Tone Scale - fatal flaw in it?

For once, just for once, can we leave BTs out of the conversation?

Rd00

Composite personality isn't necessarily as a result of bts. Most spiritual/psychological traditions which recognize the phenomena don't attribute it to the action of separable spiritual entities. :biggrin:

Interesting that you personally choose to equate the two concepts. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker
 
I had a training day today, learning lots of great stuff about human behaviour that has been peer-reviewed, tested etc etc and one thing the presenter said struck me.

She talked about experiencing two or more emotions at the same time.

And I remembered times that I'd done that - like been super-angry but also sad and maybe a bit scared all at the same time.

Now where does THAT fit into Hubbard's paradigm in the Tone Scale?

He never mentioned it - in fact he insisted that a person would be in ONE tone level only at a time, maybe with a social veneer of another level obscuring the "real" tone.

Yet here I was recalling time in my life (and others' too) that clearly contradicted The Tehc.

Your thoughts? Experiences?

many thoughts on the subject but the plug is about to be pulled on the library computer
 

Balthasar

Patron Meritorious
---snip---

She talked about experiencing two or more emotions at the same time.

And I remembered times that I'd done that - like been super-angry but also sad and maybe a bit scared all at the same time.

Now where does THAT fit into Hubbard's paradigm in the Tone Scale?

He never mentioned it - in fact he insisted that a person would be in ONE tone level only at a time, maybe with a social veneer of another level obscuring the "real" tone.

Yet here I was recalling time in my life (and others' too) that clearly contradicted The Tehc.

Your thoughts? Experiences?

I try to answer this.

You are never disconnected from life surrounding you and it is normal to feel different emotions at the same time. Not ALL emotions you feel are coming from YOU.

Example: have you ever entered a meeting room (with the boss inside) and you suddenly felt “tension” or “thick air”?

Well, somebody might just have gotten sacked and you are going to feel, unless you are completely numb, several emotions:

one coming from yourself, puzzled, “hell, what's going on?”, you might feel the anger from the boss, a bit the shame from the guy who lost the job and finally there are all the mixed feelings from the others.

So you feel different emotions simultaneously and it doesn't mean a thing.

I see it this way:

There is a invisible interconnection with all living things and all people.

We heard we all would be “Thetans”, which is sort of an identity?

But we are so much more than that. We are that which always was, always will be, limitless and without time.

Everything you feel, think, aspire, experience or do, contributes and completes a whole and also has the potential to be experienced through and along these connection thoughts.

And it's these thoughts being extensions of ourself which can be felt by others.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I had a training day today, learning lots of great stuff about human behaviour that has been peer-reviewed, tested etc etc and one thing the presenter said struck me.

She talked about experiencing two or more emotions at the same time.

And I remembered times that I'd done that - like been super-angry but also sad and maybe a bit scared all at the same time.

Now where does THAT fit into Hubbard's paradigm in the Tone Scale?

He never mentioned it - in fact he insisted that a person would be in ONE tone level only at a time, maybe with a social veneer of another level obscuring the "real" tone.

Yet here I was recalling time in my life (and others' too) that clearly contradicted The Tehc.

Your thoughts? Experiences?

My thoughts. Another fundamental flaw with the Tone Scale is that it is a "scale" which introduces the falacious idea that some emotions are "higher" than others.
 
My thoughts. Another fundamental flaw with the Tone Scale is that it is a "scale" which introduces the falacious idea that some emotions are "higher" than others.

Yeah. Where did anyone get the idea that love is higher up than hate!


Mark A. Baker :eyeroll:
p.s. for the irony challenged, the above is an instance of irony. Look it up.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Right. And another thing-- although I think the progression in the tone scale is often ok, often corresponds to what can really happen- sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it seems to me that a person skips a bunch of them on their way "up" as it were.
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
Composite personality isn't necessarily as a result of bts. Most spiritual/psychological traditions which recognize the phenomena don't attribute it to the action of separable spiritual entities. :biggrin:

Interesting that you personally choose to equate the two concepts. :whistling:


Mark A. Baker

Thank you for removing BTs from the conversation.

I really appreciate that nice gesture on your part.

