trepidatious

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Some members of this board do not think that cowboy is telling the truth. I would like them to hear Hubbard's presentation of the OT data.

Below is a link to the infamous Hubbard lecture during which he publicly talks about Xenu, Marcab, Teedeeack and other crazy stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... wlzBlurwWo

“If anyone hasn't heard the full 90minute lecture (OT VIII class10), I recommend it, but only if you have an interest in mental disorders. A student of psychiatry could make a case study just listening to this man (who is clearly delusional) rant incomprehensibly for over an hour (and even more amazingly, a crowd of people hanging on his every? Word)”
Kesserunnet606

I guess I am not alone in my assessment of Hubbard’s mental capabilities
==================.
I will get back to the Hubbard lecture in a moment, but right now I would like to explain what constitutes irrefutable evidence of a person’s mental retardation.

A psychiatrist or a clinic psychologists would tell you that a person who changes his account of certain events suffers from one or another form of mental retardation including certain types of schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s disease, dementia, Down syndrome, etc.

Normal people tend to forget things as time goes by, which is natural. But they, certainly, do not change their stories within, say, 2 hours. Mentally retarded individuals, on the other hand, constantly change their accounts of events. This happens because the logic that governs the events completely eludes them.

Some criminals suffer from mental retardation and, because of that, they cannot stick to the same story, which causes their downfall. But a criminal in good mental health keeps repeating the same testimony, so he cannot be caught lying, unless there is either a physical evidence or a witness testimony showing that he is not telling the truth.

When I was in Sea Org, I was given an order to write down all my overts that I committed prior to becoming a Scientologist (this sort of things is routinely done in Sea Org). At that time I was loyal to late Hubbard because I wanted to continue his research in Dianetics. But I was not loyal to CoS because they had banned any further research. Being disloyal to the Church, I did not feel obligated to provide them with descriptions of real events.

I made up several stories of my “downfall” and memorized them in anticipation of a sec check. I knew how to fool the e-meter, but I also wanted to make sure that I keep repeating the same thing over and over. For some reason I was not subjected to a sec check (probably, because there was no need for an auditor to waste her precious time on something that has no relation to Scientology), but I was fully prepared for it.

In the beginning of the infamous Xenu lecture Hubbard tells the audience how to spell the word Xenu, you can hear him spelling it as “X-e-n-u”. 20 minutes later you can clearly hear him saying “Xemu” on several occasions.

The lecture is incredibly boring, but if you pay close attention to it, you can catch him changing the story of the Loyal Officers at least twice.

In one version of the story he tells the audience that the Xenu victims were killed before they were transported to the earth, while in the other version he says that their bodies were frozen, but they were alive during their flight to the earth.

These are unmistakable signs of Hubbard’s mental illness, there is no other explanation of the inconsistencies in his lecture.

I hadn't heard that tape for a few years. Hubbard really does sound completely insane in it.
Not so much because of what he saying, more because of how he is saying it.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
So Bill, lets say a person were to put the claims aside, what's wrong with getting some auditing since it makes you feel good? What's wrong with getting out of it whatever it has to give and be happy? (not saying have to get it on lines, just in general)

Mimsey
When have I ever expressed any objections to believers "getting some auditing"? Don't put words in my mouth.

I have always and only objected to the promotion and defense of Scientology's bogus claims, built-in fraud and continuing lies. Scientology gets new recruits by lying to them. I object to that.

But as long as it doesn't hurt or defraud other people, what a person chooses to believe and do is none of my business. I've never said otherwise.

Bill
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
I don't suppose anyone has a transcript?

Helena

If you are a Clear you shouldn't need one, as you will be able to remember every word and little sniff that Hubbard produces.

No?


6a00d8341c73fe53ef0176162b4c63970c-800wi
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
You know I love ya darlin, but I try not and assign motives to people at first. That post annoyed me too but I have read many thousands of posts here over the years and know that sometimes people start off on the wrong foot as well. Time does tell ... I prefer to be patient. OSA types tend to make mistakes, based on the tech. :biggrin: I keep in mind someone who is now a dear friend and truly effective critic who got dog piled here a long time ago, who without some understanding would never have been those things.

I love you, too, Free to Shine.

