trepidatious

HelluvaHoax!

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Re: Summing up your sunk costs in Scientology

Provide one "real" benefit from Scientology that is any different from actual benefits people get all the time from all sorts of activities.

People have spent their lives dedicated to Scientology and the only "real" (but subtle!) benefits they get for all that time, all that dedication, all that money is something that is common from something like a good diet and exercise program? Tell me, where is any benefit unique to Scientology?

I'll tell you. If there is any benefit that is unique to Scientology, it's too subtle for me to detect.

Bill


There is one distinctive benefit from Scientology that sets it apart from all others.

It is the only branch of science where you can prove with unerring accuracy that a technology works by simply saying the word "win". The confirmation & certitude that this is true exceeds any margin of error if you can also spell or pronounce the word correctly, a test which Mark has evidenced to my complete satisfaction.
 

Johnd

Patron with Honors
Re: Summing up your sunk costs in Scientology

Because what several have evidently never understood is that it is possible to benefit from the workability of the subject of scientology without ever becoming ensnared in the cult. Not merely possible, the only effective way to experience real gains from the use of scientology is to minimize, or better yet avoid completely, any entanglement with hubbard's cult.

Many have managed to do so to varying degrees successfully.


Mark A. Baker

Many? Really? Varying degrees? Why does this seem like mush? Some examples?

It is 'possible' to benefit from scn in the sense that anything is possible? Again, that's like saying nothing. Or do you have real, specific gains in mind. Do you mean significant gains or minor fleeting ones? If so WHAT? You can speak from personal experience. I have no problem with that. I usually respect people who do.

I don't think as you imply that 'several' just haven't appreciated the nuance of 'scientology free from entanglement' with hubbard's cult. They just think the tech overwhelmingly doesn't work and/or is harmful.

I can't prove the tech doesn't work any more than I can prove there are no tooth faeries. Hard to absolutely prove a negative. I have to go on my experience and on confluence of testimony and evidence. And that just doesn't work out well for the tech. To me it is just talk therapy perverted and channeled into a bizarre body of psychoanalytic lunacy.

The work of a dangerous lunatic. You can maybe say that some lunatics have done good work. Van Gogh maybe? But I can see van gogh's paintings. Where do I find this 'workable tech.'

john
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Summing up your sunk costs in Scientology

Hardly, Bill. The real benefits to be had are more subtle than those of which hubbard made such excessive & grandiose promise. That doesn't negate those real benefits. It simply illustrates that the church does not deliver those which they promise, in contradiction to their own promises & policy. :)

. . . it is possible to benefit from the workability of the subject of scientology . . .

Mark A. Baker

A real benefit in the real world would be something like how an antibiotic can kill germs in ANYBODY, ANYWHERE at ANYTIME (as long as the strain is not yet resistant due to antibiotic overuse).

Every benefit that you are talking about as regards Scientology will be solely SUBJECTIVE. Damn Mark, people get the same sort of real benefits right down the street from me by "handling snakes", "speaking in tongues", or having some Sunday tent Baptist minister hit them in the middle of the forehead with the power of Jesus.

I am sorry, but whatever "real" means to you is NOT what it means to a great many other people. You must be using the crazy Scientology ARC definition, where "real" is whatever any nutbag chooses to accept and believe as true.

The absolute MOST that you can say about Scientology, that is accurate and true, is that some people believe that they have gotten some sort of benefit some of the time from something they call Scientology.

To say that many people benefit from the workability of Scientology is absurd. The workability? :hysterical:

You are kidding right? :confused2:

That would be like saying that many people benefit from the workability of crystal gazing or snake handling. Something happens, no doubt, to some of the people some of the time, but that it has anything to do with any sort of workability of the subject of Scientology is highly unlikely.

The standard Scientology Bridge to Nowhere is a big crapshoot. Keep throwing enough shit at the wall and some will eventually stick. THAT is about all that "works".

