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"Tom Cruise Worships David Miscavige Like a God" - John Brousseau/Village Voice

I think it may also have something to do with groups/circles people are involved in. At the time, he was hanging out with Indies and fresh out, just waking up to the world. Having the commonality of someone else knowing what it's like to wake up is a huge draw when you're fresh out.

As someone else who is fresh out, I find it hard relating experiences with anyone. They look at it with fascination as well as bewilderment, yet I'm still processing it all and feel like I need to talk about it. There would be something enticing about finding someone who is also a former culty who no longer wants to be a part of it, where both could help each other heal, with real understanding of what it was/is like to deal with.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
Sure, but 20?? I have friends having children at 35, 38 and 41 so I don't thinking wanting children necessitates having a partner that young - these girls just few years out of high school, if they ever went. Anyway, the age gap is far greater than necessary if for having a child. in fact one might argue these girls having babies so young isn't exactly a stable choice either. Tying a young girl who hasn't experienced much of life with a much older husband and children usually doesn't bode well down the road.

Now I'll grant you most men in their 50's wouldn't mind sleeping with a 20 year old, but a long term serious relationship with such an age difference would be awkward for a mature man. There are always exceptions, young women who are mature for their age, etc... But I'm just observing a number of middle age ex-SO men pairing with women 30 years plus their junior. I just think a lot of emotional suppression goes on in the SO and this effects the normal maturation process of many men trapped within it, ESP I think the ones in the bubble on INT.

Marty would be an exception to this, his wife is in her late 30's, maybe even her mid 40's - so I'm not saying this applies to all just that it seems far more common than in the general population. (Also having young Scio women who look up to these older SO vets doesn't hurt, usually younger women wouldnt be much interested in a 53 year old man unless he was loaded.)

Perhaps it's not about age but about shared experiences.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
Perhaps it's not about age but about shared experiences.

Sure, but the James girl wasn't a 30 year SO vet. I'm not sure she was ever in the SO - I know her parents ran an org and were SO, so she got the childhood SO experience - JB got a "normal" childhood. I think the James was one of those situations when kids were allowed, but frowned upon, so the parents were busted to an outer org to raise them.

While I'm sure while they do have things in common there were also older women who were ex-SO JB was around after his blow.

I didn't want to really dissect JB's relationship, more just as a general thing I've noticed the guys who were trapped in the SO for decades hooking up with women who are closer to the age when the men originally joined the SO, than to their current age. It's like emotionally they are still around the same age as when they entered the SO.
 

tetloj

Silver Meritorious Patron
There is some friction due to him becoming involved with Mareka James. She is the daughter of Hayden James and his wife, who are still die hard (Indie) believers. There wasn't exactly all around approval of the relationship, given john is in his 50's and Mareka in her early 20's. I'm sure even worse to the indies was John not getting on board the indie train - they probably would have come around to the relationship had he stayed in the believer fold.

It shouldn't matter if the meat bodies are a few decades apart since they are just a transport system for thetans that are a gazillion years old. Or don't indies believe that? I get so confused.

:dizzy::coolwink:
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
VV SNIPIT: Rathbun was eager to hear about the latest news from the base. He helped Brousseau find the hotel room, and planned to meet again the next day. Then, that morning, Davis and the others showed up.


so he escaped the INT base and handled the "blow drill." avoided all contact and the COS had no idea where he was.

within hrs of arriving in texas and getting to a hotel room where only him and Marty knew of. THE CHURCH SHOWS UP.

is it just me or does this seem odd to anyone else?

I guess the simple explanation is that the COS has a network of people spying on Marty 24/7 so they must have found out that way? this just seems odd to me.

Yeah, I read that and thought to myself, "Holy shit! That bastard really is an OSA op!" But I went to the link in Marty's blog where he mentioned almost offhand that he had used his own credit card to pay for JB's hotel room. That's another layer of explanation besides JB's phone call to him.
 

BunnySkull

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yeah, I read that and thought to myself, "Holy shit! That bastard really is an OSA op!" But I went to the link in Marty's blog where he mentioned almost offhand that he had used his own credit card to pay for JB's hotel room. That's another layer of explanation besides JB's phone call to him.

Kind of makes you think Marty wanted to alert the hounds - drama and camera footage is good for biz. Marty of all people knew that renting a motel room with his CC would instantly be seized upon. (Credit reports are notoriously easy to pull, private eyes get used car dealers to do it all the time. I'm sure the cult has much better methods, which Marty well knows.)