I used to be a soft person once. My eyes were soft. I don't seem to be able to get that "me" back. It's like that "rewiring" of five years on staff, that training to attack the attacker, win at all costs, handle the hell out of it, is still in place nearly twenty years later.

I am aggressive now - often when it's not necessary - often when I don't even recognise it. I did look back at my earlier posts, though, and while I did feel strongly about what I was saying I was certainly not trying to be mean.

It's true that "dogpiling" isn't fun, but it is also inevitably what happens when you put your ideas out there. If I went to a forum for survivors of child abuse and posted about how "child love" should be legal then I would have to expect that negative reaction. This is a place where people come because they have been hurt. I know you have been hurt far more than me by Scientology and I seriously don't know how you do it. I wish I could be more accepting and rational like that and hopefully I will get there one day. I just still have so much anger and, well, disgust.

There are people here who are proponents of the tech whom I don't really know but do really care for - but yet I understand that position and they express it in an intelligent, logical fashion that I can respect. Even if I disagree with their premises I can understand the logic behind the arguments.

And as a person I am pretty accepting of other people's beliefs about spirituality. I never go around thinking "that Free to Shine hasn't justified her spiritual thing to me scientifically". But then, you don't try and force an agreement with your beliefs - implicit or literal - you are just there with wise words and love and support when it is needed. Also your beliefs don't hurt anyone. I don't have to fear what happens to anyone who decides to embrace them.

I can't explain, but I do feel awful. I couldn't sleep last night - I was just tossing and turning and feeling anxious about it all. I still get that Scientology feeling that I should lock myself away from people to protect them from myself. Sometimes that includes this message board and sometimes it's people like my own kids. But you know about that - we've talked about it before.

I always thought if there was anyone I would like to be like "spiritually" (whatever that is) it was the Shaolin monks from Kung Fu. I knew it wasn't real, but people like you and many others here are sort of "Kwai Chang Caines" to me - examples of how I might grow if there is something out there.

I have had "wins" in Christianity and known a person who was thrown out of their wheelchair by an invisible force and healed. I have also seen a man sitting at the prayer line in his wheelchair long after everyone else had given up and gone home, and thought how random and unfair it all was. I tend to think one day we will find out why some of these things happen and once we do they will be as repeatable and commonplace as anything else we have learned to harness, like electricity.

Anyhow, I am rambling.

I really appreciate your voice of reason, and I do admit that I have made assumptions that may or may not be true, and that is not cool.

However, I do have "buttons" on people trying to sell snake oil to parents of children with disabilities. They are so vulnerable. They so want to believe there is a miracle out there. And they do waste lots of money. And while I am usually willing to listen to well-intentioned suggestions, and I don't automatically discard anecdotal evidence, when one is discussing a substance that is vital to correct physical development that the body simply can't produce because the genetic code for making it has been cut short, then I don't appreciate claims like "my chiropractor can cure almost anything". I just thought, "I cannot have a rational conversation with a person who believes that" and also "I'm just over it". That picture of my daughter was the reality for me, that I live. I have an uncle who is a naturopath so I do have some sympathy for alternative therapies. However, there is nothing "magical" or "natural" that will change that reality. And I'm just so tired of being lied to. Lied and lied and lied to. At least doctors don't do that. They say "you know what, it's shitty, but this is what it is. We're doing everything we can to improve on that, but that is life as we know it here and now. We are truly, truly sorry for the pain and loss you must now experience".

I can't let a lie like that stand about the tech unchallenged - that it is harmless. Purif tech kills people. Not everyone, not even most people, but that's not the point. Idle Morgue's link in the other thread to people who had suicided or gone bonkers while auditing is a testament to this.

Anyway, enough from me. Thank you for being there and accepting me and Dilpickle, with all our flaws.

:hug:
 

Dilpickle

Patron with Honors
What probably rubbed ya'll the wrong way, is YES, I am using alot of Scientology principles to try and make myself my own Bridge. My goal is to completely rehabilitate the Human and the Spirit part of myself. I no longer have the goal just to mock up hamburgers for my amusement.. I am looking for Total Freedom. Many of you have probably come to the conclusion that that is all crap. I understand that. I haven't given up yet.

