Too Much Cruelty

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
The post below was nasty and sounded quite threatening to me ... If you are genuine about being nicer Alanzo you could make a good start by apologising to Taj, who doesn't need added stress due to his health being up and down. He won't be posting again for a while (due to being unwell) but he may still be reading here.

I'm not speaking for Taj (he doesn't need that) but the post below really annoyed me (plus some you aimed at Emma) and at the time I said nothing ... you're already annoyed with me for ceasing to support you, so you may as well know why.




http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?33517-Scientology-is-NOT-a-scam&p=862386&viewfull=1#post862386
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Here's an eerie coincidence....Over the past few weeks an Armadillo has been digging holes all around my lawn!!

And I noticed yesterday that Alanzo's Armadillo avatar is missing!! :omg:
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Taj, who doesn't need added stress due to his health being up and down. He won't be posting again for a while (due to being unwell) but he may still be reading here.

Thanks for that. My next thread was going to be "where is TAJ". Now I know.

If you are reading WE LOVE YOU TAJ!!
 

Good twin

Floater
Nice post GT.

Is this a good time to ask you whether you still believe that Mike Laws & Karen we sent by Marty Rathbun to ESMB to smooth the way for his takeover & that I was complicit in it by introducing Karen in a thread after I'd already sold my soul to Mike laws in exchange for money to assist me in my legal battle with the church which itself was an Indy OSA Op instigated by Mike Laws & Marty Rathbun to put me in a vulnerable position allowing them to buy me? (I think I have that right)

I'd really like to know seeing as it looks like this is hopefully being put to bed once & for all.

I don't know what all of those relationships were or are. I do think that Mike Laws and Karen are soldiers. That is not to say that they are not valued. I don't think they are Marty's soldiers so much anymore. I think they are determined to expose what they think needs to be exposed. My problem with Marty was simple. I had a respect for squirrels and felt that Marty was attacking the squirrels to preserve standard tech. I know you were never Marty's soldier. I don't think your soul was ever for sale. But you made choices about your own loyalty just like I did.

I think you did whatever you did based on what you thought was right. You were supportive of what you considered effective. I did think you might have been manipulated at a time when you were vulnerable. But I don't know that to be true and I don't think you ever changed your own objectives. Just like I never changed mine. Do you still think I was seduced by Zinj and the anti cabal in an effort to destroy you personally and ESMB?

I was concerned about the possibility of a coup. I had seen the cult morph to avoid exposure and collapse. I also saw friends of mine leave to cult and go running to the shack. DM's head on a pike was not outside the realm of possibility in my mind. But we couldn't discuss it. We couldn't hash it out. I chose to keep the friendships that I could without being controlled or told what I could say or who I could interact with. So I just watched. I still spend more time watching than posting. I am careful sometimes to not stick my nose where I have nothing to contribute. But I still am asked from time to time to tell what I know and what I believe based on my experience.

Thanks for asking. Otherwise I would never have mentioned it again.
 

Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks for that. My next thread was going to be "where is TAJ". Now I know.

If you are reading WE LOVE YOU TAJ!!

Yeah, TAJ, I need to finish that philosophical discussion with you. After Halloween, I think. Get better, dude.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Do you still think I was seduced by Zinj and the anti cabal in an effort to destroy you personally and ESMB?

If we are being honest.....Then yes I do.

That was his agenda. Not saying it was yours but you contributed to it in a big way. I read all of TS and I was shocked at what I saw. I saw how carefully you explained to Sindy & others how constructed the "takeover" was & how by me introducing Karen I'd paved the way. I saw the speculation on how I had been bought. How I sold out. How I betrayed my friends.

I also saw the mocking & character assassinations of Feral & Panda & Scooter & Grainne & Tony O and anyone who didn't fit with the program. Very few people escaped being slandered on TS.

I never actually worked out what I'd done (or anyone else had done) to deserve all this except for giving a few people a two week ban on ESMB and asked for a little kindness to newbies. Oh and I also refused to buy the BS about Mike Laws (and I still do). That was apparently my big mistake. Or maybe it was introducing Karen who was too timid to post on her own without some support from me. Whatever it was I still don't understand why I (or anyone else) deserved two Facebook groups determined to ruin a bunch of people's credibility & that of ESMBs.
 