Add to the fact JB said he had thousands in cash with him, why the hell would he not rent a hotel room and pay cash and so as to keep it on the DL?
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
I think it may also have something to do with groups/circles people are involved in. At the time, he was hanging out with Indies and fresh out, just waking up to the world. Having the commonality of someone else knowing what it's like to wake up is a huge draw when you're fresh out.

As someone else who is fresh out, I find it hard relating experiences with anyone. They look at it with fascination as well as bewilderment, yet I'm still processing it all and feel like I need to talk about it. There would be something enticing about finding someone who is also a former culty who no longer wants to be a part of it, where both could help each other heal, with real understanding of what it was/is like to deal with.

I only did a couple of courses before the whole thing made me really nervous and I decided to never set foot into another org again, so feel free to dismiss this suggestion.

I wanted to talk to my in friend about Scno, but all he ever gave me back was the company line - quite aggressively, I might add. I found it extremely odd that this great, independent, intelligent, and generally wonderful guy seemed to transform into Mr, Hyde (that is the evil one, right?)when Scn was under discussion. Through one of my many google searches on the topic, I came accross Steven Hassan's site www.freedomofmind.org. I checked both his books out of the library and found them to be really helpful both as far as dealing with my friend and my own issues (having been born in North Korea and escaping and later being in an extremely abusive marriage).

I can't say that I can relate 100% to a culty, but really a lot of the stuff that Hassan talked about made me see through the mindfuck that I experienced and process it. Maybe those books could help you as well.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Kind of makes you think Marty wanted to alert the hounds - drama and camera footage is good for biz. Marty of all people knew that renting a motel room with his CC would instantly be seized upon. (Credit reports are notoriously easy to pull, private eyes get used car dealers to do it all the time. I'm sure the cult has much better methods, which Marty well knows.)

Add to the fact JB said he had thousands in cash with him, why the hell would he not rent a hotel room and pay cash and so as to keep it on the DL?

Did he have an ID? My experience is that hotels won't let you pay cash withoug some form of ID.

And yeah, after I wrote that last post, it crossed my mind that Marty could've done this for grandstanding purposes. He seems to really love putting on a good show for his blog and Steve Hall's site.

Marty did call the cops on the OSA goons - I will give him credit for that. I don't think an OSA op would've done that, because it would have introduced an element of unpredictability.
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Marty did call the cops on the OSA goons - I will give him credit for that. I don't think an OSA op would've done that, because it would have introduced an element of unpredictability.

I'm not particularly following this thread, but couldn't help but notice the above comment.

Firstly, I don't think Marty's an OSA op (at least I'm pretty convinced he's not); secondly, going through the documents seized by the FBI in July 1977, I read internal messages discussing how Scientology was cooperating - pre-raids - with the FBI, and reporting bad apples in the organization. These were insignificant underlings in unimportant matters, but the Scientologist were very impressed with their ability to "play" the FBI, by making it appear that they were cooperating with the FBI.

Since the FBI, a few years earlier, had arrested Paulette Cooper for bomb threats made by Scientology to itself, and the FBI was completely fooled by Scientology, then, the Scientologists were confident that they could continue fooling the FBI.

Even though a fair amount of Scientology's "intelligence" tech has been exposed, it seems that understanding of it is not too great.

A deep operative can do almost anything.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
I'm not particularly following this thread, but couldn't help but notice the above comment.

Firstly, I don't think Marty's an OSA op (at least I'm pretty convinced he's not); secondly, going through the documents seized by the FBI in July 1977, I read internal messages discussing how Scientology was cooperating - pre-raids - with the FBI, and reporting bad apples in the organization. These were insignificant underlings in unimportant matters, but the Scientologist were very impressed with their ability to "play" the FBI, by making it appear that they were cooperating with the FBI.

Since the FBI, a few years earlier, had arrested Paulette Cooper for bomb threats made by Scientology to itself, and the FBI was completely fooled by Scientology, then, the Scientologists were confident that they could continue fooling the FBI.

Even though a fair amount of Scientology's "intelligence" tech has been exposed, it seems that understanding of it is not too great.

A deep operative can do almost anything.

That's helpful info. I personally would not introduce players that I can't control into games that I play, but I can see why M&M might if they've succeeded in the past. It's even more disturbing to me that they would roll other Scilons under the bus to facilitate that, but really nothing surprises me anymore with OSA.

The only reason I hold out on buying into the "Marty is an OSA Op" theory is that he has done a tremendous amount of damage to the cult's public image. Seriously, I would have probably gotten a lot deeper involved were it not for Marty and his followers. M&M could keep tabs on former high-ranking defectors without giving interviews to Ortega, Toobin, Childs, CNN, etc.