At best, for some people, some of the time, some of the processes might be interesting and useful. The only aspect of all Scientology that I ever found to have any sort of easy application and possible consistent results might be R3R Assists and ARC break handlings for actual real upsets, traumas and loses. Other than that, it is like so much other New Age stuff - it depends more on the person USING it than it does on the actual techniques themselves, because a great deal of Scientology auditing involves creative imagination (except in many other new Age practices one gets to be in-charge, whereas with Scientology one is NEVER told that Hubbard has manipulated HOW ones imagination is directed & used).
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...

My apologies if anyone thinks I have done the unforgivable by posting this, but let's get real for a moment.

Mark Baker has countless posts that promote that Scientology works.

Here is the problem I have with that.

Mark has also posted on this board a number of times that he (very unfortunately) suffers from bi-polar disorder and takes medication for it.

I honestly wouldn't wish that on anyone and certainly would hope whatever he does can help him with that.

But, Mark has also been a Scientologist for over 30 years.

Quite apparently the Scientology tech that L. Ron Hubbard "discovered" and published did not work and did not do what it warranted and guaranteed it would do. Otherwise Mark's problem would have been resolved on BOOK I auditing and/or PTS handing.

If he has "wins" on the tech that is good. I hope he feels better by doing anything he can.

But "wins" is not the same as Scientology works.

Let's not kid ourselves, that stuff does not "work" and do what it is supposed to do.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Does it matter to an individual from whence the benefit comes, if that person believes it was of benefit to them? I think not. I believe that any benefit one experienced in scientology was self-generated ie. you simply changed your mind about a given thing, scientology practice was the facilitator of or catalyst for that change of mind.

Of course there are other routes and other modes of travel which might have been taken but this, being an Ex Scientologist Message Board, is largely peopled by those who took the scientological route. Scientology was the horse we rode. :)
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
I agree with Mark, that there are some gains to be made in Scientology... my theory is that LRH himself started tinkering with it to make it less and less workable over time, for whatever crazy reasons he had.. however.. I think somewhere in that mess, the Framework for just about any kind of win is there. It's just digging around to find the gold in a big field full of landmines.. that's my opinion, and I am sure we ALL have our own opinions about what in the hell happened while we were Scientologists..

None of us "made it". None of us reached Full OT.. However, some of us went exterior on various drills or processes or even courses.. When you are OUTSIDE your body, and something LRH said made it possible for you to be there, and you KNOW you are not just a body/human, but also a spiritual being, then for me.. that says something grand about something contained there-in..

I don't think as many people who have gotten charmed by Scientology did so just because it created a minor stir in their lives.. it had to be something major to attract so many people for such long periods of time, and make them practically slaves to get what they felt was somewhere in that tech.

Unfortunately, there are only random gains and wins to be had, if the deck is stacked against you... and I believe Ron started stacking it against us at some point.. to keep his Superiority intact, for money, power etc..

If we are going to be HONEST.. many of the people on this board NATTER rather incessantly.. still have charge up the kazoo and don't have any answers for a happy life OUTSIDE of Scientology... If Mark has some treasured wins in Scientology.. then good for him. If any of you have treasured wins OUTSIDE of Scientology.. then good for you! We all want to be winning and having wonderful lives.. let's see if we can HELP each other and co-operate, and share what works for us and give each other hope and become the happy healthy people we can be.

I'm for becoming the happy spirits we can be too.. I think we have two sides to us.. The Human side and the Spiritual side.. what Ron would call the First dynamic and the Eighth.. (7th?) and of course all the dynamics in between.. lets see if we can spiff them ALL up and quit fighting each other.. Dilpickle
 
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Purple Rain

Crusader
Re: Summing up your sunk costs in Scientology

There is one distinctive benefit from Scientology that sets it apart from all others.

It is the only branch of science where you can prove with unerring accuracy that a technology works by simply saying the word "win". The confirmation & certitude that this is true exceeds any margin of error if you can also spell or pronounce the word correctly, a test which Mark has evidenced to my complete satisfaction.

There are some Scientology processes which are highly valid and reliable for achieving the end phenomenon, such as R2-45. But then one has to ask, is that really a Scientology process?
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Scientology Works!

..

Example of a Scientology "Win".


Person does Grade I and attains the ability to spot the source of problems and make them vanish.