Nicole

Silver Meritorious Patron
Now I can see it all as more of a growing experience for both me and ESMB. There was a lot going on behind the scenes and much wasn't fully explained or exposed. I resented Karen being introduced as a celebrity and the rest of us expected to sit quietly like mannerly school children. Her posting style was different than any other poster. She made huge announcements from the Indy world and never engaged in conversation. She didn't answer questions. She simply made announcements. Once I caught on to her posting style I learned to enjoy it. But I always wished I could just have a conversation with her. That is my style of interacting.

Hmmm, via PM you can talk with Karen... Not about personal thinks (I don't want it too). Imo she is carefull and she is only here to fight against the "Church" (I don't say Cult, because the Indies have for me all "signs" of a Cult too) She isn't here for "friendships" imo, but if you want help in the fight against the "Church", she is there and this very fast. She is one of the Indies you can "talk" with.

It even exists Ex that aren't Indies and you can`t talk with them, because they are a little bit "narcissistic" or something like that.


We have to learn imo that we are all different and not to see behind something that other people do anything bad. I don't believe Emma was thinking about something bad as she introduced Karen, she has made it, without to think about it. :)
 

Good twin

Floater
If we are being honest.....Then yes I do.

That was his agenda. Not saying it was yours but you contributed to it in a big way. I read all of TS and I was shocked at what I saw. I saw how carefully you explained to Sindy & others how constructed the "takeover" was & how by me introducing Karen I'd paved the way. I saw the speculation on how I had been bought. How I sold out. How I betrayed my friends.

I also saw the mocking & character assassinations of Feral & Panda & Scooter & Grainne & Tony O and anyone who didn't fit with the program. Very few people escaped being slandered on TS.

I never actually worked out what I'd done (or anyone else had done) to deserve all this except for giving a few people a two week ban on ESMB and asked for a little kindness to newbies. Oh and I also refused to buy the BS about Mike Laws (and I still do). That was apparently my big mistake. Or maybe it was introducing Karen who was too timid to post on her own without some support from me. Whatever it was I still don't understand why I (or anyone else) deserved two Facebook groups determined to ruin a bunch of people's credibility & that of ESMBs.

I saw some pretty nasty campaigning too. It was hurtful and not just to you.
 

He-man

Hero extraordinary
If we are being honest.....Then yes I do.

That was his agenda. Not saying it was yours but you contributed to it in a big way. I read all of TS and I was shocked at what I saw. I saw how carefully you explained to Sindy & others how constructed the "takeover" was & how by me introducing Karen I'd paved the way. I saw the speculation on how I had been bought. How I sold out. How I betrayed my friends.

I also saw the mocking & character assassinations of Feral & Panda & Scooter & Grainne & Tony O and anyone who didn't fit with the program. Very few people escaped being slandered on TS.

What is TS?
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
The post below was nasty and sounded quite threatening to me ... If you are genuine about being nicer Alanzo you could make a good start by apologising to Taj, who doesn't need added stress due to his health being up and down. He won't be posting again for a while (due to being unwell) but he may still be reading here.

I'm not speaking for Taj (he doesn't need that) but the post below really annoyed me (plus some you aimed at Emma) and at the time I said nothing ... you're already annoyed with me for ceasing to support you, so you may as well know why.




http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-is-NOT-a-scam&p=862386&viewfull=1#post862386

I hope that TAJ did not take it cruelly. I did not mean it that way.

Nor did I mean to threaten him.

I was surprised at his new attitude, and I was telling him that I disagreed with it.

Really. That's all.

And I did not think that I was saying or doing anything in that post which was not already completely sanctioned by all the rules here on ESMB.

I've also missed TAJ, and have been wondering where he was.

Alanzo
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Sometimes, when I do not mean to, it is surprising to me how I can insult someone by something I write.

It's as if I've developed a kind of Internet Asperger's over the years and I just have no idea what effect will be created, or what someone else will see or feel from what I have written.

I am really sorry to have stirred up all this. I did not mean to. And I really did not want to.

So just rat-a-tat, I'm going to try to explain myself one last time.

I know that I get stuck together with Zinj in peoples' minds but I am not stuck together with him.

What I meant when *I* said "ESMB is done" was this:

Message boards are the easiest and cheapest way for any OSA type entity (Church and Indy and all other forms) to launch projects against critics of Scientology. Often times they do not even have to pay for the computers or internet connections that their people use. At that time, I realized that message boards of all kinds - not just ESMB - were extremely vulnerable to this type of OSA based project.