I'm sure you all think I am crazy, and that it would be best for me to join the Wog World and enjoy it and quit all the poking around into an area that you all have agreed is basically worthless. Yes, I tried to sway you to my viewpoint.. but I honestly didn't know what your viewpoint was until you all started hollering about it, and then if felt like 100 hammers trying to put out any kind of enthusiasm I had for my project.

I certainly cannot say that I have it all figured out, and I may NEVER have it all figured out.. but I thought there would be some folks in here who would say YAY! GO FOR IT! And if you figure it all out, tell us about it, etc etc..

I DO wish you all well.. and I do wish myself well.. and YES, I did try to handle your objections to my project.. I don't have a Bridge to offer you all.. and even if I did, I can see why you would be reluctant to jump into my way of thinking. I'm all for whacking Ron from here to eternity.. the more I read of what he actually DID to people and how Sea Org Members and staff were treated, it is hard to believe he ever did ANYTHING right.. and perhaps you are all right about that.

Perhaps my grand schemes will Fail. I'm not promising you or myself anything.. but I am having my own brand of fun trying. So far it hasn't killed me and seems to be working.

I don't wish any harm to any of you. I feel for you. I've been there. I remember a time I was on staff at LA Org, had gotten my "pay" of $5 for the week a few days before. Someone said I needed a session of some kind, but I was not sessionable. I hadn't eaten for a day or two.. I had 7 cents in my pocket, and someone suggested I go out and buy a banana. The first banana I wanted to buy weighed in at 8 cents, so I had to go get a little bit smaller one, and ate it, and then I had my session.. which if I remember correctly, was some kind of sec check LOL

I understand your frustration.. Honestly. When I said too many people were nattering, I didn't mean when they legitimately complained about Ron or the Church.. I meant nattering at ME.. I didn't like being on the bad end of it.. I thought it was better directed at the Source of all your complaints, RON.. or the Church.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.. but I have to follow the path that feels right for me, and so do you all. I wish you so much luck and love on your Journey.. That's all I have left to say.. each time I come back to see what anyone had to say about my posts, I see alot of fussing and outrage and insults.. with some nice suggestions by some and some understanding by others mixed in.. it's just not the kind of group I feel I can flourish in.. if indeed, I am flourishing on any level at all.. I hope I am.. it feels OK to me what I am doing, and I want to continue doing it without outraging a bunch of people and getting folks stirred up..

I belong to a garden club, and they are always happy to see me.. we get along.. we enjoy each other's company.. that's what I wanted. I can hold my own when attacked.. but it becomes less and less fun when the attacks start coming from all sides. I understand the attacks.. why you are upset with me.. but I am just not enjoying this. If I continue on with my project, and I fail, and I eventually come to the conclusion that you were all right all along, I will certainly come back and thank you for trying to whack me into shape :) Love to you all.. even if you do think I am a nut. Dilpickle
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
You are the voice of reason. Thanks!

Actually when I first came to ESMB I got dog-piled by the now-retired Scientologist Claire and the active Scientologist Mark Baker. I had no freaking idea about why they were so vicious and showed up in pairs for the nasties. I guess I didn't go away, but I sure thought about it cuz it was not fun.

Claire and I now get along okay for the past year or two. We don't fight even though we don't agree on much. There is a cease-fire. :giggle:

Mark, um.....well, my CS keeps programming me to do the HPMC (Hubbard Professional Meteorologist Course) and talk about the weather. LOL.

I wasn't vicious. I was a bit annoyed with the way you talked about Scn'ists, and, frankly, I still feel similarly. I said some things to you about it, indicating disagreement and a bit of annoyance.

If you think I wrote anything "vicious" then please feel free to post or PM me with the URLs.

And anyone who'd characterize Mark B as vicious...well, I'd say words fail me but we all know that this will never happen.
 

Veda

Sponsor
What probably rubbed ya'll the wrong way,

-snip-

Who?

Me thinketh you're being a wee bit too sensitive.

Welcome.

-snip-

Happy exploring. :)

I sympathize with your vision of a sane version of "Scientology," but it wouldn't be Scientology anymore, but another subject.

