Too Much Cruelty

[JustSheila]

From my experience with drug addicts: If you help them too early, you're doing it wrong and the result of offering them a nice cushion to land on will inevitably be: They learn that there will always be a nice cushion to land on and therefore they see no need to change anything. This kind of help is not worthless, it's worse, because it makes the problem worse.

The right kind of help would be: Let them fall, let them crash hard, let them burst into a thousand pieces, let them see, know and experience that they have nowhere to go and only then will they be ready to give you a chance to help them and only then you can pick up the pieces, clean them up and firmly put them back together.

I think the same stuff applies to Alanzo. As long as he finds supporters and admirers, nothing will change because HE doesn't feel the need to change his ways.

tl;dr:
IMO, you're doing him a big disservice ATM. What did he do to you do deserve that?

Wait - WHAT?

MrNobody, I don't question that you may be a good addiction counsellor, harsh though your treatment method may be. Certainly some addicts need to hit bottom to get better. Others just die. Some smokers go cold turkey, but a larger percentage quit by gradually cutting back using nicotine aids.

People are different. But again, you may be a very good addiction counsellor. That's not my main problem with what you wrote.

What's wrong with what you wrote is that you stated on a public forum an assumption that Alanzo is an addict without a shred of evidence. That's just a whole lot of labelling without the facts to support it against a person who has spent years helping others out of the cult and who still writes prolifically on other sites.

You don't know a thing about Alanzo's personal life, you don't know him personally, and I doubt that you are trained as a clinical psychologist to make that judgement, either.

The only things any of us know as facts are:

1) Alanzo came back to ESMB for some reason.
2) Alanzo communicated poorly when he came back so people are still wondering about #1.
3) Alanzo communicates well on other sites.

That's it. Poor communication doesn't mean diddly squat as to motives or any mental health issues.

The majority of normal people actually do have trouble communicating about issues that they find emotionally upsetting. Some more than others.

Personally, I wish Alanzo well and hope he gets back on his feet writing on other sites soon. He's good at what he does, he's smart and often has terrific insight. I also hope he resolves whatever he came here for.

I also hope this thread gets closed soon.

 

[BardoThodol]

Wait - WHAT?

MrNobody, I don't question that you may be a good addiction counsellor, harsh though your treatment method may be. Certainly some addicts need to hit bottom to get better. Others just die. Some smokers go cold turkey, but a larger percentage quit by gradually cutting back using nicotine aids.

People are different. But again, you may be a very good addiction counsellor. That's not my main problem with what you wrote.

What's wrong with what you wrote is that you stated on a public forum an assumption that Alanzo is an addict without a shred of evidence. That's just a whole lot of labelling without the facts to support it against a person who has spent years helping others out of the cult and who still writes prolifically on other sites.

You don't know a thing about Alanzo's personal life, you don't know him personally, and I doubt that you are trained as a clinical psychologist to make that judgement, either.

The only things any of us know as facts are:

1) Alanzo came back to ESMB for some reason.
2) Alanzo communicated poorly when he came back so people are still wondering about #1.
3) Alanzo communicates well on other sites.

That's it. Poor communication doesn't mean diddly squat as to motives or any mental health issues.

The majority of normal people actually do have trouble communicating about issues that they find emotionally upsetting. Some more than others.

Personally, I wish Alanzo well and hope he gets back on his feet writing on other sites soon. He's good at what he does, he's smart and often has terrific insight. I also hope he resolves whatever he came here for.

I also hope this thread gets closed soon.

Makes me wonder why we believe we're smart enough to understand and label others when we have so little understanding of our own selves.

Sometimes, realizing we don't know isn't such a bad thing.

Or realizing we only have a small piece of the picture.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Hey Good Twin,

A few days ago you 'liked' an old post I made (a few years ago, below) then today you 'thanked' the same post so I'm wondering if you're making a point and if so, what is it?

I've always acknowledged the posters who (unknown to them) helped me when I first arrived here and Zinj, Feral, Alanzo, yourself, Mick, Emma and Pooks are high on that list ... often because of the open and direct way they were communicating (as opposed to what they were actually saying) and nothing has changed regarding my viewpoint of the past, I'll always appreciate those days and those posters.

I just thought you may like to know that ...




http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21487-ESMB-isn-t-the-soft-landing-it-used-to-be-for-people-getting-out&p=518841&viewfull=1#post518841

 

[SomeGuy]

The true and real back story.


