Tom of Helatrobus vs. Denver org

Tom of Helatrobus

Patron Meritorious
Tom of Helatrobus here.

Today (5.20.08) I picketed the org in Denver. I made a two sided sign reading, "Scientology willl 'Clear' your 'Bank' ... and your lines of credit" and "Scientology is Science Fiction... and a cult and a fraud." I parked my car, mentally prepared myself then picked up the sign and walked out. I walked toward the front of the org to where they would be able to see me through the window. I was planning on doing a circuit up and down the street.

By coincidence, just as I neared the front of the org, Patty, a senior staff member, walked out. She stopped and looked at me for a bit, then took out her phone and thumbed the keys.

"Hello." I said

"Hello Tom, making up for lost time?"

"Yeah, I missed the last picket, so I figured that needed to do a make up."

"Okay, what were you planning to accomplish?"

"I was just going to walk around with the sign... on the side walk."

As it turned out, I just stood there and talked with Patty and another staffer, Suzanne, for the next two and a half hours. I was prepared for that possibility. I figured that would be the best way for them to handle me and stop me from waving my sign around. I know how preoccupied with PR they are. But really, I wanted to talk to them. I wanted to point out flaws, criticize and tell them my side of the story. So I put my sign down, and there on the side walk and then on a bench next to the org, we talked for hours.

For the most part, we both became two broken records.

She told me, "You need to sit down with the new basic books and read them all."

I told her, "You should get both sides of the story. Why can't you got to xenu.net or the exscn message board?"

I stopped recording on the cam corder because Patty asked me to not film her. I was there to illuminate and not infuriate so I complied. I showed her that the cam corder was on standby and not recording.

---
 

Tom of Helatrobus

Patron Meritorious
Here are some high lights from the conversation: I was standing three feet away from Patty and we were chatting nicely. Then Patty told Suzanne to call the police.

"Aaaa... the police?" I asked

"Just to let them know we have a protester here..."

"Oh... Okay."

Then we went back to talking again.

When the police didn't show up, they were called again.

The police finally came with two cars. Must be a slow day in Englewood, I thought to myself.

A police woman walked out of the car, looking at us with a mixture of bewilderment and being annoyed. “Is there a problem here?”

“No we just called to let you know we have a protester.”

“Oh, because when I drove by the first time, I didn’t see a problem. I drove right in front of you and no one waved me down or anything. Then I got another call and I came, got out of the car and you’re all standing here talking with no sign of a dispute going on.”

Patty explained something about a detective or someone told her to call.. She didn’t go into the whole bit about how I was affiliated with a “terrorist” group. My guess is she didn’t want to insult the intelligence of the officer.

The police woman addressed me, “You know the rules, right? Stay on the side walk, don’t got in the street, don’t disrupt traffic...”

“Yes, I think so. Don’t disturb the peace and stay on the sidewalk... things like that.”

“That’s right. And if you don’t, you’re outta here.”

“Yes ma’am.”

The police woman turned, walked to her cruiser and drove off.

I had a friend who is a cop, he told me that cops get really pissed off when you waste there time with stupid calls. I got the impression that the cops got really irked with Patty and Suzanne for calling them when I wasn’t doing anything illegal.

---
 

Tom of Helatrobus

Patron Meritorious
She kept telling that Anonymous was a terrorist group because they had gotten numerous threats and faxes.

I retorted that not everyone in Anonymous was bad, just because a few people were. Besides, anyone could have made those calls, they might have even been manufactured by Scientologists. I asked her if the building was evacuated due to the threats.

“No we didn’t need to because, they were future threats.”

“Oh, do you mean they were talking in the future tense?”

“Yes.”

Now, I’ve never been in the IRA, but I know, from watching TV and movies, that you make the call while the bomb is in the building and right before the bomb is set to go off or right after it has gone off. Future threats? It just doesn’t make sense. The fact that they got any threat at all and didn’t evacuate the building says they are lying about getting threats or have a complete disregard for the lives of the staff and public.

---

We talked about Anonymous at some length. I conceded that most Anons didn’t have the full story on Scientology since it was a complex story, and most of what was on the net was, although true, also sensationalist. I told her that when I showed up at my first picket, I had to explain to some Anons that the staff of Scientology was well intentioned and other wise good people, just misinformed due to Scientology.

I never did get the full story on what she thought of Anonymous. From the most I can gather, for her, anyone who affiliates themselves with Anonymous is a terrorist. That includes me. I tried to make arguments to the contrary, but it was like talking to a wall. Let me tell you, her TR s were IN!