Be that as it may, there are difficulties with your vision, as sometimes the seemingly benign aspects of the subject, themselves, have twists and "hooks" in them.

Still, if that's your dream, pursue it.

But first study everything you can on ESMB and other places. :)

Now, buck up, stiff upper lip, and all that, go to the Scientology technology or Freezone section and start a thread.

What could happen?:nervous::unsure::ohmy::angry::no::nervous::confused2::grouch::melodramatic::biggrin::bigcry::cheerleader::hattip::buzzin::party::woohoo::batseyelashes::love11::biglove::cheers2::pullhair::banghead::punch::hissyfit::catfight::furious::sorry::argue::blah::stickpoke::drool::boxing::stir::neener::clapping::tease::questions::sleepy::violin::hide::bowdown::notworthy::tiptoe::dizzy::headspin::bong::wife::flasher::nazi::spacecraft::depressed::hamster::flamewar::overanalyser::coffee::floor::fencing::scnsucks::bullshit::witch2::ball::smoking::blonde::arrow::aliengreeting::vacuum::gathering:
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
What probably rubbed ya'll the wrong way, is YES, I am using alot of Scientology principles to try and make myself my own Bridge. My goal is to completely rehabilitate the Human and the Spirit part of myself.
...
Dilpickle
Welcome to the real world. What you experienced was what is normally called "debate". You made a number of assertions and others decided to present alternate information.

This is normal and usual in the real world. Coming from Scientology, it can appear that you are being "attacked" because there is not and can never be any disagreement in Scientology.

You make assertions and claims that you think are totally true. Others here will have more data that you have not been allowed to see which tends to debunk your assertions and claims. This is what happens when one makes unproven assertions as if they were proven and true. You will be challenged.

You can certainly continue to believe whatever you want, no one objects to that, but your public statements will be challenged. This is not Scientology, we can do that.

Don't take it personally. We always challenge the unproven assertions and claims of Scientology.

Bill
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Welcome to the real world. What you experienced was what is normally called "debate". You made a number of assertions and others decided to present alternate information.

This is normal and usual in the real world. Coming from Scientology, it can appear that you are being "attacked" because there is not and can never be any disagreement in Scientology.

You make assertions and claims that you think are totally true. Others here will have more data that you have not been allowed to see which tends to debunk your assertions and claims. This is what happens when one makes unproven assertions as if they were proven and true. You will be challenged.

You can certainly continue to believe whatever you want, no one objects to that, but your public statements will be challenged. This is not Scientology, we can do that.

Don't take it personally. We always challenge the unproven assertions and claims of Scientology.

Bill

And sometimes we tell people they're "true believers" and are "desperately" wanting to create certain ideas and "can't cover up the truth" and that the person thinks Scn is "workable". Then come insistence of pedantry.

Now, seems to me, that those sorts of allegations (made regarding an ex Scientologist) are not really debate and do not constitute "challenge(s) (of) the unproven assertions and claims of Scientology"

There is good debate here sometimes. Lots of times. But there are also people who will tell you they are debating you in some scientific way when they're really writing a bunch of suppositions about you- that later are revealed to be incorrect.

Good luck. You're gonna need it.
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
BTW ... I didn't suggest to Dilpickle that she stick around here because those who criticized her beliefs or goals or her thought processes were necessarily "right." In fact, I think this board is composed of some pretty imperfect people who offer imperfect arguments, are imperfect writers and sometimes get butthurt.

ESMB is a board, by which I mean a group of people who've gathered online to discuss topics of common interest. And when participating in the marketplace of ideas, getting butthurt and learning how deal with one's own butthurt can be quite therapeutic.

Just my opinion -- butthurt is good for the soul, the ego or whatever ails you.

TG1
 

Krautfag

Patron Meritorious
What probably rubbed ya'll the wrong way, is YES, I am using alot of Scientology principles to try and make myself my own Bridge. My goal is to completely rehabilitate the Human and the Spirit part of myself. I no longer have the goal just to mock up hamburgers for my amusement.. I am looking for Total Freedom. Many of you have probably come to the conclusion that that is all crap. I understand that. I haven't given up yet.

