Too Much Cruelty
- Thread starter Alanzo
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Anonycat
Crusader
Ooh Baby!
If you like the Photoshopped tattoo, download it. She put a hit out on it, and it gets auto-deleted from image hosting sites pretty quickly.
LA SCN
NOT drinking the kool-aid
However titless tats would be a real letdown
Ooh Baby!
freethinker
Sponsor
If we packed up ESMB and just walked off, would the conflict end with the CO$?
Would the conflict actually end?
No, they would still be abusive.
There are times you have to fight to have peace.
Isn't that what Mosey and Laura De Cresenzo are doing?
Would the conflict actually end?
No, they would still be abusive.
There are times you have to fight to have peace.
Isn't that what Mosey and Laura De Cresenzo are doing?
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
Hm. Shows more nudity (though still sufficiently discreet) than my old avatar. Though it is a nicer pic.
Purple Rain
Crusader
Mosey and Laura are not ESMB, but if they did stop their lawsuits, then, yes, those particular conflicts would be ended, and that certainly is one way of ending that kind of conflict - see Debbie Cook etc. I never said it was always the best way.
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
I'll take this one phrase from that one sentence in the posts I wrote here and state that:
If people are allowed to write posts that are nothing but insults now, and there is no content to these posts but a direct attack on another member of the board's character or some other ridicule or put-down. then there's too much cruelty on this board - even if someone in "copping an attitude".
You yourself have written this will not be tolerated, and it has been posted over and over, and it even exists as a "sticky"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Somewhere along the way, the sentiment of Emma's "Hope for this Board" seems to have been lost or forgotten. Mick and I would like to reiterate the wisdom expressed in Emma's Hope, and let you know that we plan on using it as a "guiding light" for our moderation, as we believe it was originally intended.
What this means is that there will be a strengthened effort made on the part of the staff to end personal attacks on and insults made to people, no matter how unpopular their ideas may be. You are free to attack the ideas, but not the holder of those ideas. We also ask that you refrain from deliberately provoking these types of abuse.
If you think you might be one of those people that this message is directed toward, you might want to examine your own posting style; however this message is a general notice to all who post here.
This courtesy will also extend to people who are not members here (LRH and DM are the only exceptions), for the simple reason that they can still read and be hurt by the things posted about them even if they're not members. Why make people feel bad unnecessarily?
Attack ideas and actions = OK.
Attack people = Not OK.
We do not want ESMB to have a reputation of being a "mean board" - especially when that was the primary reason for Emma forming the board to begin with, because the other venues at the time were too vicious.
Think of what a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything, and no one were allowed to hold any different ideas. Think of how little progress would be made, both in our own thinking and in new methods of doing things. Why, it would almost be like being in a .... well.... a cult.
Please read this post, originally made in January 2007, and incorporate it into your mental guidelines when you post here at ESMB. We hesitate to use the built-in infraction system, but if we feel we must, we will. This applies to everyone.
I'm writing this to clarify for all (including myself) what this board is for.
As an ex Scientologist, I felt like there was no place where I could truly be myself. I felt pressured to conform to a certain set of "rules" about how to think about Scientology & my experience inside Scientology. I was sick of getting abused for defending ex's who found even a glimmer of goodness in Scientology. I was upset that there seemed to be no safe place for ex's to go to share their experiences, both good and bad.
Over the last 3 weeks or so I've been given a lot of advice about what I should and shouldn't do and who I should and shouldn't have on the board. Some want it this way, and some want it that way. Others want it a some other way.
Some say I should have had all this sorted out before I launched the board. Maybe I should have. Some complain that the rules seem to be forming as we go along. I can't deny there is an element of that as I learn what people want and need.
Maybe my idea of just providing a place for ex's to talk was too simple. I don't think it was, but perhaps it need a further defining.
What this board is:
A place where ex scientologists and interested general public can get together to discuss various experiences in Scientology.
A place where where ex's and non ex's can mingle and chat and get to know how the other half think and live.
A place to learn from each other.
A place to support each other.
A place to swap ideas and suggestions.
A place to civilly debate issues so that other viewpoints can be offered and tossed around and horizons can be broadened.
A place to be allowed to defend your position and not apologise for it, yet at the same time allow others to have their own.
A place that people feel safe to expose the abuses of this harmful cult, so the true story can be told.
