Tom Cruise has lured my friend into Scientology

[Purple Rain]

To me, while JennWonderful's story could possibly be true, it required me to suspend everything I know about human nature to the degree I would have to to believe that Casey Anthony was not involved in her child's death.

Her friend was "lucky" to meet Tom Cruise and Scientology was a "perfect fit" for her, yet she was genuinely concerned about her friend's involvement with either. Why? It is obviously terribly concerning when your friend meets somebody rich, famous and nice that they have a genuine spiritual connection with and you think they are made for each other. It is really upsetting when somebody joins your church that you only stopped attending because you couldn't afford the next course but didn't do you any harm. I can understand the problem. Not. But while the friend has Tom at her feet, after meeting him for just a few hours, she is actually more interested in David, even though Tom has also found time since then to charm the friend's mother. Also, they have been best friends for more than a decade yet she is offering to pass on her email address to strangers on an internet forum?

There are many possibilities including that this person was genuinely seeking help.

However, as someone who is naturally trusting and often taken advantage of it does hurt every time I am lied to or tricked. It often hurts me more than emotionally - it has physical real world consequences for myself and my family. I think I am just tired of being taken for a ride because I have been trained to suspend disbelief - ignore all those niggling, nagging "but wait" thoughts.

I don't think I was mean to JennWonderful but coming here and rubbing in my face how wonderful Tom Cruise, David Miscavige and Scientology are in one breath while throwing in the occasional offhanded "but I disagree with her" or "that's wacky" not only makes no sense but is bound to be upsetting in a forum of ex-Scientologists. It did upset me. Maybe I need to think about why I don't want to hear how wonderful Tom Cruise, David Miscavige and Scientology are. Maybe they really are good people and I am completely wrong about them. Maybe I should be more open to hearing this stuff. But it DOES make me angry.

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

I think it's important to acknowledge that this thread wasn't just called my friend is being lured into Scientology, but Tom Cruise lured my friend into Scientology. We talk about Tom Cruise all the time because of his role in the church but when you think about it millions of people still go to his movies and hold him in some regard. It's not that Jenn's story is impossible but she starts off already with reasonable doubt because her story sounds like a fantasy. Things just went downhill from there.

As I write this 235 people are actively looking at this thread according to the site. That's a large audience. I'm all for giving help and support where it's needed but I also don't think we should encourage people's grandiosity. I think most of us know Tom Cruise David Miscavage and the church well enough to know by now that if Jenn's story is true, she's toast, meaning she's left enough clues for her and her friends to be handled.

I have to say again, some of you are feeling very sorry for Jen. Yet answer me this. Don't you think it's a little strange and irresponsible for her to not only physically describe her friend, but to also name her friends occupation, name where her friend met Tom Cruise, and to describe the way her friend has been encouraged to join the church. Any fool who's watched even 10 minutes of television or read a magazine knows by now Scientology is nothing to fuck around with, or Jenn wouldn't be worried. So even if Jen story is absolutely true she doesn't get any points for me for how she's handled this. Her ineptitude could seriously have cost someone damage. With friends like her who needs enemies.

 

[ethercat]

OP seemed confused by it, so I considered copy/paste.

I would say you're right, Anonycat. Here's some text I copied and pasted from a post at Tipping Point where I had used it after doing an edit. I just copied directly from the post (not an edit screen) and pasted it in here using the visual (WYSIWYG) editor, and I've put code tags around it so the codes won't be interpreted.

However, I did manage to get it posted over on ESMB, giving a shameless plug to promote RFTTP and gang... [IMG]http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/Smileys/default/smiley.gif[/IMG] 
[URL="http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?29735-Ortega-Scientology-in-2012-We-hear-from-John-Sweeney-Paulette-Cooper-and-more%21&p=758346&viewfull=1#post758346"]http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?29735-Ortega-Scientology-in-2012-We-hear-from-John-Sweeney-Paulette-Cooper-and-more!&p=758346&viewfull=1#post758346[/URL]

[HR][/HR]Edit: fixed the link so it's clickable.  --ec

It's from this post over there, if you want to try it out for yourself: http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/index.php/topic,12091.msg28019.html#msg28019

Make sure you are using the "WYSIWYG" editor; you can set this with the upper left hand button in the post editing window.