We talked about an incident on Dianetics Day when 3 Colorado Anons crashed the Dianetics day conference that was being held at a hotel ballroom. They talked for a bit and were, eventually escorted out by security.

On the Colorado Anonymous forum, one Anon seemed mystified because the Scientologists seemed to know who they even without their mask on. I asked Patty about this - who told me she was the OSA terminal at Denver Org - and she told me that she recognized them by their heights and mannerisms.

“You did not!” I protested. “You have to be monitoring the message board or something.”

“There was one girl who was short and she had this very particular walk. I’ve been watching them for the last four months... There was this other guy who had a very particular part in his hair.”

What I took from that, is that the footage from the pickets gets poured over and poured over and that Patty has too much time on her hands.

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Tom of Helatrobus

Patron Meritorious
I asked her if she knew that Bruce Hines had been to one of the pickets. She immediately said yes and added that she had no interest in talking to him. He was a sexual pervert and is lying about holding the high post that he held ( he was in CMO INT).

Bruce told me that the Scientologists where calling him a sexual pervert since he was declared, but I was a bit taken aback by the fact that she really seemed to believe it. I pointed out to Patty that it seemed suspicious that many high posted ex-Scientologists were accused of lying about their post.

His name came up when we were talking about David Miscavige and again, when we were talking about the Golden Age of Tech, I told her she should talk to Bruce, who had been at Gold and RPFed due to his contention that the Golden Age of Tech was out tech. He was a high level auditor and would be better at talking about that stuff than me.

She disputed that fact that he was a high level auditor and said that even if I showed her the certs, she would think they were forged. Again, I got the feeling that I was talking to a wall.

---

Of course, the threat of being declared suppressive entered the conversation.

“Do you want to be declared?” she asked me.

“I don’t care. No one in my family is a Scientologist, so it wouldn’t effect me.”

“But your family wouldn’t be able to go up the bridge if you were declared.”

“ You mean that they would have to choose between me and Scientology.”

“That’s right.”

“Well, my point is that I shouldn’t be put in that position in the first place. For instance, my whole family is Catholic and I have criticisms of the Vatican, but I can still talk criticize Catholicism and my family will still talk to me.”

“But we’re not like that. We don’t allow people in who actively try to HARM us.”

“But I’m not harming, I’m just criticizing.”

---

Also, I made my argument that if Scientology really worked, the planet would be cleared by now.

She argued that there was so much resistance to Scientology, that mere survival was a huge win.

I scoffed. “But you’ve got the tech and the admin tech and ethics tech and all those volumes, the green and the red - and still the vast majority of people haven’t even heard of Scientology, or confuse it with Christian Science. What kind of progress is that? You’ve been at this for 50 years. Is Scientology really helping anyone?”

Also I argued that if the tech worked, it was so difficult to apply correctly that it was totally impractical, either that or it didn’t work at all.

Of course she answered that it did work and she felt great. I discussed some psychological phenomena like placebo effect and false memory syndrome. I complained that wins in Scientology couldn’t be quantified and the e-meter just confirmed to people what they already believed. I gave her all the science stuff.

She admitted that Scientology was very subjective and gave me the “what is real for you is what is real,” line. I didn’t stop there, but the conversation just went on like that.

---
 

Tom of Helatrobus

Patron Meritorious
My best argument is against the Golden Age of Tech. Which was pretty effective, I feel, since it seems to be in vogue for Scientologists to blame all the past failing of Scientology on out tech.

“I don’t believe it. What you’re telling me is that LRH never proof read his books before they went to press or checked them after they went to press. He ran the org that published the books; Bridge Publications and New Era. Wasn’t he suppose to be Mr. On the Ball? Mr. KRC? He was in control and responsible, why didn’t he pick up on these flaws in the books - especially when the books are the foundation of Scientology and Dianetics?”

She pointed out the LRH was a man and make mistakes.

“But he was the MAN, wasn’t he? He’s the man that you applaud after every single class. He’s the man which has an office in every org. He’s the man who the Sea Org members try to emulate...I’ve been in the Sea Org and I know that Scientologists see a glow about him - a mystique...”

I love that argument because it puts Scientologists in the position of stating that while LRH was the greatest man who ever lived, he also make a huge stupid mistake of not looking over his own books or picking up on the out tech - thus making him completely incompetent.

I think I got her a bit flustered with that argument.

“Who cares anyway?” she responded , “The tech is better now.”