I'm sure you all think I am crazy, and that it would be best for me to join the Wog World and enjoy it and quit all the poking around into an area that you all have agreed is basically worthless. Yes, I tried to sway you to my viewpoint.. but I honestly didn't know what your viewpoint was until you all started hollering about it, and then if felt like 100 hammers trying to put out any kind of enthusiasm I had for my project.

I certainly cannot say that I have it all figured out, and I may NEVER have it all figured out.. but I thought there would be some folks in here who would say YAY! GO FOR IT! And if you figure it all out, tell us about it, etc etc..

I DO wish you all well.. and I do wish myself well.. and YES, I did try to handle your objections to my project.. I don't have a Bridge to offer you all.. and even if I did, I can see why you would be reluctant to jump into my way of thinking. I'm all for whacking Ron from here to eternity.. the more I read of what he actually DID to people and how Sea Org Members and staff were treated, it is hard to believe he ever did ANYTHING right.. and perhaps you are all right about that.

Perhaps my grand schemes will Fail. I'm not promising you or myself anything.. but I am having my own brand of fun trying. So far it hasn't killed me and seems to be working.

I don't wish any harm to any of you. I feel for you. I've been there. I remember a time I was on staff at LA Org, had gotten my "pay" of $5 for the week a few days before. Someone said I needed a session of some kind, but I was not sessionable. I hadn't eaten for a day or two.. I had 7 cents in my pocket, and someone suggested I go out and buy a banana. The first banana I wanted to buy weighed in at 8 cents, so I had to go get a little bit smaller one, and ate it, and then I had my session.. which if I remember correctly, was some kind of sec check LOL

I understand your frustration.. Honestly. When I said too many people were nattering, I didn't mean when they legitimately complained about Ron or the Church.. I meant nattering at ME.. I didn't like being on the bad end of it.. I thought it was better directed at the Source of all your complaints, RON.. or the Church.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.. but I have to follow the path that feels right for me, and so do you all. I wish you so much luck and love on your Journey.. That's all I have left to say.. each time I come back to see what anyone had to say about my posts, I see alot of fussing and outrage and insults.. with some nice suggestions by some and some understanding by others mixed in.. it's just not the kind of group I feel I can flourish in.. if indeed, I am flourishing on any level at all.. I hope I am.. it feels OK to me what I am doing, and I want to continue doing it without outraging a bunch of people and getting folks stirred up..

I belong to a garden club, and they are always happy to see me.. we get along.. we enjoy each other's company.. that's what I wanted. I can hold my own when attacked.. but it becomes less and less fun when the attacks start coming from all sides. I understand the attacks.. why you are upset with me.. but I am just not enjoying this. If I continue on with my project, and I fail, and I eventually come to the conclusion that you were all right all along, I will certainly come back and thank you for trying to whack me into shape :) Love to you all.. even if you do think I am a nut. Dilpickle

I guess if you had said that before, it wouldn't have been as hard a hammering as it was. What you tried was applying HubTech to people who know it, know its shortcomings and decided that it's all bull, but still they KNOW the drill, probably a lot better than you.
So yeah, that got you a little bashing :)
Now, wipe your nose, man up (or girl up) and hang around, throw in what you find important and actually _communicate_ with people of different viewpoint, since you belief that communication is the universal solvent. It's not very likely that you will get people to agree on your viewpoints or make new fans of the tech, but it's a fun lot here with a nice amount of J&D'ing.

If you decide not to stay around, I wish you luck and happiness on your path of spiritual advancement, but I urge you to drop Scientology when you arrive at the OT III stage. Whatever worked before it, OT and all that comes with it is pure bull. Look into yoga, theosophy, whatever, but don't be a thetan hunter running Elrons case.
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
And sometimes we tell people they're "true believers" and are "desperately" wanting to create certain ideas and "can't cover up the truth" and that the person thinks Scn is "workable". Then come insistence of pedantry.

Now, seems to me, that those sorts of allegations (made regarding an ex Scientologist) are not really debate and do not constitute "challenge(s) (of) the unproven assertions and claims of Scientology"

There is good debate here sometimes. Lots of times. But there are also people who will tell you they are debating you in some scientific way when they're really writing a bunch of suppositions about you- that later are revealed to be incorrect.