OSA showing up to JB's hotel room and the Israeli's getting declared at the airport could be from garden variety OSA PI tails tapping Marty's phones or following them from Marty's house, or tracing Marty's credit cards.

All of this begs the question of why Marty is so careless? Why doesn't he have his house and phone swept for bugs? Why doesn't he use throwaway phones? Countersurveillance? Pay cash? Seriously, you can learn most of this stuff from watching the Sopranos. My personal opinion is that he is playing OSA's weaknesses to make himself look better and DM/OSA look worse. Those Squirrelbuster videos and some of the screaming OSA stalker videos on Steve Hall's site are pretty awful, and made me shed a few tears for Marty back in the day.
 

Div6

Crusader
That's helpful info. I personally would not introduce players that I can't control into games that I play, but I can see why M&M might if they've succeeded in the past. It's even more disturbing to me that they would roll other Scilons under the bus to facilitate that, but really nothing surprises me anymore with OSA.

The only reason I hold out on buying into the "Marty is an OSA Op" theory is that he has done a tremendous amount of damage to the cult's public image. Seriously, I would have probably gotten a lot deeper involved were it not for Marty and his followers. M&M could keep tabs on former high-ranking defectors without giving interviews to Ortega, Toobin, Childs, CNN, etc.

OSA showing up to JB's hotel room and the Israeli's getting declared at the airport could be from garden variety OSA PI tails tapping Marty's phones or following them from Marty's house, or tracing Marty's credit cards.

All of this begs the question of why Marty is so careless? Why doesn't he have his house and phone swept for bugs? Why doesn't he use throwaway phones? Countersurveillance? Pay cash? Seriously, you can learn most of this stuff from watching the Sopranos. My personal opinion is that he is playing OSA's weaknesses to make himself look better and DM/OSA look worse. Those Squirrelbuster videos and some of the screaming OSA stalker videos on Steve Hall's site are pretty awful, and made me shed a few tears for Marty back in the day.


He doesn't for a couple of reasons: 1) Shortly after JB blew, he went to the FBI with what he knew. The greatest fear amongst those there was the possibility of another "Jonestown\Waco" melt-down. As we found out later, the FBI WAS interested, and then not so much. In a way, I can't really blame them as they have been played by this cult both ways to hell in the past, and it is always a test to know "which end is up."
2) Part of the "case" being made was that the cult had illegal access to phone records, airline reservation information, credit card info, etc. M and M know this, as they have used this information themselves in the past. Having it "used" against them just gives more credence to what they were saying. 3) At this point, anyone worth salvaging is pretty much out. If the FBI were to mount a "raid", those they find there would pretty much say "I'm good."
 

exsomessenger

Patron Meritorious
He doesn't for a couple of reasons: 1) Shortly after JB blew, he went to the FBI with what he knew. The greatest fear amongst those there was the possibility of another "Jonestown\Waco" melt-down. As we found out later, the FBI WAS interested, and then not so much. In a way, I can't really blame them as they have been played by this cult both ways to hell in the past, and it is always a test to know "which end is up."
2) Part of the "case" being made was that the cult had illegal access to phone records, airline reservation information, credit card info, etc. M and M know this, as they have used this information themselves in the past. Having it "used" against them just gives more credence to what they were saying. 3) At this point, anyone worth salvaging is pretty much out. If the FBI were to mount a "raid", those they find there would pretty much say "I'm good."

I know and like you Div. We have had some good in person conversations. I hear you on most of this post. But I do not agree with point 3.

is that your own thought or did you hear it from another? What brought you to that conclusion?

so given that reasoning should we all just say fuck it all the good ones worth saving are out all ready. Hey Emma thanks for the board but we got all the ones that are worth it so lets close up shop. our work here is done.

did you mean salvaging or maybe saving/helping? theese are people that we are talking about humans, flesh and blood. not some machine that we can recondition to adhear to the new way of thinking. We want them to start thinking for themselves right? we want to help them recover right?

I tend to believe that I misunderstood you and hope that this is me jumping to conclusions? :unsure:
 

Div6

Crusader
I know and like you Div. We have had some good in person conversations. I hear you on most of this post. But I do not agree with point 3.

is that your own thought or did you hear it from another? What brought you to that conclusion?

so given that reasoning should we all just say fuck it all the good ones worth saving are out all ready. Hey Emma thanks for the board but we got all the ones that are worth it so lets close up shop. our work here is done.

did you mean salvaging or maybe saving/helping? theese are people that we are talking about humans, flesh and blood. not some machine that we can recondition to adhear to the new way of thinking. We want them to start thinking for themselves right? we want to help them recover right?