For a while I pretty much thought he was talking about me. In his 2011 attempted suicide by mod, he accused me of not only being the nastiest person on the internet, but also of being OSA and controlling ESMB by controlling Emma and squashing any and all attempts at discussing moonbat theories of OSAOSAOSA.


Of course he missed my withold- almost found out that it's not OSA but the Marcabs that are in charge-- and so Marcab Fleet ordered him banned in an attempt to keep my cover.

I remember this. Now I might be talking out my ass but the original butthurt had so many layers it's probably why even after 3 years it still requires 30 page threads. I would only add the following (which is still baffling to me):

-Some people in australia stepped on some feelings of others and this forum didn't allow them to vent how their feelings were hurt.
-People who thought they "owned" this forum saw "formal" introductions which bypassed some unwritten forum rules.
-The OSAOSAOSA brigade saw shadows every where.

Add to this a mix of back channel long held but unspoken grudges and you get trainspotting facebook group and the ongoing drama. You now have a new cast of characters who reacted almost identically. Alanzo's return vs Mike Laws first post(it might be the be nice to newbies thread it's been a long time), different vitriol but both had this inexplicable angst in responses. It is a message board and it pretty much works like all the others out there with a couple of extra cult mind fucks thrown in for fun.

I don't think this drama ever stops even if ESMB disappeared it would be carried over into the next forum. For all I know it might stem back to the mythical ARS wars which I hear mentioned. I know this is difficult for people who see this forum as their primary vehicle for communication but it really is only a forum and the written medium while powerful lacks the ability to convey nuance.

One last note, you are doing a terrible job mind controlling emma. Seriously you should turn in your witch doctor card at your earliest convenience.

 

[MrNobody]

Wait - WHAT?

MrNobody, I don't question that you may be a good addiction counsellor, harsh though your treatment method may be. Certainly some addicts need to hit bottom to get better. Others just die. Some smokers go cold turkey, but a larger percentage quit by gradually cutting back using nicotine aids.

People are different. But again, you may be a very good addiction counsellor. That's not my main problem with what you wrote.

Point 1: I' NOT a counselor. I happen to know some former or current addicts and some people who work in Rehab.

Point 2: Some of my (addicted) friends died.

Interesting personal observations:
- Those who received the "harsh" treatment, are still alive, off of their drugs and doing well in life. All of 'em.
- Those who've had the nicest, best "cushions" imaginable to land on, are dead. All of 'em.

That's what I base my personal conclusions on and I know a few professional consultants and rehab-workers who would agree with me.

What's wrong with what you wrote is that you stated on a public forum an assumption that Alanzo is an addict without a shred of evidence. That's just a whole lot of labelling without the facts to support it against a person who has spent years helping others out of the cult and who still writes prolifically on other sites.

You don't know a thing about Alanzo's personal life, you don't know him personally, and I doubt that you are trained as a clinical psychologist to make that judgement, either.

Yaddayaddayadda. I NEVER said he was an addict, I just compared him to one. See the difference?

The only things any of us know as facts are:

1) Alanzo came back to ESMB for some reason.

True.

2) Alanzo communicated poorly when he came back so people are still wondering about #1.

True.

3) Alanzo communicates well on other sites.

I don't know about that, I can only base my opinion on what I see here.

That's it. Poor communication doesn't mean diddly squat as to motives or any mental health issues.

The majority of normal people actually do have trouble communicating about issues that they find emotionally upsetting. Some more than others.

Not my experience. Usually, when I'm having conversations with approximately sane people, all I need to do is ask them for clarification or remind them of where the focus of the discussion is. That's all it usually takes to have a fruitful discussion.

Not so with Alanzo. No chance to get an addressable point out of him. Many have tried, none have succeeded. Sadly, in recent conversations, Veda seems to follow the same path. I don't see myself wasting any more time with that. Either people make their fuckin' point in a way that other people have at least a chance to understand it and reply to it if they want to, or they should just STFU, GTFO and GDIAF.

This shit turns this board into a monstrous garbage pile and it's quite annoying. I'm surprised and irritated that you support it.

Personally, I wish Alanzo well and hope he gets back on his feet writing on other sites soon. He's good at what he does, he's smart and often has terrific insight. I also hope he resolves whatever he came here for.

I also hope this thread gets closed soon.

I don't know what he might be good at and can hardly wait to find out about what that might be but until I do find out, all I can do is wish him to get better soon and a speedy recovery.

I hope this thread stays open for quite a while, it's beneficial and helpful, IMHO.

