Tony O asks why we believe in Xenu

Smilla

Ordinary Human
It doesn't take much practice to get the meter to read or not read on anything you like. Belief in it's power to plumb the depths of the human mind is 100% pure superstition.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Amazing stuff, isn't it? I have never figured out why Indie/FZ Scientologists like Mark Baker and Terril keep posting super-wacky spin about Scientology "tech" on an Ex-Scientology Message Board. (Cue posts that will recite how everyone is welcome here)

Of course everyone is "welcome" to say what they want. But WHY would a Scientologist WANT to keep talking to people about their "tech" who are (quite noticeably) very happily out of the tech-mind-warp? People who are demonstrably and very vocally averse to L. Ron Hubbard's hoax? Why do they wish to keep selling something to people who have repeatedly said they are not interested in buying it?

It's like a bad dream where Jehovah's Witnesses keep knocking on your door and you tell them to go away--and they knock right away again and deliver the same pitch "in a new unit of time". And every time you slam the door they knock again. LOL

Yup, it's pretty damn noticeable. LOL. So why do they keep knocking?

I guess they didn't notice.

Apparently, not noticing is also a very common characteristic with professional Obnosers.

(Cue defenders of Mark and Terril)

Indeed H.H., a nightmare T.R. 3 ad infinitum. It's comically funny, to continue extolling the virtues of $cientology to people that were already in it. And then explain $cientology as though every person here is clueless and needs to do an amends for Bridge assignment. Or funnier, listen to the Gospel Of Redefinement. The new, kinder, parable, metaphor based Zenu. Hilarious!

actress-replace-5.jpg


Hi, I'm Zenu, an Intergalactic Over-Lord in which I create an incident audited at O.T. 3. I wish to apologize for the ethyl-glycol and nukes, the B.T.'s clustered on you, the 3D implant centers, it was a bad call, I've learned my lesson. Maybe you could help my image by telling people I'm a fairy tale made up by a con man instead of a mandatory step in a cult. I really appreciate your time, thank you.
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
It doesn't take much practice to get the meter to read or not read on anything you like. Belief in it's power to plumb the depths of the human mind is 100% pure superstition.



Let's give Hubbard credit, at least, for removing the com lag out of people's beliefs by giving Scientologists both Instant Reads and Instant Superstition.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Final thought for now, in my opinion saying xenu is a metaphor but ot3 works is like saying you are a Catholic who believes Jesus is a metaphor but you can feel communion clearing your sins and you can taste the blood and flesh of Christ in the wafer and wine!

Not into Catholicism especially, like what Jesus actually said. 91 sayings
per " The Five Gospels".

I also don't see the OT 3 or Xenu story as metaphor. I think you made good points.

There are serious logical problems with this area. If like myself you did
the levels OT 2&3 and got good results, how does one explain this?

The logistics of the OT 3 story are improbable. Transferring millions or billions or whatever to a " prison planet" seems not really on. That they travel in machines that are like DC8 aeroplanes with wings, and presumably 4 turbojets is ....well ridiculous. Space travel does not require wings. As a sci fi fan of long duration one might easily posit a better solurion.

How comes a thetan is immobilised by Glycol?

Contradicts axiom 1 & 2 and thus all:-

"Axiom 1 Life is basically a static.

DEFINITION: A life static has no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in space or in time. It has the ability to postulate and to perceive.

Axiom 2 The static is capable of considerations, postulates and opinions."

Seems to me pretty definite statements that a thetan can't be frozen.

But then as a scientologist one finds these levels, OT 3 etc, enhance ones life.

Most do anyway.

So how come?

Perhaps one might look at the fact that these levels address the spiritual nature of life. This is a long time old and valid philosophical area.

For me these levels work, and did so despite the story making little logical sense. I wondered why? Then I believe it was the poster " Div 6" referred to
this LRH reference which I quote some snippets from below.


===============
Terril park
27th November 2010, 11:22 AM
Would it be useful to rework OT III so as to run explosions in
a better or simpler form? Some earlier comments and quotes of mine .