Curiouser and curiouser....

 

[PTS]

Or maybe the OP is just another of the countless people at a loose end around the holidays. Not everyone has a place to be all the time, and some people have no place to be most of the time. Maybe I am being too cynical. Maybe it's just a lonely person trying to create a sort of community, however briefly, that they could feel a part of for a while. The truth can seem more humiliating than fiction when you are alone. Or maybe not, but I guess I'll never know.

 

[Type4_PTS]

I work in the legal field and people often give differing accounts of the same event, when they are deposed, writing a sworn statement or appearing in court in other venues.

Being that you work in the legal field I imagine that you could confirm this.

Yes, people do sometimes tend to give differing accounts. And the opposing attorneys will jump on the inconsistent statements to discredit that witness.

The Federal Rules of Evidence provide that a declarant witness who is currently giving testimony inconsistent with statements made previously may be impeached by attorneys for either party, including the party that called the declarant-witness,[SUP][4][/SUP] through crossexamination at the current trial/hearing/proceeding/deposition.[SUP][5][/SUP] Prior statements inconsistent with a declarant-witness' present testimony may be used to impeach the credibility because such inconsistencies tend to show that the declarant-witness' current testimony is not credible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_impeachment

 

[JennWonderful]

More Google: <hr> means 'horizontal rule' and creates a horizontal line in a document.

Suggests production and editing separately from posting. Which a lot of people do. But who uses XHTML when all the compatible formatting is provided by the server? Or does this question reveal my ignorance?

My return button stopped working when the server changed or my computer got a virus whatever happened that night. It still does not work. In my desperation to create a space between paragraphs I hit the button to the right of the x2's which made a grey line that separated the paragraphs for me. When submitted it ran back together with the hr's. No evildoing in my posting style.

 

[Anonycat]

This is from the time the change was happening. The code just showed during your Enter button loss? Bummer that it still isn't working. Here's when it was:

(Edit: I looked at all of the posts made during the transition and I didn't see any problem with the Enter/Return button function. Sorry to hear about it.)

 

[JennWonderful]

PTS,

Or it can make it clear to OSA and prankers that the people here, no matter how damaged, won't just gobble up any bullshit story, which is a waste of our time and could also distract us from other posts and requests that might be really helpful to someone in need.

For someone who is genuinely seeking help, they will see from this thread that the immediate tone from the beginning (and I have seen this throughout the forum) was one of acceptance and kindness and immediate support. I was willing to take a ride on Jenn's crazy train until I noticed that people were sending her articles on Lisa McPherson, Astra Woodcraft, and other atrocities in the church's history, and we weren't getting posts back that said, "Oh my God, I can't believe what I'm reading..." or "That's insane, my friend is really in trouble" but posts that would say "Thank you for the information!" and then totally not comment of what was sent. "Breathless" posts where Jenn writes things like, "Wow, I'm back, I just had to take a break!" like she just breezed in from picking up more beer at a Frat party. When Jenn is shown that there may be danger related to what she is posting, she later talks about "two sides" when it comes to criticizing the church, and how she feels "indifferent", how some people were helped by the church. This doesn't feel like someone in crisis.

I feel putting someone like Jenn on "blast" and ripping her funky, confused story apart can also be therapeutic for an ex-Scientologist (or anyone with PTSD from mind control) by saying we're not going to swallow bullshit anymore at face value. In that way, a lurker or someone crying out for help can read Jenn's thread and think, "Wow, they really mean business here. I can trust the level of integrity of these people. They won't let anyone take advantage of them."