Just as Tory wrote last week, all they have to do is to slime someone and just keep sliming. Just keep up the sliming and get others in on the sliming, and pretty soon a food fight erupts and keeps going and keeps going and it becomes so unpleasant for anyone to post there that people just quit, or become so angry they do something that gets them banned, or whatever.

It's like a Chimpanzee bar fight. If you've ever seen Animal Planet's "Escape to Chimp Eden" then you know what I'm talking about. Everyone is fighting everyone. It is pandemonium.

And people get damaged and hurt and friendships and alliances and loyalties are destroyed. And yes, the whole reason these types of OSA projects work is because people are frail and hurting already from being in the cult and it is easy to "push their buttons".

What I saw earlier this week was that this type of sliming CONTINUED for over a year here on ESMB. When I read the Zinj/OSA posts that were taken out of Panda's Guide to OSA thread, my whole understanding of ESMB completely changed. I got very angry that this kept going with NO RESOLUTION AT ALL. No one ever stepped up. No one ever said "I'm sorry. I've been doing this on purpose"

And no one ever will because there is very strict policy on never allowing covert ops to be exposed, and anyone doing this believes that it is the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics, and there is a huge cost to the person personally for standing up and doing the humane thing. And anyone who would work for OSA for any length of time is going to be having a "humanity problem" already.

And because SCIENTOLOGY IS CRUEL AND IT FUCKING SUCKS.

I saw that this continued fighting with no resolution was extremely damaging to so many people who are just trying to make sense of what happened to them in that fucking cult. And I saw ESMB as the victim (yes I used that word because victims exist and I AM NOT USING IT the way that Scientology uses it to "blame the victim".) I saw ESMB as the victim and I saw that it was NOT RIGHT for me to do anything other than come in here and be supportive.

I saw very clearly that my own past was TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.

And I said that.

So my view of ESMB has completely changed in the last week.

Completely.

And I saw that the primary vehicle used to damage ESMB is to slime other posters by writing posts that contain no other content than an insult or a direct attack on another poster.

That is the primary mechanism which has been, and still can be used, to damage ESMB.

Tory is right. This is how it is done.

So I decided that I would no longer engage in any cruelty of any kind ever again on ESMB. And I already HAVE been reporting every post I see that is nothing but an insult to another poster.

I will continue to do that, while also not engaging in anything like that myself.

I understand that what I have written above is seen by many different viewpoints in many different ways. I've tried to be clear in what I have written. If I have not been clear, please understand that if you have become insulted by anything I've written, I did not mean to insult you.

Really. I swear to God.

Alanzo
 
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He-man

Hero extraordinary
Well said Alanzo.

I was going to say there is no god and submit that on its own entirely just for the fun of it but I changed my mind.

What the hell happened to your Avatar?
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Nice post GT.

Is this a good time to ask you whether you still believe that Mike Laws & Karen we sent by Marty Rathbun to ESMB to smooth the way for his takeover & that I was complicit in it by introducing Karen in a thread after I'd already sold my soul to Mike laws in exchange for money to assist me in my legal battle with the church which itself was an Indy OSA Op instigated by Mike Laws & Marty Rathbun to put me in a vulnerable position allowing them to buy me? (I think I have that right)

I'd really like to know seeing as it looks like this is hopefully being put to bed once & for all.

Well, Emma, since we're [STRIKE]being[/STRIKE] trying to be honest here, let me say this:

IMHO, awarding Karen (and IIRC Mike) with your "special laurels" before they even had their 1st post up, was a very bad move and it supported or even created many of the shenanigans that came thereafter.

Back then, when I saw it happen, I thought "Why the fuck did she do that? Doesn't she see that she'll harm herself and her board by doing it?"

Yes, Karen and Mike would have probably been given a much harder time during their 1st 200 posts or so. That comes with the territory and with the position and the reputation they had had in the cult - and later in the Indie ranks.

I don't care whether Karen still fondles her e-meter or not, I don't care whether Mike Laws bows and prays to Clearwater 5 times a day or not. That's their personal thing and as long as they don't bother ESMB (or me as a member) with their habits, I couldn't care any less about that.

tl;dr:
Giving them your "special starter booster" was a mistake and a big contribution to the mess you obviously still are dealing with. But: Mistakes exist so that people can learn from them - so in the end, all will be good.

jus' my 0.02€
 
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