--------------------
From pab 12:-

"The explosion is apparently a very definite basis in all engrams and,
for our purposes here, can be considered to be basicbasic. And it could be remarked with this PAB that basicbasic for all cases has been discovered and is being delivered into your hands to be run,"

"What exactly is the cycle of the explosion? One gets the preclear to
get nothingness, then a growing expanse of whiteness, then turn the whiteness black, have the black dwindle and get nothingness again. You will readily see the similarity of this to Black and White Processing and, indeed this is the furthest extension of Black and White Processing but is many times more effective and usefull."

"....It does not matter how poorly the preclear runs this. It does not matter if the nearest approach to whiteness is simply the idea that something might be white if he could see it"

Note that there was a whole book dedicated to black and white processing, Scn 8-80

PAB 12 recomends running explosions between each step of the Six Steps to Self-Auditing.

Incident 1 From OT 3 :-

"1 Patter: LOUD SNAP, WAVES OF LIGHT, HORSES DRAWING
CHARIOT RIGHT TO LEFT, CHERUB COMES OUT,
BLOWS HORN, COMES CLOSE, SHATTERING
SERIES OF SNAPS, CHERUB FADES,
RETREATS, BLACK MASS
IS DUMPED ON THE THETAN."

Note that this involves whiteness [ waves of light] and blackness
[ black mass]. Sound effects are added which seems appropriate for an explosion.

Also note that inc 2 involves lots of explosions. So if the theory of this PAB is correct entities, single unit beings, get run on explosions as much as needed.
__________________
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Hubbard's warning was with regard to attempts at self-auditing the story without proper set-ups. The evidence is that he believed that would lead to freewheeling (uncontrolled restimulation) and all the attendant unpleasantness described. The story accordingly could be seen as a story without causing such dire circumstances.

Not everyone who has experience with auditing on ot iii necessarily accepts hubbard's beliefs about it as true.

The why he proposed to do such a film is uncertain as he never actually said and he is now dead. However, it is possible, and even likely, that he believed he could create a partial restimulation of the event among the general population as a means of increasing general interest in auditing among the general population. The use of the volcano as the cover image for dianetics was intended to serve a similar purpose.

Deliberate restimulation or button pushing is a common marketing technique for goods & services in the economy as well. Practically every commercial & advertisement is based on attempting to manipulate people in order to increase sales of products.


Mark A. Baker

One might add all book covers were initially about restim. Made no sense to me. Could see no relevance.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Excerpts from Cowboy:

"Look, I don't look at it as that complicated. The whole tech story, well, 90% of it, was technical rubbish... good story, made sense, didn't work out with results. I don't have any faith in the vast majority of Scn teachings. Especially the upper level stuff. Hubbard could bedazzle one with technical details, but, seeing through the razamataz led one to see that it was all just window dressing.

"I think people are vulnerable to suggestion. I think people want to become more spiritual. I think people want to get closer to God. I think people want to help. But those common denominators, along with the technical window dressing, led many people to really fail to use critical analysis in assessment of techniques and their results.

"Look, at one point I'd read almost everything he'd written in any area of tech especially. I don't understand why people here continue to try to define things using Scn terms, thought processes, etc. I'm not saying there wasn't some good, even in the policy areas, but the complicated principles that might sound good on paper didn't add up...

"...With the exception of certain fundamentals which I've talked about earlier, communication, study tech, etc. I don't think Scn ever worked.

"By work I mean give the result which it promised.

"Got wins, cogs, feel goods, smiles, reassurances, withholds off.... But I define working by the simple question of did it produce what it promised. What there ever an OT 3? An OT 8? A clear? A power grad? Go back and read the definition of those steps. It doesn't say that you'd feel good and get some cogs. Each level listed life changing overwhelmingly positive results, and I never, ever, under any circumstances saw that. And I knew the highest levels of auditing and the results.... and the troubles when the OTs would explain in session their disappointment with the results...

"That, in a nutshell, was Hubbard. So convinced that he could do miracles he didn't spend the time needed to see he wasn't creating miracles...

"I'm not saying there never was a good result from Scn. I'm saying the VFP that we all shot for in going up the bridge never, ever occured, in anyone. Period. There never was a clear. There never was an OT. In fact I could more easily make the argument that there was frequently bad effects of trying Scn counseling to reach spiritual improvement.