SUCCESS STORY
Wow! This morning I became a Problems Release and already
this afternoon I had a huge theta win by applying my new ability
and blew a problem I had for the longest time. My eternal
gratitude to Ron. I know I will never have problems again.


It sounds great, right?

What if the person had a big brown spot on their lawn. And all their neighbors had lush green grass and no brown spot which really bothered them.

So, after Grade I they decided to test out their new abilities.

Then they tried to "spot the source of the problem" and noticed that their water sprinkler was not hitting the brown spot, so they moved it. And in a few weeks the brown spot "blew" and green grass started growing--a huge win!

This would be proof that Scientology Works, right?

I am still trying to figure out how all the wog neighbors had the Grade I ability attained without ever getting auditing.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Re: Scientology Works!

..

Example of a Scientology "Win".


Person does Grade I and attains the ability to spot the source of problems and make them vanish.

SUCCESS STORY
Wow! This morning I became a Problems Release and already
this afternoon I had a huge theta win by applying my new ability
and blew a problem I had for the longest time. My eternal
gratitude to Ron. I know I will never have problems again.


It sounds great, right?

What if the person had a big brown spot on their lawn. And all their neighbors had lush green grass and no brown spot which really bothered them.

So, after Grade I they decided to test out their new abilities.

Then they tried to "spot the source of the problem" and noticed that their water sprinkler was not hitting the brown spot, so they moved it. And in a few weeks the brown spot "blew" and green grass started growing--a huge win!

This would be proof that Scientology Works, right?

I am still trying to figure out how all the wog neighbors had the Grade I ability attained without ever getting auditing.

:lol:
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Does it matter to an individual from whence the benefit comes, if that person believes it was of benefit to them? I think not. I believe that any benefit one experienced in scientology was self-generated ie. you simply changed your mind about a given thing, scientology practice was the facilitator of or catalyst for that change of mind.

Of course there are other routes and other modes of travel which might have been taken but this, being an Ex Scientologist Message Board, is largely peopled by those who took the scientological route. Scientology was the horse we rode. :)

I do agree with that, Panda, about the benefits being self-generated. I believe people like you have arrived in a good place, partly because you had a horse and partly despite it. I am truly happy for that.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Re: Summing up your sunk costs in Scientology

There are some Scientology processes which are highly valid and reliable for achieving the end phenomenon, such as R2-45. But then one has to ask, is that really a Scientology process?

Well the tech always works, you just have to always apply the right tech at the right time.

For example, in the Way To Happiness Ron clearly gives us guidance to always tell the truth if one wishes to be truly happy.

However, Ron also has tech for other occasions (such as the LieTech called TR-L), which he says should be used when we want another to be truly happy, rather than telling them the truth about the horrible things that Scientologists are actually doing.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
If we are going to be HONEST.. many of the people on this board NATTER rather incessantly.. still have charge up the kazoo and don't have any answers for a happy life OUTSIDE of Scientology... If Mark has some treasured wins in Scientology.. then good for him. If any of you have treasured wins OUTSIDE of Scientology.. then good for you! We all want to be winning and having wonderful lives.. let's see if we can HELP each other and co-operate, and share what works for us and give each other hope and become the happy healthy people we can be.

Dil - if you want us all to get along, it might be an idea to not state things quite the way you have (bolded above). "Natter" is a scientology concept, it is "bad" but outside scientology it is more classed as honest discussion and criticism - which is perfectly normal, acceptable and desired. That is what this board is about. The majority of people here DO have happy lives and if some have "charge up the kazoo", well, that's what we are here to discuss. I suggest you read and read and read here before making any assumptions.

Just a head's up.
 

HelluvaHoax!

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--snipped--

I agree with Mark, that there are some gains to be made in Scientology... my theory is that LRH himself started tinkering with it to make it less and less workable over time,

I think I get it.......

First Ron was a normal person.

Then Ron created a workable tech and received so many gains that he elevated himself to a supremely able, soaring IQ, Homo Novis, Clear & Operating Thetan.

Ron, now being so infinitely more able and knowing (with his newly attained supernatural states) then promptly did really stupid things to the tech so that it would not work.