 

[Nicole]

Wait - WHAT?

MrNobody, I don't question that you may be a good addiction counsellor, harsh though your treatment method may be. Certainly some addicts need to hit bottom to get better. Others just die. Some smokers go cold turkey, but a larger percentage quit by gradually cutting back using nicotine aids.

People are different. But again, you may be a very good addiction counsellor. That's not my main problem with what you wrote.

What's wrong with what you wrote is that you stated on a public forum an assumption that Alanzo is an addict without a shred of evidence. That's just a whole lot of labelling without the facts to support it against a person who has spent years helping others out of the cult and who still writes prolifically on other sites.

You don't know a thing about Alanzo's personal life, you don't know him personally, and I doubt that you are trained as a clinical psychologist to make that judgement, either.

The only things any of us know as facts are:

1) Alanzo came back to ESMB for some reason.
2) Alanzo communicated poorly when he came back so people are still wondering about #1.
3) Alanzo communicates well on other sites.

That's it. Poor communication doesn't mean diddly squat as to motives or any mental health issues.

The majority of normal people actually do have trouble communicating about issues that they find emotionally upsetting. Some more than others.

Personally, I wish Alanzo well and hope he gets back on his feet writing on other sites soon. He's good at what he does, he's smart and often has terrific insight. I also hope he resolves whatever he came here for.

I also hope this thread gets closed soon.

Na, MrN way to go arround with drug addicted persons is "common sense" in lot of "businesses" that help people. I have learned it eg at University... I am working as Socialworker since years and before I can sometimes help people, they have to "fall". I would say with a Cultie or Ex Cultie it is similar.

You can't help a Scientologist as long he/she still believes in the Tech and the Wins. Even if they have gone through RPFs or whatever. Sometimes they have to loose everything, before they wake up and can get help. Lot's examples are here on ESMB, me too.

Alanzo seems to have some problems, but as long he is getting a positive feedback, he will stay in this way of thinking and imo I believe he isn't lucky with it. But it is not my job to help him and at this point of time it won't help too.


MrN has a gift, I envy him for this. He is a very good "observer" and see what other people have for "fraughts". He is there if you need him, but don't give you a rule to live. He let you find your own way. He knows when to hold the hand and when to let people do their own experience, even if this mean, they have to fall again.

@ MrN wollte ich nur mal irgendwie gesagt haben. Danke.

 

[MrNobody]

<snipped some stuff I agree with>

MrN has a gift, I envy him for this. He is a very good "observer" and see what other people have for "fraughts". He is there if you need him, but don't give you a rule to live. He let you find your own way. He knows when to hold the hand and when to let people do their own experience, even if this mean, they have to fall again.

@ MrN wollte ich nur mal irgendwie gesagt haben. Danke.

Thanks Nicole.

Honestly: I wouldn't want to call it a "gift". It's just that life has taught me some very valuable lessons and I've payed quite a lot for some of 'em. One could say I'm still paying...

 

[Good twin]

Hey Good Twin,

A few days ago you 'liked' an old post I made (a few years ago, below) then today you 'thanked' the same post so I'm wondering if you're making a point and if so, what is it?

I've always acknowledged the posters who (unknown to them) helped me when I first arrived here and Zinj, Feral, Alanzo, yourself, Mick, Emma and Pooks are high on that list ... often because of the open and direct way they were communicating (as opposed to what they were actually saying) and nothing has changed regarding my viewpoint of the past, I'll always appreciate those days and those posters.

I just thought you may like to know that ...




http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?21487-ESMB-isn-t-the-soft-landing-it-used-to-be-for-people-getting-out&p=518841&viewfull=1#post518841

I guess I just keep looking at the various links and I like and thank as I read. I appreciate those days and posters too. But gosh. I spent way too much time on my computer back then. I'm sorry if I blew up your notifications while revisiting old threads.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I don't think Alanzo is sulking anywhere nor licking his wounds.

I think he just realized that he doesn't fit here anymore simply because he has already moved on to other things.

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong.

And I think he understands the way he approached things was a mistake.

I think he wanted to bring people's attention back to something that happened years ago which most people did not know or understand what was happening.

And what he found is that nobody cares.

My opinion is that it wasn't such a big deal anyway (about the "it"--the taboo subject).

Big deal, so some people wanted to convince others about changing their ways of posting.

This happens all the time in any discussion.

The subject is not taboo, nor toxic.