I've been critical of Jenn, and also wondered if I am being hard on her. But there is something to the tone of "JennWonderful" (Goddamnit, doesn't the name say everything, people - I mean really, your friend is trouble with the church and you post as "Jenn Wonderful?) that I feel, if her story is true, she/he can use the tough love here, like slapping a hysteria person into reality. If Jenn is really who she says she is, and I highly doubt it, and she and her friend really do have access to T.C. and D.M....she is in danger and I think, dealing with two psychopaths. And I don't mind hurting her feelings, if it breaks through this hero worship tone in Jenn's posts and helps her deal with reality.

I mean why is she giving us details about her friend's grandmother and the power she has over men? That pisses me off and feels like she is wasting my time, or getting off sexually on this story. That may seem excessive to some, but there is something about Jenn's rendering of her taie, not just the details, that has a pornographic feel. Like the story is supposed to turn us on, the access to T.C. and D.M, and what's happening to her friend, and I don't feel that vibe from people who are genuinely asking for help. After awhile of reading too much of the story from posts like this, you start to feel like you are a part of it, like you are participating in something sordid. (Usually people who really need help, move past story quickly and into solution. They don't "serialize" the story - like stay tuned for the next bit of gossip, once you get "hooked".)

So fine, get off if you want, we all tell stories from time to time, just don't trick me into participating, shoot in my face, and then expect me to thank you for the free moisturizer.

Yes, let's listen and be supportive as possible. But let's not listen to incredulous stories and patronize the storyteller as if we don't have any critical faculties. Otherwise, ESMB is just one big campfire for science-fiction stories and bullshit.

Jenn, has anyone introduced you to a guy named Xenu?

Pornagraphic? That is just disgusting. And some of the comments I have read have been very hurtful. Even if someone genuinely thought I was OSA it is not ok to intentionally hurt someone's feelings. Again, I have done NOTHING to gain info on anyone here. JennWonderful is the name I go by in my REAL life because I am a REAL person that came here looking for REAL advice. I didn't expect people here to tear me apart, scrutinize every word I said, how often I am online, how late I am online, how fast I type, etc. Someone was even suspicious that I was online so late because I am in the midwest!!! ??? Do people in the Midwest go to bed at 10pm every night? And if so, I must be in Chicago?? Before I came here I had spent a couple weeks reading story after story of what goes on in Scientology. None of the links told me anything I did not already know. THAT is why I came here and why I was worried about my friend. Pease refer to my first post. I didn't ask about the atrocities that take place. I asked if my friend is being duped into thinking she will work in LA or due to of her connections could this be for real. I thought people had to work their way there so I wondered if she was being lied to. Anything after that was winging it based on what people said or asked. AND there are ex-members here that are not 100% anti-Scientology. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone had the same experience. I am not speaking about myself but from people I have heard from here. 0% are ok with what is taking place there, the work hours, abuse, misuse of money, etc. But there are varying levels of how people react because we are all different people and we all handle things differently. That is normal!!

 

[JennWonderful]

Perhaps, Claire, but why would Jenn talk about the benefits that people have gotten from the church....if she feels this way, why is she worried about her friend?

I think it is ok to see both sides of any subject. Because I don't want my friend to experience that abuse some have gone through but more than anything, when I started this thread I was more concerned that she was being misled into joining. That they would say she would be in LA when in fact she would be shipped of to Peru or somewhere and wouldn't be able to get home.

 

[JennWonderful]

And when inconsistencies are revealed on a persons part telling the tale, it's called lying.

What are the inconsistencies? Divide what I have said into two categories. Facts and my feelings. Then remove my feelings. The facts are the facts and they did not change. My feelings do. Human nature.

 

[Gottabrain]

But there are varying levels of how people react because we are all different people and we all handle things differently. That is normal!!

Jenn, you haven't been completely written off or everyone would have stopped talking to you.

So allowing for a delayed reaction then, what do you personally think about what happened to Lisa MacPherson? (details, please)

Why was she locked up (what do you think)?

Why wasn't she given psychiatric care (what do you think)?

How is it that she became so much worse after Scientology claimed to try to help her?

Why was she left in a filthy, cockroach infested room?

Why was this done to her? Do you think this was fair, or right?