"Sorry if my candor offends."
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

I also don't see the OT 3 or Xenu story as metaphor. I think you made good points.

Sounds good, but wait.... Here comes the spin... The 'PAB 12'-angle.

--------------------
From pab 12:-

"The explosion is apparently a very definite basis in all engrams and,
for our purposes here, can be considered to be basicbasic. And it could be remarked with this PAB that basicbasic for all cases has been discovered and is being delivered into your hands to be run,"

"What exactly is the cycle of the explosion? One gets the preclear to
get nothingness, then a growing expanse of whiteness, then turn the whiteness black, have the black dwindle and get nothingness again. You will readily see the similarity of this to Black and White Processing and, indeed this is the furthest extension of Black and White Processing but is many times more effective and usefull."

"....It does not matter how poorly the preclear runs this. It does not matter if the nearest approach to whiteness is simply the idea that something might be white if he could see it"

Note that there was a whole book dedicated to black and white processing, Scn 8-80

PAB 12 recomends running explosions between each step of the Six Steps to Self-Auditing.

snip


1. I think this idea of explosions being so central to life is bananas.

2. I think your love, Terril, for the connection between PAB 12 and OT3 - I know OT3 has explosions in it - is bananas too.

3. Since OT3 is bananas anyway, that makes any such genuine relationship bananas cubed.

Paul
 
Not into Catholicism especially, like what Jesus actually said. 91 sayings
per " The Five Gospels".

I also don't see the OT 3 or Xenu story as metaphor. I think you made good points.

There are serious logical problems with this area. If like myself you did
the levels OT 2&3 and got good results, how does one explain this?

The logistics of the OT 3 story are improbable. Transferring millions or billions or whatever to a " prison planet" seems not really on. That they travel in machines that are like DC8 aeroplanes with wings, and presumably 4 turbojets is ....well ridiculous. Space travel does not require wings. As a sci fi fan of long duration one might easily posit a better solurion.

How comes a thetan is immobilised by Glycol?

Contradicts axiom 1 & 2 and thus all:-

"Axiom 1 Life is basically a static.

DEFINITION: A life static has no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in space or in time. It has the ability to postulate and to perceive.

Axiom 2 The static is capable of considerations, postulates and opinions."

Seems to me pretty definite statements that a thetan can't be frozen.

But then as a scientologist one finds these levels, OT 3 etc, enhance ones life.

Most do anyway.

So how come?

Perhaps one might look at the fact that these levels address the spiritual nature of life. This is a long time old and valid philosophical area.

For me these levels work, and did so despite the story making little logical sense. I wondered why? Then I believe it was the poster " Div 6" referred to
this LRH reference which I quote some snippets from below.


===============
Terril park
27th November 2010, 11:22 AM
Would it be useful to rework OT III so as to run explosions in
a better or simpler form? Some earlier comments and quotes of mine .



--------------------
From pab 12:-

"The explosion is apparently a very definite basis in all engrams and,
for our purposes here, can be considered to be basicbasic. And it could be remarked with this PAB that basicbasic for all cases has been discovered and is being delivered into your hands to be run,"

"What exactly is the cycle of the explosion? One gets the preclear to
get nothingness, then a growing expanse of whiteness, then turn the whiteness black, have the black dwindle and get nothingness again. You will readily see the similarity of this to Black and White Processing and, indeed this is the furthest extension of Black and White Processing but is many times more effective and usefull."

"....It does not matter how poorly the preclear runs this. It does not matter if the nearest approach to whiteness is simply the idea that something might be white if he could see it"

Note that there was a whole book dedicated to black and white processing, Scn 8-80

PAB 12 recomends running explosions between each step of the Six Steps to Self-Auditing.

Incident 1 From OT 3 :-

"1 Patter: LOUD SNAP, WAVES OF LIGHT, HORSES DRAWING
CHARIOT RIGHT TO LEFT, CHERUB COMES OUT,
BLOWS HORN, COMES CLOSE, SHATTERING
SERIES OF SNAPS, CHERUB FADES,
RETREATS, BLACK MASS
IS DUMPED ON THE THETAN."