A place where newly "out" Scientologists can come and be heard and learn and be supported through a really tough period in their lives.
A place to make people laugh and have some fun and to not take it all so seriously.
A place to expose the traps and pitfalls in returning to a "normal" existance, and to learn some tips and helpful suggestions in making this transition.
What this board isn't:
A vehicle to exact verbal revenge on those who have harmed us both inside and outside of Scientology. By that I mean continuing to trade insults & flame wars that are a hang over from past relationships, fueds from other messageboards, chat channels etc.
A place to blame and crucify others for what happened to you. Over time there are going to be people who find other ex members who they feel were responsible for some cruelty that was bestowed on them. Whilst this is understandable, and needs to be addressed, it needs to be understood that EVERYONE did things in Scientology of which they are not proud.
A place to ridicule "believers". People find their way out of the Scientology mindset at different speeds and to different degrees. What they need is understanding, not to be fobbed off and called a "stoopid clam" etc.
________________________________________
I believe anyone who has been exposed to Scientology for any length of time has had damage done. None of us are perfect, and I doubt any of us would be here if we were all 100% "recovered".
My hope is that this group of misfits can do some good, for ourselves and for each other.
I know there will be differing opinions. I know tempers will flare. I know people will say things they don't necessarily mean. All I ask is that you think before you type and ask yourself if what you are about to "submit" is going to cause more harm than good.
You don't need to like everybody on this board. That would be impossible. It is no different in the workplace or even in family life. But in these situations a "professional" or cordial relationship is established instead. I hope these same social rules can be adopted here.
I've been criticized for wanting to turn this into a "knitting club" or "afternoon tea party". I think that is bullshit. I don't believe that civility automatically means softness or sensorship. I believe that MORE exposure of the harms of Scientology can be achieved if the atmosphere is civil and friendly rather than one of fear. In other words, I don't want to play "momma", handling spats between people. This is not supposed to be a sandpit. If you want to play the flaming game for the mere sake of flaming, then alt.religion.scientology may be the place for you.
I don't know exactly what the stats are of people (staff & public) blowing Scientology. But I know there are 1000s and 1000s of people who will be looking for a place like this to help them. When they do start to look, I hope they will find that this board is designed for them. A friendly, civil, intelligent crowd who have had years of experience in and out of Scientology waiting to welcome them.
Thanks,
Emma
So if I say that there is too much cruelty on this board, I am specifically referring to posts that are nothing but insults of other posters.
And I am saying nothing that has not been said before as above, even by you.
I am agreeing with you that anyone who posts a message to another member that is nothing but an insult should have that post deleted, and if it continues, warned or banned.
It simply isn't, and should not be, a matter of debate.
No one needs to ask anyone's permission, or start a thread on it.
It should be simply a matter of unapologetic action on the part of the moderators.
And that's all.
But even if things continue like they have and posters are allowed to blatantly insult other members, then I'm still not going to do it myself to anyone. And that is part of what I am saying in this thread, too.No one needs to ask anyone's permission, or start a thread on it.
It should be simply a matter of unapologetic action on the part of the moderators.
And that's all.
I have no idea why you would take exception to this right now. I'm sorry that you have.
But this is what I have to say on it.
And this is all I have to say on it.
And now, on this subject regarding others' posts than his own, and on moderation here on ESMB, Alanzo is over and out.
Alanzo
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Agreed!
But on that point about "insults are not as common as they once were"….are you calling me downstat?
Insulting!
freethinker
Sponsor
It doesn't end the conflict because the conflict is what the CO$ does that caused them to sue so the conflict doesn't end, it is just endured.
For a conflict to end their has to be agreement to both sides or the complete obliteration of one side.
The latter is the only way the CO$ will go down but you will have the conflict of the Indies saying you have to keep the non-specifically defined "good bits", so the conflict does not end, it just changes form.
For a conflict to end their has to be agreement to both sides or the complete obliteration of one side.
The latter is the only way the CO$ will go down but you will have the conflict of the Indies saying you have to keep the non-specifically defined "good bits", so the conflict does not end, it just changes form.
Purple Rain
Crusader
I'll take this one phrase from that one sentence in the posts I wrote here and state that:
If people are allowed to write posts that are nothing but insults now, and there is no content to these posts but a direct attack on another member of the board's character or some other ridicule or put-down. then there's too much cruelty on this board - even if someone in "copping an attitude".