Rd00
 

scooter

Gold Meritorious Patron
Gawd - I write up a "fognition" I had and WW III gets declared here by the usual suspects.:biggrin:

Thanks for all the contributions tho':thumbsup: - it's been interesting to see what others have seen on this subject:yes:

Doing REAL training on human behaviour has been a godsend for someone like me who had 30 years of Hubbardian indoctrination:duh:

I've had the Tone Scale on "hold" for a long time as it never fully gelled for me, especially once I left the cult. So more comments on it would be lovely - helps out a recovering-from-cult-mindf*#k- Scooter.:)

:carryon:
 

Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
Good provacative post, Scoots!

I reject the Tone Scale entirely as it is a frame that restricts the way I see the world. There's no "up" or "down" to moods, emotions, etc. There's only a range of possibilities from "is" to "isn't". Anger is no less important than apathy or exhilaration and is no higher or lower. I am convinced Hubbard was wrong (no! really?) in trying to model emotions on a north-south pole with some emotions/reactions somehow "better" than others. To me, there are just appropriate and inappropriate emotional responses to various internal and external states or causes.

The height of absurdity is when Hubbard plots various tones in incredible detail, eg 0.98 Despair, 0.96 Terror. Where the hell does that come from!!! How about Pity, Shame and Accountable (surely a good thing?) being below body death? What's wrong with shame, then? It's a perfectly good response to certain sorts of situations.

This rant is not directed at you, Scoots, just at the insane stupidity of the Hubbard Tone Scale. (I of course constantly sit at Serenity of Beingness.) :biggrin:
 

Vinaire

Sponsor
From Wikipedia:

Feeling is the nominalization of the verb to feel. The word was first used in the English language to describe the physical sensation of touch through either experience or perception. The word is also used to describe experiences, other than the physical sensation of touch, such as "a feeling of warmth". In psychology, the word is usually reserved for the conscious subjective experience of emotion.

Emotion is a complex psychophysiological experience of an individual's state of mind as interacting with biochemical (internal) and environmental (external) influences. In humans, emotion fundamentally involves "physiological arousal, expressive behaviors, and conscious experience." Emotion is associated with mood, temperament, personality, disposition, and motivation. Motivations direct and energize behavior, while emotions provide the affective component to motivation, positive or negative.

.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Yeah. Where did anyone get the idea that love is higher up than hate!


Mark A. Baker :eyeroll:
p.s. for the irony challenged, the above is an instance of irony. Look it up.



Lol ... well, in some situations it could be 'better' for both/all parties to indulge in hate rather than love ... at least short term.

:nervous:

Unrequited love is hard to live with and suffocating love is even worse ... IOW love isn't always great and hate creates some distance and as long as it isn't overly indulged that can be quite a positive thing.

Love and hate ... both have their place in our lives, as do all emotions and I don't think we need a little scale to look at and decide if it is "OK" to feel something or not (this isn't being addressed at you personally BTW Mark ... I just used your post as it struck me as worth responding to).



 


Lol ... well, in some situations it could be 'better' for both/all parties to indulge in hate rather than love ... at least short term.

:nervous:

Unrequited love is hard to live with and suffocating love is even worse ... IOW love isn't always great and hate creates some distance and as long as it isn't overly indulged that can be quite a positive thing.

Love and hate ... both have their place in our lives, as do all emotions and I don't think we need a little scale to look at and decide if it is "OK" to feel something or not (this isn't being addressed at you personally BTW Mark ... I just used your post as it struck me as worth responding to).




I think I agree. A higher and lower scale leads to avoidance of the lower, denial of it, and people getting into cults trying to become poifect.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
I think I agree. A higher and lower scale leads to avoidance of the lower, denial of it, and people getting into cults trying to become poifect.

Exactly.

Many of us bought the idea that we had to aim to be "uptone and poifect" and it created a lot of people that were deeply distressed and quite vicious ... I have never met so many bitter and unpleasant people as I met in the SO when they finally let their guards down.

Most appeared to be acting, pretending to be H A P P Y ... like caged animals in a circus performing daily for peanuts.

It's so wrong and so unhealthy.