Why were the documents surrounding her, including statements of medical condition, destroyed by Scientologists?

I'm very interested in your answers to these questions.

 

[JennWonderful]

Whether said person made it up, bought into it or is spreading it for their own purposes, it's still a lie. The inconsistencies are the measure of what's being said, much like El Con and his $cientology or in this case, this thread. Whether anyone is interested in buying into this thread, I'll leave for each person to decide based on those inconsistencies.

How is it a lie? Were you there? Do you know us? Are you wanting everyone to think it is a lie to protect your own interests? Maybe you are the OSA trying to control the situation and make people think it is a lie? That statement alone makes you closer to an OSA person than myself. Because from what I understand they would like to disprove what I am saying. Right?

 

[exsomessenger]

What are the inconsistencies? Divide what I have said into two categories. Facts and my feelings. Then remove my feelings. The facts are the facts and they did not change. My feelings do. Human nature.

Hiya Jenn. I do not get why you have so much attention on your friend. Sure we all want to help others but who goes on a messege board and spends all this time digging for a friend. Granted I am comming into this late and will mosty be ignored by the majority. if we spend all our time trying to change a friend and worry about how others will or will not do or say things. it speaks volumes about the person that would undertake such a path.

Is the friend just a "friend?" could this really be you? I do not know. just strikes me as odd why all this uproar and comotion is coming about because you are concerend about a friend. have you directed this friend to look for themselves or to seak their own councel? have you considered that we have to make our own mistakes in life with out Friends meddling in our business.

Well either way I'm glad your here and posting. do not let all the opinions here get to you. They were all fucked over by the church and might have a bit of anger about that. They are all good people and have all the right to be upset and act out. Better here then in the real world right. After all this is just a messege board. remember the old phrase sticks and stone my break my bones but chains and whips excite me, or something like that? make it a good day.

 

[Gottabrain]

Please answer my questions, Jenn.

Jenn, you haven't been completely written off or everyone would have stopped talking to you.

So allowing for a delayed reaction then, what do you personally think about what happened to Lisa MacPherson? (details, please)

Why was she locked up (what do you think)?

Why wasn't she given psychiatric care (what do you think)?

How is it that she became so much worse after Scientology claimed to try to help her?

Why was she left in a filthy, cockroach infested room?

Why was this done to her? Do you think this was fair, or right?

Why were the documents surrounding her, including statements of medical condition, destroyed by Scientologists?

I'm very interested in your answers to these questions.

 

[JennWonderful]

Let's assume that JennWonderful is an OSA staff, or some variation thereof. It's an utterly time-wasting activity for a staff member or other propagandist to come to this site and try to seed sweetness and light for scientology. So if time is being diverted from more productive uses of precious time, then the staff member is the one who is wasting the most.

Let's say that staff member reads not only this thread but many others here with the same agenda. That person is getting a boat-load of experienced, detailed, knowledgable accounts of what is wrong with Hubbard, Miscavige and scientology - information that is slowly seeping into their thoughts and life experience.

The helpfulness, concern and genuine desire to protect someone from suffering needlessly when they can enjoy the freedom of their mind and emotions, of their movements, of their work, families and friends instead may become clear to this staffer, or whomever has taken on this "cleaning the Aegean stables" task of futilely trying to persuade people who may have decades more experience dealing with the iniquities of scientology than does the staffer.

Pro-Hubbard/Miscavige/greedy-fearful-psychopaths-masquerading-as-spiritual-leaders seeds are falling on barren soil here. But for the scientology devotee who seeks to convert, or re-convert people to the cult, coming to this site is definitely planting in them irresistible seeds of reality, dissent and freedom with their promise of future happiness and a more full, balanced way of life, joyful.

To say nothing of the less-connected-to-scientology, who may stumble across these threads and get a glimpse of the compassion at work presented here.

It's like the staffer is fishing for gullible, little, easily manipulated converts and landed whales of human kindness, compassion and concern instead.

I hope they're reeling it in and reeling from the reality check they're getting as well.