You yourself have written this will not be tolerated, and it has been posted over and over, and it even exists as a "sticky"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Somewhere along the way, the sentiment of Emma's "Hope for this Board" seems to have been lost or forgotten. Mick and I would like to reiterate the wisdom expressed in Emma's Hope, and let you know that we plan on using it as a "guiding light" for our moderation, as we believe it was originally intended.
What this means is that there will be a strengthened effort made on the part of the staff to end personal attacks on and insults made to people, no matter how unpopular their ideas may be. You are free to attack the ideas, but not the holder of those ideas. We also ask that you refrain from deliberately provoking these types of abuse.
If you think you might be one of those people that this message is directed toward, you might want to examine your own posting style; however this message is a general notice to all who post here.
This courtesy will also extend to people who are not members here (LRH and DM are the only exceptions), for the simple reason that they can still read and be hurt by the things posted about them even if they're not members. Why make people feel bad unnecessarily?
Attack ideas and actions = OK.
Attack people = Not OK.
We do not want ESMB to have a reputation of being a "mean board" - especially when that was the primary reason for Emma forming the board to begin with, because the other venues at the time were too vicious.
Think of what a boring world it would be if everyone agreed on everything, and no one were allowed to hold any different ideas. Think of how little progress would be made, both in our own thinking and in new methods of doing things. Why, it would almost be like being in a .... well.... a cult.
Please read this post, originally made in January 2007, and incorporate it into your mental guidelines when you post here at ESMB. We hesitate to use the built-in infraction system, but if we feel we must, we will. This applies to everyone.
Originally Posted by Emma
I'm writing this to clarify for all (including myself) what this board is for.
As an ex Scientologist, I felt like there was no place where I could truly be myself. I felt pressured to conform to a certain set of "rules" about how to think about Scientology & my experience inside Scientology. I was sick of getting abused for defending ex's who found even a glimmer of goodness in Scientology. I was upset that there seemed to be no safe place for ex's to go to share their experiences, both good and bad.
Over the last 3 weeks or so I've been given a lot of advice about what I should and shouldn't do and who I should and shouldn't have on the board. Some want it this way, and some want it that way. Others want it a some other way.
Some say I should have had all this sorted out before I launched the board. Maybe I should have. Some complain that the rules seem to be forming as we go along. I can't deny there is an element of that as I learn what people want and need.
Maybe my idea of just providing a place for ex's to talk was too simple. I don't think it was, but perhaps it need a further defining.
What this board is:
A place where ex scientologists and interested general public can get together to discuss various experiences in Scientology.
A place where where ex's and non ex's can mingle and chat and get to know how the other half think and live.
A place to learn from each other.
A place to support each other.
A place to swap ideas and suggestions.
A place to civilly debate issues so that other viewpoints can be offered and tossed around and horizons can be broadened.
A place to be allowed to defend your position and not apologise for it, yet at the same time allow others to have their own.
A place that people feel safe to expose the abuses of this harmful cult, so the true story can be told.
A place where newly "out" Scientologists can come and be heard and learn and be supported through a really tough period in their lives.
A place to make people laugh and have some fun and to not take it all so seriously.
A place to expose the traps and pitfalls in returning to a "normal" existance, and to learn some tips and helpful suggestions in making this transition.
What this board isn't:
A vehicle to exact verbal revenge on those who have harmed us both inside and outside of Scientology. By that I mean continuing to trade insults & flame wars that are a hang over from past relationships, fueds from other messageboards, chat channels etc.
A place to blame and crucify others for what happened to you. Over time there are going to be people who find other ex members who they feel were responsible for some cruelty that was bestowed on them. Whilst this is understandable, and needs to be addressed, it needs to be understood that EVERYONE did things in Scientology of which they are not proud.
A place to ridicule "believers". People find their way out of the Scientology mindset at different speeds and to different degrees. What they need is understanding, not to be fobbed off and called a "stoopid clam" etc.
________________________________________
I believe anyone who has been exposed to Scientology for any length of time has had damage done. None of us are perfect, and I doubt any of us would be here if we were all 100% "recovered".
My hope is that this group of misfits can do some good, for ourselves and for each other.
I know there will be differing opinions. I know tempers will flare. I know people will say things they don't necessarily mean. All I ask is that you think before you type and ask yourself if what you are about to "submit" is going to cause more harm than good.