The subject is boring and irrelevant.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Markus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHitXxH-us

"we should be united against the common enemy"

 

[MrNobody]

<snip>

That came later. The ship - which, according to Mr. N, would have destroyed ESMB - was already sinking under heavy bombardment, with Captain Alanzo becoming disoriented, as he alternated between capitulation and reacting angrily.

Now it's getting late, and I don't want to keep discussing this topic.

Misrepresenting me won't get you anywhere, Veda.

Let's keep the discussion fair and honest, shall we? Here's what I really said:

<snip>
I can make a pretty reliable prediction on what would have happened if the communication he sought had occurred: Together with him, the whole board would have gone down never to be heard of ever again. Because that's what happens to co-dependants.

....

I don't now whether Alanzo ever had a ship but if he did, he must have lost it months before his 1st ban. All he currently has is a leak with no ship around it, and no matter how many co-dependants he might be able to gather around him can do anything to change that. At least not as long as they're still co-dependants.


Right. There would be a growing number of co-dependants instead - destroying the board and leaving it behind as collateral damage on their noble quest to find Alanzos lost ship.

Personally, I'm very glad that Emma didn't let that happen.

<snip>

tl;dr:
There IS no "ship", there hasn't been one for many years, and I think it's doubtful that it ever existed.

Now, can we continue the conversation from there like real grown-ups? I'd really appreciate that.

 

[Deeana]

"I think he wanted to bring people's attention back to something that happened years ago which most people did not know or understand what was happening.

And what he found is that nobody cares.

My opinion is that it wasn't such a big deal anyway (about the "it"--the taboo subject).

Big deal, so some people wanted to convince others about changing their ways of posting.

This happens all the time in any discussion.

The subject is not taboo, nor toxic.

The subject is boring and irrelevant."



Yep. Although, I must admit that reading this thread has been fascinating in one of those slowing-down-to-look-at-a-car-wreck kind of ways.

The bottom line is that it is a board owner who gets to make the decision as to who gets to post on their board. My understanding is that it is THEIR bandwidth and they can ban whomever, whenever, and for any reason. All posters are guests. I think sometimes people lose sight of this.

Think of it as having a party in your home when one of your invited guests begins to display an unacceptable-to-you behavior. (Maybe they had a bad day at the office. Maybe they are drunk or high. Maybe they just got out of a cult. The "why" doesn't really matter. It is the unacceptable behavior that is the concern.)

The host/ess may tactfully warn the person to stop the unacceptable behavior. Other guests may warn the person to stop acting that way. A few guests may even take the person aside and speak privately with them about their behavior - again, in an attempt to get them to stop.

But the behavior does NOT stop. The inappropriate guest actually gets worse, finally escalating to vomiting on the carpet and shytting his pants. And at that point, even HE knows he should be asked to leave! And so he is duly ejected. The door is barred.

The banned guest next proceeds to stand outside in the yard shouting invectives at the host/ess. A guest or two approach the hostess saying things like "Oh, maybe it was too CRUEL to banish him. I think he may need some kind of assistance." And by this time the banned guest is throwing rocks at the home of the host/ess yelling "Cruel! Cruel! Cruel!"

What should said hostess do? What should the other party guests do?

 

[Veda]

I don't think Alanzo is sulking anywhere nor licking his wounds.

I think he just realized that he doesn't fit here anymore simply because he has already moved on to other things.

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong.

And I think he understands the way he approached things was a mistake.

I think he wanted to bring people's attention back to something that happened years ago which most people did not know or understand what was happening.

And what he found is that nobody cares.

My opinion is that it wasn't such a big deal anyway (about the "it"--the taboo subject).

Big deal, so some people wanted to convince others about changing their ways of posting.

This happens all the time in any discussion.

The subject is not taboo, nor toxic.

The subject is boring and irrelevant.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I don't think Alanzo is sulking either. However, what brought me back to this thread was that e-mail, posted by Emma, and the strange justifications for extreme measures that were proposed by some. If Alanzo was the author of that e-mail, he may have ended one chapter, and he may be beginning a new chapter and moving on, but the ending of that last chapter was most definitely not a happy one.

Alanzo continues to be a topic of discussion in a place where he cannot respond. That's likely to create some discomfort, and it's only natural that it would. Alanzo is not crazy as some would like us to believe, but he is human.

And the stit shorm that ensued when Alanzo dared to mention the "it" topic is an indication that the second half of your well meaning post is not entirely accurate.

It's fair to say, IMO, that if Alanzo had just skipped starting that one thread, he'd still be here.