I doubt it affected public scientologists as seriously because they still controlled their own lives (sort of!).



 
Gawd - I write up a "fognition" I had and WW III gets declared here by the usual suspects.:biggrin:

Thanks for all the contributions tho':thumbsup: - it's been interesting to see what others have seen on this subject:yes:

Doing REAL training on human behaviour has been a godsend for someone like me who had 30 years of Hubbardian indoctrination:duh:

I've had the Tone Scale on "hold" for a long time as it never fully gelled for me, especially once I left the cult. So more comments on it would be lovely - helps out a recovering-from-cult-mindf*#k- Scooter.:)

:carryon:

the tone scale never gelled for you?

jeezisss...

i grooved out on the COHE. i still think SOS is the the most valuable thing elron cooked up. or coked up.

just a superb description of basic sanity in the 3.0-4.0 range. a beautiful clarification and codification of natural truths and educated, disciplined truth

serious students of scripture should note how well the COHE and the book of proverbs play off against one another

as to multible emotions... well scoots of course you and i are guys. chicks have no problem with loving and hating the same person

ahh...

dames! ya can't live with 'em... and ya can't kill 'em

you know why women have two sets of lips?

so they can piss and moan at the same time


be back monday
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Yeah. Where did anyone get the idea that love is higher up than hate!


Mark A. Baker :eyeroll:
p.s. for the irony challenged, the above is an instance of irony. Look it up.


Hey Mark, when you have to berate people as "irony challenged" and condescendingly order them to "look it up" it's not irony.

Wogs call that "insulting".
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
She talked about experiencing two or more emotions at the same time.

And I remembered times that I'd done that - like been super-angry but also sad and maybe a bit scared all at the same time.

Now where does THAT fit into Hubbard's paradigm in the Tone Scale?

He never mentioned it - in fact he insisted that a person would be in ONE tone level only at a time, maybe with a social veneer of another level obscuring the "real" tone.


Actually Hubbard's theory on the tone scale included this little sub-theory which tried to explain away some of the many discrepancies. . .

Hubbard claimed that each tone level had (essentially) harmonics of the entire tone scale. In other words you could be at 1.0 (Fear) and the specific emanation of fear could be anywhere from minus-40 up to plus-40. Therefore you could be in a fear that is cheerful (3.5).

It's like the "harmonic" part is a precise "reading" of your energy manifestation, carried out a few more decimal points.

e.g. 1.0035 (1= fear and 3.5 = cheerfulness)

or you could be at a fearful-fear (1.0010)

or an action-tinged fear (1.0020)​

Well, Hubbard had many ways to try and cave people in, so in that sense, the tone scale was a big success insofar as being a handy tool to teach Scientologists how to drive each other down tone just before demanding money. It's called "ruining" the person or "regging".
 

auntpat

Patron with Honors
I never found MAGENTA on the scale. Those are the times when I am sad when someone hurts me (so blue) but also , really PO'd at the same time (seeing red). Therefore MAGENTA.

Aunt Pat
 

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Actually Hubbard's theory on the tone scale included this little sub-theory which tried to explain away some of the many discrepancies. . .

Hubbard claimed that each tone level had (essentially) harmonics of the entire tone scale. In other words you could be at 1.0 (Fear) and the specific emanation of fear could be anywhere from minus-40 up to plus-40. Therefore you could be in a fear that is cheerful (3.5).

It's like the "harmonic" part is a precise "reading" of your energy manifestation, carried out a few more decimal points.

e.g. 1.0035 (1= fear and 3.5 = cheerfulness)

or you could be at a fearful-fear (1.0010)

or an action-tinged fear (1.0020)​

Well, Hubbard had many ways to try and cave people in, so in that sense, the tone scale was a big success insofar as being a handy tool to teach Scientologists how to drive each other down tone just before demanding money. It's called "ruining" the person or "regging".

Because buying a "bridge to total freedom" from a "philosopher" who was also
a "nuclear scientist" and perhaps a "doctor", and who also managed to codify
human emotions by means of decimals would only make sense. Right?! :no:

P.S. Sorry, forgot to mention a "great humanitarian" accolade. :melodramatic:
 
Top