You don't need to like everybody on this board. That would be impossible. It is no different in the workplace or even in family life. But in these situations a "professional" or cordial relationship is established instead. I hope these same social rules can be adopted here.
I've been criticized for wanting to turn this into a "knitting club" or "afternoon tea party". I think that is bullshit. I don't believe that civility automatically means softness or sensorship. I believe that MORE exposure of the harms of Scientology can be achieved if the atmosphere is civil and friendly rather than one of fear. In other words, I don't want to play "momma", handling spats between people. This is not supposed to be a sandpit. If you want to play the flaming game for the mere sake of flaming, then alt.religion.scientology may be the place for you.
I don't know exactly what the stats are of people (staff & public) blowing Scientology. But I know there are 1000s and 1000s of people who will be looking for a place like this to help them. When they do start to look, I hope they will find that this board is designed for them. A friendly, civil, intelligent crowd who have had years of experience in and out of Scientology waiting to welcome them.
Thanks,
Emma
So if I say that there is too much cruelty on this board, I am specifically referring to posts that are nothing but insults of other posters.
And I am saying nothing that has not been said before as above, even by you.
I am agreeing with you that anyone who posts a message to another member that is nothing but an insult should have that post deleted, and if it continues, warned or banned.
It simply isn't, and should not be, a matter of debate.But even if things continue like they have and posters are allowed to blatantly insult other members, then I'm still not going to do it myself to anyone. And that is part of what I am saying in this thread, too.
No one needs to ask anyone's permission, or start a thread on it.
It should be simply a matter of unapologetic action on the part of the moderators.
And that's all.
I have no idea why you would take exception to this right now. I'm sorry that you have.
But this is what I have to say on it.
And this is all I have to say on it.
And now, on this subject regarding others' posts than his own, and on moderation here on ESMB, Alanzo is over and out.
Alanzo
It's because you characterise our board as "cruel" and we find that insulting and don't see it that way. Whilst we all recognise that ad homs occur, if it happens you should report the post and bring it to the moderators' attention. I can assure you they will take it seriously, even if it is something fairly innocuous by insult standards. There are some posts here that have been directed at you that I have thought would be exceedingly hurtful if they had been addressed to me, and maybe I am just over-sensitive or maybe you are, and maybe I should have reported those, but in any case I encourage you to do so.
The board is a lovely place for most - probably not for everyone - and of course we can always do better as a community, but basically saying our community is shite is not endearing and results in the sorts of posts that you find hurtful. I'm not writing this to be horrible but to explain to you what the problem is, since by your own admission you do have a bit of difficulty with emotional intelligence or whatever it was, so please take this in the spirit it's written as trying to be helpful, Alanzo.
Panda Termint
Cabal Of One
This thread: unbelievable!
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
I am not characterizing the board as cruel.
I am very exact about what I am saying.
Please look:
So if I say that there is too much cruelty on this board, I am specifically referring to posts that are nothing but insults of other posters.
And I am saying nothing that has not been said before as above, even by you.
I am agreeing with you that anyone who posts a message to another member that is nothing but an insult should have that post deleted, and if it continues, warned or banned.
Alanzo
Alanzo
Bardo Tulpa
This thread: unbelievable!
I agree.
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
ESMB changed and yet remained the same
ESMB is not nicer than it was two years ago. It is not meaner than it was two years ago. It's different, because the chemistry caused by changing membership is not the same. That's dynamic and normal.
There are some truly unpleasant and toxic people who were here some years ago who aren't here now. There are some lovely people who were here before who are gone and there are some great people who are still here and some mean people who are here.
It's a message board. It was a mix before and always will be a mix. That's the way these things are.
There are message boards that change greatly in character and type of demographic to the point where they're more civil or far less so. I don't think that's what's happened here, though. But it does have a different chemistry as people have left and other ones arrived.
ESMB is not nicer than it was two years ago. It is not meaner than it was two years ago. It's different, because the chemistry caused by changing membership is not the same. That's dynamic and normal.
There are some truly unpleasant and toxic people who were here some years ago who aren't here now. There are some lovely people who were here before who are gone and there are some great people who are still here and some mean people who are here.
It's a message board. It was a mix before and always will be a mix. That's the way these things are.
There are message boards that change greatly in character and type of demographic to the point where they're more civil or far less so. I don't think that's what's happened here, though. But it does have a different chemistry as people have left and other ones arrived.