I tend to believe that I misunderstood you and hope that this is me jumping to conclusions? :unsure:

No, I an not saying or implying that we should close up shop or give up hope. Price of Freedom applies. What I meant to say is that from my viewpoint, those that are left "in" are the ones with the biggest blinders, the biggest overts, the biggest ser facs, and they lock the doors from within. A number of them are also bound to toe the line because they have children in, or other family members, and the "Church" uses the fear of disconnection to enforce silence. That is going to be a tough nut to crack. But with the siege machinery very much in place, I think the focus, for me, becomes delivery to those that desire it. If that starts happening, and those "still in" become aware of the fact that they can get what they want without all the added inapplicable BS...then I think those that are capable of introspection will see that there is really no reason to continue to maintain the defensive posture. "There are many rooms in my Fathers mansion", some guy once said.

And you know I have the deepest respect for you as well.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
No, I an not saying or implying that we should close up shop or give up hope. Price of Freedom applies. What I meant to say is that from my viewpoint, those that are left "in" are the ones with the biggest blinders, the biggest overts, the biggest ser facs, and they lock the doors from within. A number of them are also bound to toe the line because they have children in, or other family members, and the "Church" uses the fear of disconnection to enforce silence. That is going to be a tough nut to crack. But with the siege machinery very much in place, I think the focus, for me, becomes delivery to those that desire it. If that starts happening, and those "still in" become aware of the fact that they can get what they want without all the added inapplicable BS...then I think those that are capable of introspection will see that there is really no reason to continue to maintain the defensive posture. "There are many rooms in my Fathers mansion", some guy once said.

And you know I have the deepest respect for you as well.

I took your response to mean that those with any intel worth having are out, and see that's what you meant.

When I read your response earlier today, I thought that I tend to agree but not 100%. Heber is still alive, and I'm sure he knows a few things. Maybe not as much as Marty and Mike, but I think he knows enough to be of some worth. Shelley, IF she is still alive, is probably worth more intel. It's certainly not a bunch of high-value targets still in Int, but at least two of them. Laurisse Stuckenbruck makes three - and ya gotta admit that DM's "communicator" has got to have some serious dirt. I don't know if she's got enough human feelings left to want to make anything up to Uwe, but I would probably try to push that button if I ever got the chance.

But OK, assuming that the FBI didn't feel that there was anything left at Int that they didn't already have with the present lot of defectors, what's left.... A bunch of illiterate 2nd generation clams raised up on the Study Dreck? OK, I agree that they have blinders on, and probably have nothing to contribute here. But we've heard about 8 year olds being kept out of school and working 100 hour weeks. I don't buy the story that the statute of limitations passed on "all" of that because I saw the Anon raids a few months ago that took pictures of small children getting off the Flag buses in Sea Org Alley. I absolutely DO NOT believe for a moment that they were going to school. And that little African kid that was on the leaks forum here a few months back - holding a teddy bear in one hand and a billion-year contract in the other. What about those Polish guys that Arnie and Roan talked to when they did their, uhm, walk-through of that Ideal Org in So Cal (for the sound stage - that was damn funny)? I'm willing to bet that those guys thought that they were gonna get some free auditing in exchange for light handyman work, but had their passports taken when they got to Int. We could recite that story by heart around here.

So..... I actually think that the batch that's left at Int NOW might be better than the high-profile defectors. M&M have blood on their hands (literally), as do other high-profile defectors. And really, with the Hole and RPF stories, the FBI would have to worry about the "his-word-against-DM" kinda thing. But if they raided and found a bunch of malnourished overworked 8 year olds who have never had formal schooling???? Jus' sayin.

She says, descending from the soapbox.

:carryon:
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
I didn't want to really dissect JB's relationship, more just as a general thing I've noticed the guys who were trapped in the SO for decades hooking up with women who are closer to the age when the men originally joined the SO, than to their current age. It's like emotionally they are still around the same age as when they entered the SO.

This is an interesting point. I've wondered about it too.

And I would personally put Marty in this category also. I didn't realize Monique was as old as she is. She does seem like a young girl compared to him, and the relationship very much has that "young girl looking up to experienced older guy" vibe. I don't know her personally, but the things that I've seen coming from both of them have definitely given me that impression.

There definitely could be something to the "emotionally the same age" thing when you get out. I joined the SO when I was in my mid 20s and I was 40 when I got out. My life, at least at first, very much felt like it was in an "early 20s" place. No money, no savings, not much to build a resume on. It's like I spent years in a time warp.
 
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