Note that this involves whiteness [ waves of light] and blackness
[ black mass]. Sound effects are added which seems appropriate for an explosion.

Also note that inc 2 involves lots of explosions. So if the theory of this PAB is correct entities, single unit beings, get run on explosions as much as needed.
__________________

Me thinks you are NUTS! :storm:
 

Veda

Sponsor
You want to explain how quoting tech vols is spin?

Read Paul (Dulloldfart's) response above.

People don't come to ESMB to be "handled" by Scientologists.

They come here to honestly communicate and be communicated with. Try it. You'll like it. :)
 

Gib

Crusader
Let's give Hubbard credit, at least, for removing the com lag out of people's beliefs by giving Scientologists both Instant Reads and Instant Superstition.


Can the pc ever say, like during a sec check, I don't believe that was an instant read, and thus why are you asking me?

Why does the pc have so much trust in the auditor? Shoot, the auditor, under sec checking, could be saying there is an instant read, and yet there is not one, but the pc believes there is one.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
People post in accordance with their respective frames of reference. That's all it is. Someone may believe something you don't think is true- and maybe they truly are wrong- and discuss it, but that does not make it spin.

There are billions of people in the world who lead responsible lives, pay taxes, etc, but who also believe some very odd things.

I'm not saying these things can't or shouldn't be debated. IMO, anyone who comes to a critical forum, even a nice one like this, can expect to have their views challenged and discussed. (though that applies to those of critical inclination, too) But the personalized commentary doesn't contribute to any debate.

One can be pretty scathing and indicate great disagreement with matters Scientological without the negative personalization. Truefax.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Terril, I think you're reaching on the PAB 12 thing. I really don't see that it is relevant other than being a reason for clustering. Also him saying an explosion is basic basic is invented bullshit on his part.

BTW, Ken Ogger's Super Scio has a much more complete write-up on Inc I.

You say that you did OT 2&3 twice.

In running BTs through Inc II at any time did you experience the incident they were running? If so, can you give details of what you perceived?

You said you had gains. What gains did OT 3 give you?

(Those of you that think it's all nuts, haha, FINE, but this discussion can be quite fun.)
 

Gib

Crusader
Can the pc ever say, like during a sec check, I don't believe that was an instant read, and thus why are you asking me?

Why does the pc have so much trust in the auditor? Shoot, the auditor, under sec checking, could be saying there is an instant read, and yet there is not one, but the pc believes there is one.

And when the auditor says my needle is floating, why as a pc, why can't I see this so I have Certainty as well?
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Can the pc ever say, like during a sec check, I don't believe that was an instant read, and thus why are you asking me?

Why does the pc have so much trust in the auditor? Shoot, the auditor, under sec checking, could be saying there is an instant read, and yet there is not one, but the pc believes there is one.

Yes, the PC can do that. The proper thing would be for the auditor to check for a false read. That taken care of, then the question would be re-checked if it still was reading then an answer would be expected...

Add: If the auditor can't properly read a meter then you are FUCKED and if that was your suspicion then you should say so to the auditor AND examiner and let the C/S have it checked into.
 
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PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
And when the auditor says my needle is floating, why as a pc, why can't I see this so I have Certainty as well?

You shouldn't need to see a meter to tell you that!

You should be a happy camper. If not then the auditor didn't know what he was doing, probably had the cans plugged into his iPod or sumpin...
 
Lol. Tech volumes are the work of a lying con man.

Who's going to take that seriously?

Torah was written by xenophobic priestly bureaucrats. Same question.


Mark A. Baker
p.s. Much of the Tech volumes was actually written by Hubbard associates. Hubbard just claimed the credit.
 

SpecialFrog

Silver Meritorious Patron
There are serious logical problems with this area. If like myself you did the levels OT 2&3 and got good results, how does one explain this?

I dont think anyone is arguing that the brain doesn't have a significant ability to affect the rest of the body.

In the right context, placebos can have an effect on body chemistry that mirrors opiates so closely that administering a real opiate blocker makes the pain come back.

Unless your "good results" involve defying the laws of physics I see no reason to assume they are mutually exclusive with the OT levels being essentially made up nonsense.

A good trial would be to modify the instructions slightly and see if people report the same kind of results.
 
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