I pointed out that several people had been declared and RPFed over the Golden Age of Tech.

She responded that anyone who was opposed the Golden Age of Tech was a suppressive who didn’t want conditions to improve.

THE END
 

Kathy (ImOut)

Gold Meritorious Patron
Nice recap of your day.

I really don't get the "terrorist" bit. When does Anon use violence and threats. Yes, I know the CofS keeps spewing "we've been threatened". But where's the proof?

And technically - the CofS is the terrorist group - they use threats all the time - disconnection, declares. And one could say the RPF is "violent", especially the legal definition: Law involving an unlawful exercise or exhibition of force.

The overt does speak the loudest.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
There doesn't have to be any proof. If management says it, it is true.

This applies to any labels at all, from "PTSness/DB/critical/on enemy lines" etc et etc. As a staff member it's more than your life is worth to question it, so it becomes head in the sand time, parrot the party line and most of all DON'T THINK!

Very, very sad.
 

Neo

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks for the report, Tom.

It appears that this line of thinking is really indoctrinated into current Co$ members. Before I recently left I was given the same spiel about what anonymous was like, and how the church has been threatened.

And it's so hard to reason with a Scio. I know, I was one, LOL. Just keep putting the truth there, and hope it starts to permeate their thinking, or latch on to any current doubts they have.

:)
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Great report Tom. You have a lot of patience.

Although it appears that you changed nobody's mind, I bet you did have an effect. It might take weeks or months, but you put some ideas in their heads that would likely have been there in some way anyway. I mean every single Scientologist has doubts at one time or another.

Thanks for a well written, detailed report. I really enjoyed it.
 

asagai

Patron Meritorious
Well done Tom!

Imagine if every org got one protester like that to engage in conversation with "cult" (Judge Latey) members.

Doubt bomb them and one day when their senior is treating them like sh** they will remember your conversation and walk! :happydance:

Snuffy came up with a really good doubt bomb to ask staff "How free are you, really?"
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Thanks for the report, but, two suggestions:

1) Don't picket alone. It can go good, depending on where you are, but, it's asking for trouble. Not because of possible assault, but, because of the liklihood of being accused of 'crimes'.

2) Don't stop picketing; that's their primary goal. There's nothing wrong with engaging in the predictably circular 'non-comm', but, you can do it just as well while walking and showing the public your sign.

Keep up the good work

Zinj
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Tom has produced more proof that the Church is lying when they say enforced disconnection does not exist:

Of course, the threat of being declared suppressive entered the conversation.

“Do you want to be declared?” she asked me.

“I don’t care. No one in my family is a Scientologist, so it wouldn’t effect me.”

“But your family wouldn’t be able to go up the bridge if you were declared.”

“ You mean that they would have to choose between me and Scientology.”

“That’s right.”

“Well, my point is that I shouldn’t be put in that position in the first place. For instance, my whole family is Catholic and I have criticisms of the Vatican, but I can still talk criticize Catholicism and my family will still talk to me.”

“But we’re not like that. We don’t allow people in who actively try to HARM us.”

“But I’m not harming, I’m just criticizing.”
Patty and Christine, of the Office of Special Affairs,
Church of Scientology, Denver Organization.


Good work, Tom.
 

Spork

Patron with Honors
A beautifully written account and a model of reason and patience. Admirable. Stupendous. I hope those people have occasion to think carefully about the discussion, however long it may take them to pluck up the courage to do so.
 

Smitty

Silver Meritorious Patron
Comment to Tom

Tom,
Next time you talk to Patty and Suzanne, tell them that the GAT Patter Drills were invented by Dan Koon, former Int Base Staff in RTRC who blew in in March of 2004.
Tell them that Davey Miscavige signed off on the squirrel tech. Tell them to write Davey for a LRH reference on the GAT Patter Drills for anything other than auditing commands. Note: They will be waiting indefinitely because there are no such references.
Smitty
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Tom,
Next time you talk to Patty and Suzanne, tell them that the GAT Patter Drills were invented by Dan Koon, former Int Base Staff in RTRC who blew in in March of 2004.
Tell them that Davey Miscavige signed off on the squirrel tech. Tell them to write Davey for a LRH reference on the GAT Patter Drills for anything other than auditing commands. Note: They will be waiting indefinitely because there are no such references.
Smitty

Where is Dan Koon? He flies under the radar. He was waaay up there in Int Management. He's blown. But we haven't heard a peep from him.

Is he ok? Does anyone know?
 
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