It's so cool that an Ron could be dumber and less able than he was before he got all that case gain. I guess that proves again how powerful the tech is because an OT can be anything!

Man, I'm with you, Dilpickle, I can't wait to go OT!
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
No Helluvahoax, you didn't get what I was saying.. This is what I meant:

First, Ron was a regular guy.. abberrated.. not OT... with good points and faults.
Second, he got ahold of a shitload of information on how the Universe Works.
Third, he started publishing it, mostly to show off how brilliant or clever he was.
Fourth, Folks liked it and started using it and getting good wins.
Fifth, Ron felt threatened.. Maybe they would become more clever than him.
Sixth, Ron decided to alter the tech and do whatever he could.. becoming more and more clever at THAT.. at suppressing people, and using what he knew to make money and hurt people.
Seventh fact: No - he was NEVER OT.. he just had some kind of awakening of some kind and found spiritual universal materials.. and then totally flubbed sharing them with the world. Now it is such a mess of information, true and false, that it is a crazy maze to get thru..
Eighth fact: Ron was so unethical, that he could not apply the tech to himself properly. When a person has 8 million overts of huge magnitude, it is hard to imagine them becoming Jesus or Buddha.
That's what I meant.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree with Mark, that there are some gains to be made in Scientology...

If we are going to be HONEST.. many of the people on this board NATTER rather incessantly.. still have charge up the kazoo and don't have any answers for a happy life OUTSIDE of Scientology... If Mark has some treasured wins in Scientology.. then good for him. If any of you have treasured wins OUTSIDE of Scientology.. then good for you! We all want to be winning and having wonderful lives.. let's see if we can HELP each other and co-operate, and share what works for us and give each other hope and become the happy healthy people we can be.

I'm for becoming the happy spirits we can be too.. I think we have two sides to us.. The Human side and the Spiritual side.. what Ron would call the First dynamic and the Eighth.. (7th?) and of course all the dynamics in between.. lets see if we can spiff them ALL up and quit fighting each other.. Dilpickle
Ummm... That's nice.

You still have the Scientology viewpoint, using Scientology terminology and concepts to "understand" the world around you. We "natter", we "have charge", we must not have happy lives because we no longer use Scientology...

No, this world is not better understood via Scientology's concepts, those concepts hide the truth not reveal it.

The greatest "benefit" I got from Scientology was the day I left it and gave up that viewpoint.

I do not "have charge", nor do I "natter". What I do is strive to ensure that the truth is promoted and Scientology's lies are exposed.

The fact that Scientology absolutely fails to deliver on its explicit promises is not something to be brushed lightly aside as you and Mark do so quickly. This is the most important point of anything to do with Scientology.

What Scientology does "deliver" (according to Scientology apologists) is, in truth, what people can and do experience all the time during many, many different activities. To say that Scientology causes these benefits is disengenuous since they are widely experienced outside of Scientology.

To claim that it is Scientology that provides these benefits is a lie and misdirection designed to get people to forget all Scientology's failures to actually deliver the specific benefits it promised. "See, it did something else instead!" No, it didn't.

I don't think anyone here objects to a believer practicing whatever they want. I object to people making claims (and excuses) for Scientology in an attempt to make people believe that Scientology "works".

Bill
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
Originally Posted by Dilpickle
If we are going to be HONEST.. many of the people on this board NATTER rather incessantly.. still have charge up the kazoo and don't have any answers for a happy life OUTSIDE of Scientology... If Mark has some treasured wins in Scientology.. then good for him. If any of you have treasured wins OUTSIDE of Scientology.. then good for you! We all want to be winning and having wonderful lives.. let's see if we can HELP each other and co-operate, and share what works for us and give each other hope and become the happy healthy people we can be.


I guess you didn't think much of our earlier talk where I suggested you look at what this thread is about and consider finding an appropriate thread to talk about how the tech works and your gains with the tech.

It used to be about exposing who Ron Hubbard really was. You didn't like that subject?

I guess you now prefer to make it about those nattery bad people on ESMB who are dramatizing their case?