We are known, understood and loved unconditionally, whether we are consciously aware of it or not. And no human being gives that to us. And no human being takes it away.

If you don't believe that, check out people who've had near-death experiences. They've lived to tell the tale, and no amount of skepticism or criticism or condemnation is enough to alter what they know (no, I have no connection to this or any other site that presents this material) www.nderf.org

Why do I mention that here? Because ultimately that's what we need to remember. Religions, cults, philosophies, charismatic leaders, etc. are fingers pointing to that moon. No need to gnaw on the finger when you can gaze at the moon itself.

Go in peace, all ye who gather here. And have a nice day, while you're at it. Heh.

I like you but you are wrong here for sure. Some of the people here are downright mean. I have no clue what it would be like to be a staff member or OSA person but as a regular person associated with someone that will likely join one of those two, I definitely do not find the forum a comforting place at all. Many of the members here are excellent people and would be a great source of support and comfort for anyone that came here for any reason looking for support. But a small group of you overshadow those good people with negativity and suspicion. For anyone that is weak minded, Like I would guess many staff members would be, they would be more scared to come here than not. This is only my opinion based on my experience of course. I am not easily broken down so I can handle it. They may not be able to.

 

[Anonycat]

Hi Jenn, welcome back.

I will reset and take you at face value. Here is some traffic I spotted:

1) You were in the cult for almost a year, but don't seem to know a whole lot about it, and nothing wrong with that. Just remarkable.

2) You are worried that your friend will not get the job they were promised. I think you're right, if your description of her is accurate: she can get money out of people, and with her natural warmth, she can hustle in L.A. at the CC, I'd think. If that is your main concern, I personally would consider her lost to the cult. If they did want to place her somewhere else, or doing something else, they would tell her so and she would oblige. Given the cast, that's how I see it.

3) You have read many threads here - so you must have observed our little family squabbles here and there. Yet, you seem to have been offended in many ways in your thread. I cannot explain this. I would just suggest to consider the lively discussion and examination of topics, and see that this thread is no more special or a lesser thread than anything else here. You are getting the same examination I would get, or anyone. I've only been here a few years, and lurked for months before that, but I think I understand that much. Don't take things so personally as to derail your mission. Let's get back to your original intent to help - yes?

 

[Anonycat]

snip<

But a small group of you overshadow those good people with negativity and suspicion. For anyone that is weak minded, Like I would guess many staff members would be, they would be more scared to come here than not. This is only my opinion based on my experience of course. I am not easily broken down so I can handle it. They may not be able to.

There actually isn't a small group of us. We are all groups of one. No teams, no roaming gangs of bullies, just opinions and perspective. Broad strokes of hatred usually don't go over or get accepted by sane people. Just thought I should say that. Back to the part about your friend?

 

[JennWonderful]

To me, while JennWonderful's story could possibly be true, it required me to suspend everything I know about human nature to the degree I would have to to believe that Casey Anthony was not involved in her child's death.

Her friend was "lucky" to meet Tom Cruise and Scientology was a "perfect fit" for her, yet she was genuinely concerned about her friend's involvement with either. Why? It is obviously terribly concerning when your friend meets somebody rich, famous and nice that they have a genuine spiritual connection with and you think they are made for each other. It is really upsetting when somebody joins your church that you only stopped attending because you couldn't afford the next course but didn't do you any harm. I can understand the problem. Not. But while the friend has Tom at her feet, after meeting him for just a few hours, she is actually more interested in David, even though Tom has also found time since then to charm the friend's mother. Also, they have been best friends for more than a decade yet she is offering to pass on her email address to strangers on an internet forum?

There are many possibilities including that this person was genuinely seeking help.

However, as someone who is naturally trusting and often taken advantage of it does hurt every time I am lied to or tricked. It often hurts me more than emotionally - it has physical real world consequences for myself and my family. I think I am just tired of being taken for a ride because I have been trained to suspend disbelief - ignore all those niggling, nagging "but wait" thoughts.

