist. It's a shame, IMO, that some other folks also want to take away that choice.

All throughout history, people have been making their creeds their own, leaving churches and cults and either starting or professing to offshoots of their own or those of others, or quietly practicing their particular creed as they see fit.

It's neither fair nor accurate to tar everyone with the same brush.

Any approval or tolerance (grudging or otherwise) people might want to give Scn can be granted (or held back) from the ology and not just the group. In my writings and in interviews I grant, I make it quite plain that my advocacy pertains to the ology and ideas and not CofS. So if people read or listen to that and still think I'm lending any credence or assistance to CofS then they'd best think again.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to fluffy

CofS is a business, sure. But not all Scn'ists are in CofS and thus, the business aspect doesn't pertain to everyone. There was a time when a large powerful organization tried to define "Christian" as just the ONE TYPE and ONE CHURCH. Some people disagreed with that and now, when people say they are Christian, people will ask "what kind?".
Freezone practicioners run their own businesses. A few have gone the religious cloaking route like the cofs for the same tax-exempt status and avoidance of running foul of practicing clinical psychology without a license.
All throughout history, people have been making their creeds their own, leaving churches and cults and either starting or professing to offshoots of their own or those of others, or quietly practicing their particular creed as they see fit.

Except that scientology never was a religion. It was cloaked as one primarily for tax-exempt purposes. Read Larry Brennan's affidavit. Take a look at it.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Not everyone who practices Scn outside CofS charges anything or audits or gives courses for pay.

And not all FZ auditors charge, either. I've known many to audit and (some who delivered courses, too) free of charge. And not just an introductory thing, either.
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
I was part of a recognized religion that had the following:
1.A daily religious ritual including prayer and a mantra
2.A code of finding problems in one's life that had the following rules: was I reading the doctrines, was I doing the daily ritual, was I applying the doctrines and the ritual to my problem? If it wasn't working then I was doing something wrong or omitting something.

It didn't matter what the problem was. It was believed that if those steps were being followed to the letter, the problem would go away.

3. No practice of any other type of religious custom, ritual or belief was allowed in this religion.
4. Putting the religion and the organization first before any other activity, unless it had to do with health or family.

Now, this religion was ok and useful at a time of my life that I needed something like this. I also never gave up on my personal studies of alternative practices, although they were frowned upon by the leaders of said religion, it was my personal choice to do whatever I wanted.

Then I went into scientology and stopped practicing my religion.

Then I left scientology and still loved the tech and investigated the freezone. I nearly did get auditing in the freezone, but I was not prepared to give up on what I do now to feed my soul and grow as a being so I put it in words a FZ could understand when they said to come and get audited and answered, "I can't, I meditate every day as part of my religion." The wonderful and beautiful FZ woman (she is terrific) said, "stop meditating so you can get audited."

Now. For this person, this was completely reasonable and normal and good.

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
She was just giving you standard scientology advice: Stop meditating so we can brainwash you.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Mixing methods vs outright prohibition of methods

No, Smitty. In almost every situation, for someone to receive any type of regging or CSing from a Freezone CS or auditor, it's because THAT person contacted the FZ auditor. They came to that person. And of COURSE the FZ auditor believes in Scn. Just like Jews believe in Judaism and Jains believe in Jainism. Ya don't want any Scn from 'em then you don't contact the FZ, ya don't want any Jainism, don't contact a Jainist, etc.

And most Scn'ists aren't really in favor of meditation. Those of us who have no problem with it, still do not advocate doing both methods at the same time. If someone came to me wanting me to deliver any Scn services (which I don't actually do- this is just an hypothetical as to what I WOULD say) and said they were doing meditation, I would tell them that I didn't have a problem with that, but that if they wanted auditing or to do a TRs course or M1 or anything, that they'd have to not be doing any meditation at that time. And I'd say that conversely, if they wanted to do meditation and were already getting auditing or anything like that, that I would strongly urge them to finish up with their auditing or M1 or TRs course or whatever it was before embarking on the meditation.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to fluffy

No, Smitty. In almost every situation, for someone to receive any type of regging or CSing from a Freezone CS or auditor, it's because THAT person contacted the FZ auditor. They came to that person. And of COURSE the FZ auditor believes in Scn.
No, fluffy. I never stated that Lovesnightsky did not contact a fz auditor. Are you seeing words in my short two sentence post that are not there?
Just like Jews believe in Judaism and Jains believe in Jainism. Ya don't want any Scn from 'em then you don't contact the FZ, ya don't want any Jainism, don't contact a Jainist, etc.
Except that scientology is a fraudulent business that engages in brainwashing and coercion. It never was a religion, except to some of its victims in their own Stockholm Syndrome.
And most Scn'ists aren't really in favor of meditation. Those of us who have no problem with it, still do not advocate doing both methods at the same time. If someone came to me wanting me to deliver any Scn services (which I don't actually do- this is just an hypothetical as to what I WOULD say) and said they were doing meditation, I would tell them that I didn't have a problem with that, but that if they wanted auditing or to do a TRs course or M1 or anything, that they'd have to not be doing any meditation at that time. And I'd say that conversely, if they wanted to do meditation and were already getting auditing or anything like that, that I would strongly urge them to finish up with their auditing or M1 or TRs course or whatever it was before embarking on the meditation.

The definition of meditation is "the act of exercising the mind in contemplation." I infer that meditation then is a form of disciplined Free Thought.
Now I can see how any form of disciplined free thought would interfere with the brainwashing processes of scientology.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
You did state it was classic Scn brainwashing. I disagreed and said so and that's why I wrote what I did.

I'm not arguing the merits or demerits of meditation. I have no axe to grind there.

A lot of belief systems and ologies out there strike others as fraudulent. Fortunately, people have the right to make their own choices and can, if they choose, regard or disregard what contributors to the forum want to tell them on the subject.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to fluffy

A lot of belief systems and ologies out there strike others as fraudulent. Fortunately, people have the right to make their own choices and can, if they choose, regard or disregard what contributors to the forum want to tell them on the subject.

Then I will give you a salient example of fraud in scientology: The claim that scientology can produce an "OT". The fact is, no OTs have ever been produced in corporate scientology or freezone scientology. Even "OT levels" are intentionally deceptive because nobody has ended up OT from doing them. The claim of being able to produce OTs is 100% BULLSHIT.
People do have a right to make their own choices. They also have a right to be given factual information.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
reply to fluffy

I've often stated that the claims re OT are exaggerated. I'm not worried about it.

I am not telling you to be worried. I am pointing out that Hubbard's claims of making OTs were completely and knowingly false. When he solicited and accepted money based on such false claims, it is the crime of FRAUD. The religious cloaking changes nothing about the fraud. It continues to this day.
 
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