Interesting.

Hey, is the volume on your wristwatch turned up too loud or is there a time bomb somewhere around here that I keep hearing? TIC TIC TIC ....... :hysterical:
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
Dil - if you want us all to get along, it might be an idea to not state things quite the way you have (bolded above). "Natter" is a scientology concept, it is "bad" but outside scientology it is more classed as honest discussion and criticism - which is perfectly normal, acceptable and desired. That is what this board is about. The majority of people here DO have happy lives and if some have "charge up the kazoo", well, that's what we are here to discuss. I suggest you read and read and read here before making any assumptions.

Just a head's up.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry - in No Way do I see most of Helluvahoax's comments as honest discussion and criticism.. they feel like full out attacks on someone's basic ideas of what makes them happy.. kind of like a Reg might do, if someone came in after finishing Grade 1 and said "sorry - I can't pay for Grade 2 right now, as I am attending a Jesus Revival Rally, and then I plan to go to a Morman event.. you KNOW he would get lectured in a completely overwhelming way for Hours.. until his will was broken and he paid for his Grade 2. I am tired of those kinds of tactics. I'd like to hear more about how folks are WINNING now.. how their lives are happier out of the church... and more Support for each other.. I appreciate honest criticism of the church.. from everything I've said, that ought to be obvious.. I have plenty of honest criticism for the church myself, and I don't consider it natter.. just facts. Dilpickle
 
... The fact that Scientology absolutely fails to deliver on its explicit promises is not something to be brushed lightly aside as you and Mark do so quickly. This is the most important point of anything to do with Scientology. ...

Bill, I routinely differentiate between the subject of scientology and the church. My remarks are predicated on that very real and clear distinction. I'm not in the least ambiguous about it, nor do I brush anything 'lightly aside'.

That you routinely confuse these two distinct aspects into one and seek to interpret my remarks in accordance with such a gross misconception is equally clear. Since you continue to do this regarding my posts despite repeated corrections it would seem you are either being deliberately disingenuous in your misinterpretation of my posts or are simply incapable of understanding the distinctions made therein. I'm not responsible for your confusion on this.

Hint:

1. abusive church == not beneficial at all

2. subject of scientology ==> potential for beneficial use


See if that helps.


Mark A. Baker
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
I guess you didn't think much of our earlier talk where I suggested you look at what this thread is about and consider finding an appropriate thread to talk about how the tech works and your gains with the tech.

It used to be about exposing who Ron Hubbard really was. You didn't like that subject?

I guess you now prefer to make it about those nattery bad people on ESMB who are dramatizing their case?

Interesting.

Hey, is the volume on your wristwatch turned up too loud or is there a time bomb somewhere around here that I keep hearing? TIC TIC TIC ....... :hysterical:

Looks like Dil could use the "Introspective Rundown" at the Fraud Land Base!:omg:
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
No Helluvahoax, you didn't get what I was saying.. This is what I meant:

First, Ron was a regular guy.. abberrated.. not OT... with good points and faults.
Second, he got ahold of a shitload of information on how the Universe Works.
Third, he started publishing it, mostly to show off how brilliant or clever he was.
Fourth, Folks liked it and started using it and getting good wins.
Fifth, Ron felt threatened.. Maybe they would become more clever than him.
Sixth, Ron decided to alter the tech and do whatever he could.. becoming more and more clever at THAT.. at suppressing people, and using what he knew to make money and hurt people.
Seventh fact: No - he was NEVER OT.. he just had some kind of awakening of some kind and found spiritual universal materials.. and then totally flubbed sharing them with the world. Now it is such a mess of information, true and false, that it is a crazy maze to get thru..
Eighth fact: Ron was so unethical, that he could not apply the tech to himself properly. When a person has 8 million overts of huge magnitude, it is hard to imagine them becoming Jesus or Buddha.
That's what I meant.



Your reasoning is so contradictory. It is actually absurd. Answer this....

If Ron's tech really worked, why did he become far worse than he was to begin with?

But I did agree with one thing you stated above:

"Second, he got ahold of a shitload of information on how the Universe Works."
 
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