Good luck. You're gonna need it.
Huh? Are you attacking me? I'm sooo upset!!! :coolwink:
 

Lone Star

Crusader
:wave: if you are leaving.

As Veda suggested, you could start your own thread. If its pro tech people like myself, anti-tech, will ignore it. Scn is supposed to be about communication. So communicate.

I have found that Scilons are terrible at communicating overall though. Another epic fail of the tech. :melodramatic:
 
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Gadfly

Crusader
What probably rubbed ya'll the wrong way, is YES, I am using alot of Scientology principles to try and make myself my own Bridge. My goal is to completely rehabilitate the Human and the Spirit part of myself. I no longer have the goal just to mock up hamburgers for my amusement.. I am looking for Total Freedom. Many of you have probably come to the conclusion that that is all crap. I understand that. I haven't given up yet.

<snip>

Dilpickle

I don't think it's all crap. Not the aim to find this elusive "spiritual freedom".

But there is a major problem here. Just because Hubbard used the phrase "total freedom", and sort of coined that slogan, doesn't mean that the idea relates to anything that Scientology can produce.

Scientology is like a kindergarten or nursery school for spiritual growth. Hopefully one does grow, but by growing out of it.

What was that song named, "Lookin' For Love In All The Wrong Places"?

Well, it is the same with Scientology. Just connect the appropriate associations of the subject & practices of Scientology with the various metaphors of the song. If you can't find them, it simply means that you are to that degree still deeply mired within the framework of Hubbard's unique and strange nomenclature and abstract ideas.

The raw reality of the claims, statements and assertions made by Hubbard have NO ACTUAL CORRELATION with his definitions and descriptions. Just LOOK! You are confusing the realm of mind (ideas, thoughts, concepts, ideals) with the realm of observable physical reality.

[video=youtube;uni6MhgaDzs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uni6MhgaDzs[/video]
 

Demented LRH

Patron Meritorious
What probably rubbed ya'll the wrong way, is YES, I am using alot of Scientology principles to try and make myself my own Bridge. My goal is to completely rehabilitate the Human and the Spirit part of myself. I no longer have the goal just to mock up hamburgers for my amusement.. I am looking for Total Freedom. Many of you have probably come to the conclusion that that is all crap. I understand that. I haven't given up yet.

I'm sure you all think I am crazy, and that it would be best for me to join the Wog World and enjoy it and quit all the poking around into an area that you all have agreed is basically worthless. Yes, I tried to sway you to my viewpoint.. but I honestly didn't know what your viewpoint was until you all started hollering about it, and then if felt like 100 hammers trying to put out any kind of enthusiasm I had for my project.

I certainly cannot say that I have it all figured out, and I may NEVER have it all figured out.. but I thought there would be some folks in here who would say YAY! GO FOR IT! And if you figure it all out, tell us about it, etc etc..
Correctly me if I'm wrong, but I was told that a person will reach a god-like state after crossing the Bridge -- as a thetan, he will be able to create his own Universe and rule it. At least this is what I heard at a Scientology seminar conducted by David Howsen. To me the state of Clear Theta Clear (God) is a product of insane mind, and a sure way to madness.
What is your definition of the Bridge?
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
And sometimes we tell people they're "true believers" and are "desperately" wanting to create certain ideas and "can't cover up the truth" and that the person thinks Scn is "workable". Then come insistence of pedantry.

Now, seems to me, that those sorts of allegations (made regarding an ex Scientologist) are not really debate and do not constitute "challenge(s) (of) the unproven assertions and claims of Scientology"

There is good debate here sometimes. Lots of times. But there are also people who will tell you they are debating you in some scientific way when they're really writing a bunch of suppositions about you- that later are revealed to be incorrect.

Good luck. You're gonna need it.
Huh? Are you attacking me? I'm sooo upset!!! :coolwink:
In case you missed that, I was riffing on the whole idea that some criticism is an attack requiring me to get all upset and go off to sulk.

Your criticisms of me (if that was what you were doing) are completely justified. In the past, I have made mistakes and said things that were not well thought out. I believe I have pissed you off royally and I apologize.

However, all that being admitted, I have not personally attacked anyone nor made bogus claims on this thread and I'm not particularly fond of the implication that I have.

Bill
 
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