I don't think I was mean to JennWonderful but coming here and rubbing in my face how wonderful Tom Cruise, David Miscavige and Scientology are in one breath while throwing in the occasional offhanded "but I disagree with her" or "that's wacky" not only makes no sense but is bound to be upsetting in a forum of ex-Scientologists. It did upset me. Maybe I need to think about why I don't want to hear how wonderful Tom Cruise, David Miscavige and Scientology are. Maybe they really are good people and I am completely wrong about them. Maybe I should be more open to hearing this stuff. But it DOES make me angry.

The person I gave her info to had a personal connection and offered to talk to her and I think she needed to hear from someone that knew all sides and could see the good and bad in both. While a select few of you ONLY see the bad, there are some ex's in here that can put aside their hatred and speak openly which is what people need sometimes. Many people, such as myself AND my friend, put a wall up when someone is completely one sided. They're bad, everything they do is bad, all they stand for is bad, etc. is not the best approach for everyone. Most of you should know that. I have said MORE THAN ONCE that I am NOT pro-Scientology. But I do not think all of the people involved are bad. Mary Joe at the local office is far removed from what goes on at the upper levels and I can bet you my last dollar they don't believe most of it. How can you disagree? If you look at the website and only that, it sounds good, sorry. If they made good on what they say is their ethics, morals, whichever, in theory IT WOULD make the world a better place. Then you add in the labor, abuse, prisons, deaths, missing people, threats, etc and it changes into something more. I never did an auditing session so I have no experience there but there ARE people on this forum that think they are beneficial. That is why some still receive these sessions through other groups. So you cannot say that it is all bad as an absolute. My friend would for sure make the perfect Scientologist based on what you read on the website and based on how she views the upper levels of management. That is not me speaking bad of her it is that she is misguided I guess. Hence why I came here.

 

[Krautfag]

42 pages of trolling.

That's what I get for taking a christmas break.

 

[JennWonderful]

I think it's important to acknowledge that this thread wasn't just called my friend is being lured into Scientology, but Tom Cruise lured my friend into Scientology. We talk about Tom Cruise all the time because of his role in the church but when you think about it millions of people still go to his movies and hold him in some regard. It's not that Jenn's story is impossible but she starts off already with reasonable doubt because her story sounds like a fantasy. Things just went downhill from there.

As I write this 235 people are actively looking at this thread according to the site. That's a large audience. I'm all for giving help and support where it's needed but I also don't think we should encourage people's grandiosity. I think most of us know Tom Cruise David Miscavage and the church well enough to know by now that if Jenn's story is true, she's toast, meaning she's left enough clues for her and her friends to be handled.

I have to say again, some of you are feeling very sorry for Jen. Yet answer me this. Don't you think it's a little strange and irresponsible for her to not only physically describe her friend, but to also name her friends occupation, name where her friend met Tom Cruise, and to describe the way her friend has been encouraged to join the church. Any fool who's watched even 10 minutes of television or read a magazine knows by now Scientology is nothing to fuck around with, or Jenn wouldn't be worried. So even if Jen story is absolutely true she doesn't get any points for me for how she's handled this. Her ineptitude could seriously have cost someone damage. With friends like her who needs enemies.

I have to agree with you here. Hindsight. Right? I never expected more than a couple dozen people to see any of this. It was just a website I happened to come across and posted without doing enough research. And thought that since is says 'ex' on the main page that it was a good place to go and the info be safe. maybe it is naivety but I thought that ex-Scientologists could only speak out undercover and in secret places where they wouldn't be outed and firebombed or executed in dark alleys. I had no idea you could talk bad about your experiences in the open. While I wish I had revealed less at the time I felt the need to prove the situation for anyone to take me seriously enough to give the advice I sought. And yet no one still believes it! I don't think they will know who she is. Maybe me because I am stupid. I never said where and I left a lot of the information out that would surely be identifying. He made many films this year and has met dozens of woman at these locations and many probably looked into Scientology. There are a LOT of women that are in the same careers all over the country. Actually, there are some in EVERY city.