On to another "historical" (old) topic, circa 2011, I notice that Pooks came along and did a "DA" number on Alanzo - just for good measure I suppose. For those who wish to judge for themselves, and wish, for some reason, to venture into that 2011 quagmire, they can do a search on Alanzo's posts using Pooks as a search term. Alanzo was not quite as tightly wrapped in Pooks' beloved "tinfoil" as Pooks depicts.


And to Mr. Nobody. You're wrong again.

Just kidding, Mr. Nobody, but I really don't want to argue with you about metaphors.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I don't think Alanzo is sulking either. However, what brought me back to this thread was that e-mail, posted by Emma, and the strange justifications for extreme measures that were proposed by some. If Alanzo was the author of that e-mail, he may have ended one chapter, and he may be beginning a new chapter and moving on, but the ending of that last chapter was most definitely not a happy one.

Alanzo continues to be a topic of discussion in a place where he cannot respond. That's likely to create some discomfort, and it's only natural that it would. Alanzo is not crazy as some would like us to believe, but he is human.

And the stit shorm that ensued when Alanzo dared to mention the "it" topic is an indication that the second half of your well meaning post is not entirely accurate.

It's fair to say, IMO, that if Alanzo had just skipped starting that one thread, he'd still be here.


On to another "historical" (old) topic, circa 2011, I notice that Pooks came along and did a "DA" number on Alanzo - just for good measure I suppose. For those who wish to judge for themselves, and wish, for some reason, to venture into that 2011 quagmire, they can do a search on Alanzo's posts using Pooks as a search term. Alanzo was not quite as tightly wrapped in Pooks' beloved "tinfoil" as Pooks depicts.


And to Mr. Nobody. You're wrong again.

Just kidding, Mr. Nobody, but I really don't want to argue with you about metaphors.

There was not a strong reaction to the "it" topic; the strong reaction was to Alanzo's insulting rudeness.

You should not discount that.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Veda]

There was not a strong reaction to the "it" topic; the strong reaction was to Alanzo's insulting rudeness.

You should not discount that.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Nah. When the "it" thread was begun by Alanzo, the nervous tap dancing began almost immediately; but the shonkey mit flinging at Alanzo didn't begin in earnest until after he made the dreaded post #35.

In any event, it's all water under the bridge now.

I hope.

 

[MrNobody]

<snip>

And to Mr. Nobody. You're wrong again.

As long as you're not saying where I'm wrong, this statement is worthless and unproductive.

Just kidding, Mr. Nobody, but I really don't want to argue with you about metaphors.

I didn't see this when I hit the Reply-button, but OK - at least we can agree on that we're having different kinds of humor.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Nah. When the "it" thread was begun by Alanzo, the nervous tap dancing began almost immediately; but the shonkey mit flinging at Alanzo didn't begin in earnest until after he made the dreaded post #35.

In any event, it's all water under the bridge now.

I hope.

You're just throwing out metaphors to disparage people.

Nervous tap dancing?

Come on now, you know that is just a snide little dig at people.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Veda]

You're just throwing out metaphors to disparage people.

Nervous tap dancing?

Come on now, you know that is just a snide little dig at people.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Didn't we just do this?

Once was enough.

 

[TG1]

Veda,

For quite some time you've been insinuating that this message board isn't run as well as it might be run.

Have you ever considered starting your own message board? If you did, you could run it exactly to your own higher standards.

You could negotiate the volunteer services of multiple moderators in different time zones around the world to provide close to 24-hour oversight to ensure no member was ever damaged, doxed or harassed. You could ensure that no liability would attach to you or the board or anyone who posted here and (unwittingly) did things that would expose them to criminal liability either.

You could respond to constant suggestions from board members for improvements that were needed -- like better buttons, smileys, forums, software upgrades, security, etc.

You could guide the discussions at your board Veda-style, nudging members this way and that, to ensure everyone had appropriate realizations at a regular pace and that no one was left behind. You could supervise individual members' progress from newly departed indies to fully fledged, Veda-certified ex-Scientologists on your Veda Bridge to Total Spiritual Capitulation.

It should be easy for someone with a little extra time on their hands with no family to care for, no school-age children to raise, no taxing job and no business travel.

Please don't mistake my post for snark, because I know you never engage in snark. Perhaps it's time you showed us all how it's done.

Sincerely,

TG1

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Didn't we just do this?

Once was enough.

Yet you continue to make the snide digs.

Why do you think that is an OK thing to do?

The Anabaptist Jacques