Alanzo, I haven't taken offense at your post. It's more that I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I know people hate analogies but I'm going to use one.
Let's say you are trying to teach a classroom full of kids & you start to notice that a slackness for handing in homework has crept into the group. So you lightly suggest that perhaps these kids should be handing in their homework. All hell breaks loose! The kids start acusing you of being a dictator, of trying to mold their thoughts, of hiding your true intentions, they throw pencils & sticks & tomatoes at you as you hide behind your desk trying to avoid getting too badly injured.
Then a couple of years later some kid comes up to you and says "I flunked out of school. Might not have happened if you'd made us do our homework. I think you should be forceful in ensuring kids do their homework or you'll wreck them". You can't believe it. The kid who is saying this to you is the one who made the biggest fuss, who threw the biggest tomatoes & the one who tried to get everyone believing you were hiding your true evil intentions.
Do you laugh or cry Alanzo?
I know people hate analogies but I'm going to use one.
Let's say you are trying to teach a classroom full of kids & you start to notice that a slackness for handing in homework has crept into the group. So you lightly suggest that perhaps these kids should be handing in their homework. All hell breaks loose! The kids start acusing you of being a dictator, of trying to mold their thoughts, of hiding your true intentions, they throw pencils & sticks & tomatoes at you as you hide behind your desk trying to avoid getting too badly injured.
Then a couple of years later some kid comes up to you and says "I flunked out of school. Might not have happened if you'd made us do our homework. I think you should be forceful in ensuring kids do their homework or you'll wreck them". You can't believe it. The kid who is saying this to you is the one who made the biggest fuss, who threw the biggest tomatoes & the one who tried to get everyone believing you were hiding your true evil intentions.
Do you laugh or cry Alanzo?
Anonycat
Crusader
So I am not allowed to say that this post sucks.
clamicide
Gold Meritorious Patron
and herein lies the rub... no you could NOT be put to death within the cult, but going against the grain of things and being declared and not going OT left you threatened with the unimaginable pain and such that went with that for eons or whatever (not going to look it up... meh).
I'm ok with being nice, and usually do try that, but I've also come to the conclusion that when someone is being a total dick to me, it actually tends to work out better if I call upon my inner bitch... example being... kind of crazy dude being weird and telling me he loved me (heard him say it to the prior 3 females he met.. had NOTHING to do with me... he just was being whatever level of crazy). I kind of brushed him off, but then he made the mistake of laying his hands on me. I freaking went "OFF". I pretty much yelled at the top of my lungs to NEVER put his hands on me or I would FUCK HIM UP.... the message I think he got was that I was more insane than he was, and he freaking ran with his tail between his legs. (really wasn't feeling crazy, but felt that was what was needed to stop him doing the stuff he did to me and the other women he had been imposing upon.... )
Now, it was pretty much an (unpaid) acting gig for me (lol), but I really think there are times when kindness isn't the answer. I don't feel a lot of joy that I wound up with this philosophy, but that's where I am.
And, I think in some ways, it does make me bend over even more backward, and try to be even kinder when possible... because I know that now, I can be capable of being one of the most cold-hearted bitches if needed... and so, knowing that I can do that?, I seriously want to give folks every last benefit of the doubt....
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
You gotta be real careful when you say stuff like that. The distinction- no matter how many times you explain, no matter how well you explain- is often lost on people.
I had an experience some months ago. I said that the majority of critics were NOT a certain way. And I went on to use a scathing phrase. (shrugs) Well, yay. The majority of them aren't like that, I said. Man, I got buggered over a roasting fire. The more I tried to explain, even tried to apologize, the more I got screamed at. One person who eagerly jumped on the bandwagon had, just a couple months before that, PMd me for help which I gave, unconditionally and openheartedly. Another person who did that was someone with whom I thought I'd mended fences, and had received many friendly PMs from him for like two or three years prior.
So when a contributor says, hey, you know, there could be this or that, but it's not most of you, the board is fine or whatever it is- that part where you explain and qualify and try to clarify is going to get disregarded by some.
My advice would be not to do it. Not because you shouldn't feel like you do but sometimes it's better to keep things discreet and pleasant and that way you can sit down and not need rectal surgery.
Purple Rain
Crusader
Just keep posting kindly and I think things will improve for you over time, I really do.
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